Should the cross be empty?

[dsdumpling]

I've always wondered and I'm sure I'll hear the reason, why do some religions depict Jesus still on a cross. The crosses that I've seen in the Protestant churches that I've attended have empty crosses and yet the crosses that I've seen in Catholic churches that I have attened still show Jesus on the cross.

No flames http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/14/14_6_1.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001) I'm not starting trouble, just asking a simple question.

[Knight]

I've asked this question in OBOB before.....

For Catholics it is a reminder of what Christ went through for our sake.

For me, the empty cross not only reminds me of what He went through for my sake but the fact that He did not stay dead. He's alive today.

Obviously, this has never been a major point of contention between Protestants and Catholics.

[LuxPerpetua]

Actually, I think we should always have two crosses since our salvation is two-fold: We are saved from the wages of sin through Christ's sacrificial blood and we are saved from eternal death through His resurrection. Both of these aspects are important, in my opinion.

Btw, I LOVE the Calvin in your siggy. :)

[Knight]

Actually, I think we should always have two crosses since our salvation is two-fold:
But then the pulpit would be very cluttered. ;)

[InnerPhyre]

Catholic churches frequently have both crucifixes and empty crosses. There must be a crucifix at the front of the church though, because it is through Christ's death that we are saved. At Easter, however, you will frequently see empty crosses with a white garment draped over them reminding us that He is risen.

[dsdumpling]

Btw, I LOVE the Calvin in your siggy.
Thank you! I love Calvin and Hobbes!

[Lotar]

Lutheran and Anglican churches use both crosses.

[nyj]

1 Corinthians 2:2

[LuxPerpetua]

Philippians 3:10; 1 Peter 3:21 also make a good case, along with 1 Cor 2:2, for commemorating both the crucifixion and resurrection. Both of these are so intertwined that I don't see how they can be separated.

[Lotar]

Well, they are two seperate events ;)

The crucifix represents His sacrifice, the empty cross represents that He is risen. They are both good, I don't see why more churches don't use both.

[LuxPerpetua]

Yes, but you cannot have the resurrection without the crucifixion. Had Christ been just mortal, then you could have the possiblity of the crucifixion without the resurrection. Hence, the need for dual crosses. At least in my opinion. ;)

[JVAC]

Yes, but you cannot have the resurrection without the crucifixion. Had Christ been just mortal, then you could have the possiblity of the crucifixion without the resurrection. Hence, the need for dual crosses. At least in my opinion. ;)
We have an very large cross in our sanctuary behind the Altar. I really like it, however, I also would like a crucifix for the season of Lent and like events. The Cross is something that comes in so many forms and I like them all, but my favorite is the Crux Disimulata, [anchor cross]. I don't need a cross to remind me that he is risen but to me the Cross is a reminder of the suffering and not resurection. If I wanted something to remind me of ressurection I would rather a picture of the Sacred Heart [which I have].

Anyways, I'll try and include a photo so you can se what I am talking about.

-James

(P.S. There is a church in Visailia, Christ Lutheran, that has a Cross that is hollow in the middle so you can see there was a person there, and now there is not. So you get the idea that there was someone there and now there isn't.)

[ChiRho]

I am not ashamed of the very moment my sins were forgiven. Christ the Crucified, hung on a cross for me. For my sin, He did die! Praise be to Christ! When we are bitten and inflicted by the Accuser, we may look to our Bronzed Snake and be healed.

To those who commonly respond that Christ isnt there anymore...True! But wouldn't a more appropriate symbol be an empty tomb?

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

[LuxPerpetua]

And actually, I don't think the early Christians venerated the cross at all--not nearly like we do today. I've read that it wasn't until crucifixion had been done away with (and after Constantine) that the cross got taken up as a Christian symbol.

[JVAC]

And actually, I don't think the early Christians venerated the cross at all--not nearly like we do today. I've read that it wasn't until crucifixion had been done away with (and after Constantine) that the cross got taken up as a Christian symbol.

[Rechtgläubig]

I think it was Luther who said...

"Rome says we must, the Reformed says we must not, we say neither and do both."


I am comfortable with both truths being displayed. :D

[ByzantineDixie]

I think it was Luther who said...

"Rome says we must, the Reformed says we must not, we say neither and do both."



That's so Luther! :D

I surely agree with doing both but I actually like the image of the empty tomb, too...it would be good if we could do something with that. Don't know what--it would be a cool project for someone creative and artistic.

Peace

Rose

[JVAC]

It didn't show up last time so lets try again. Been having a lot of trouble here.

This is from the link I posted earlier...

[Rechtgläubig]

I actually like the image of the empty tomb, too...it would be good if we could do something with that. Don't know what--it would be a cool project for someone creative and artistic.
I like it too, but it wouldn't make a very cool necklace though. :P

[LynneClomina]

Well, they are two seperate events ;)

The crucifix represents His sacrifice, the empty cross represents that He is risen. They are both good, I don't see why more churches don't use both.

our church hasnt had any crosses until last week - someone made it and brought it to church for the first time last sunday. i dont think we need it, personally. but i like it anyways.

i dont really like cricifixes with the body on them becuase that is someone's interpretation of what He looked like, and generally the only wound is a little cut under his ribs.... what about all the slashing from the whips? etc. so i prefer an empty cross. my imagination can fill the void if God' wants me to think on His suffereing specifically. dont need to see the cross period, actually.

its not looking at the cross on the wall that is important, it's where your heart is focussed...

[LynneClomina]

It didn't show up last time so lets try again. Been having a lot of trouble here.

This is from the link I posted earlier...
i love the cross with it's silhouette....

[Col]

He is risen



Bless Ya

Col :) <><

[Rab Tull]

According to the 2nd Commandment, it should be empty.

Grace & Peace, Rab

[Rechtgläubig]

According to the 2nd Commandment, it should be empty.

I assume you are refering to...

You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.
Seems strange that you use this arguement against a crucifix, yet an empty cross is ok.

:scratch:

[Bro. Gabriel]

I'm as Protestant as you can be, and I have two crucifixes in my room. Like others said, it is a reminder of what Jesus did for me (just like the Passion movie...).

[Oblio]

http://www.churchofthenativity.net/images/explain/sml_crs.jpg

An Explanation of the Russian Orthodox Three-Bar Cross (http://www.churchofthenativity.net/explain/crsmain.html) gives details and closeups of each part of the Cross.

[Rechtgläubig]

Thanks Oblio, I always wondered about the Orthodox cross.

[ChiRho]

Wretched hater of God, I am! Sinners are we, of the greatest kinds! Constantly trying to avoid seeing the "ugly." Sure, an empty cross is fine, an empty tomb is fine, a Crucifix is fine...but of which is met with hostility? A Crucifix! The Ugly! Christ on a Cross. What does that remind you of? Our sin, our deserved torment and our deserved death. We need to be reminded of His death, constantly. For without His death, we taste ours. Praise be to the Crucified and Risen Christ!

In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit!

Amen.

[Rechtgläubig]

:clap:

[Phoebe]

Amen to ChiRho.

[JVAC]

Amen.

Christ has died!
Christ is risen!
Christ will come again!

THANKS BE TO GOD!!

-James

[Bro. Gabriel]

Another example of Believers focusing too much on petty details that really don't have that big of an effect on anything. I love my Crucifixes because they humble me every time I see them - and I am also a Baptist! Some people are way to close-minded.

[dsdumpling]

Check out my quote....

[LynneClomina]

Wretched hater of God, I am! Sinners are we, of the greatest kinds! Constantly trying to avoid seeing the "ugly." Sure, an empty cross is fine, an empty tomb is fine, a Crucifix is fine...but of which is met with hostility? A Crucifix! The Ugly! Christ on a Cross. What does that remind you of? Our sin, our deserved torment and our deserved death. We need to be reminded of His death, constantly. For without His death, we taste ours. Praise be to the Crucified and Risen Christ!

In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit!

Amen.

i find most crucifixes to be "beautiful" - they are made to be attractive, and minimize the disfigurement that would have occurred. a true cricifix would be too ugly for even most of us to handle. yet beautiful in what it represents.

i love crosses that are made of two crossed nails..... i can see them in my mind going into His hands and feet and it really affects me more than a pale figure with a little hole in their side.... it's not realistic.

[JeffreyLloyd]

Amen.

Christ has died!
Christ is risen!
Christ will come again!


One of my favorite parts of mass is this! Thanks for posting it!

[Rab Tull]

I assume you are refering to...


Seems strange that you use this arguement against a crucifix, yet an empty cross is ok.

:scratch:
It really has more to do with images of the Godhead in worship, something the Jews still understand since they use no iconography. Here's Calvin on the subject: "A true image of God is not to be found in all the world; and hence...His glory is defiled,
and His truth corrupted by the lie, whenever He is set before our eyes in a visible form.
Therefore, to devise any image of God is itself impious because by this corruption His
Majesty is adulterated, and He is figured to be other than He is."

Grace & Peace, Rab

[kimber1]

One of my favorite parts of mass is this! Thanks for posting it!agh, i was gonna say that :P i love it when we "proclaim the mysteries...." i forget the rest but i LOVE singing that part!
rock on JVAC!:clap:

[JeffreyLloyd]

The Mystery of Faith :)

[FreeinChrist]

It really has more to do with images of the Godhead in worship, something the Jews still understand since they use no iconography. Here's Calvin on the subject: "A true image of God is not to be found in all the world; and hence...His glory is defiled,
and His truth corrupted by the lie, whenever He is set before our eyes in a visible form.
Therefore, to devise any image of God is itself impious because by this corruption His
Majesty is adulterated, and He is figured to be other than He is."

Grace & Peace, Rab
Good point!

I prefer an empty cross - for it reminds of what He did for us - and how He conquered death.

[Metanoia02]

It really has more to do with images of the Godhead in worship, something the Jews still understand since they use no iconography. Here's Calvin on the subject: "A true image of God is not to be found in all the world; and hence...His glory is defiled,
and His truth corrupted by the lie, whenever He is set before our eyes in a visible form.
Therefore, to devise any image of God is itself impious because by this corruption His
Majesty is adulterated, and He is figured to be other than He is."

Grace & Peace, Rab
What part of the Bible does Calvin use for his iconoclatic view? It looks to me from reading Scripture that we are not to make idols and worship them.

[Rab Tull]

What part of the Bible does Calvin use for his iconoclatic view? It looks to me from reading Scripture that we are not to make idols and worship them.
Beware of Idolatry
Deut. 4:15 "Take careful heed to yourselves, for you saw no form when the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, 16 lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of any figure: the likeness of male or female, 17 the likeness of any animal that is on the earth or the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air, 18the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground or the likeness of any fish that is in the water beneath the earth. 19 And take heed, lest you lift your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun, the moon, and the stars, all the host of heaven, you feel driven to worship them and serve them, which the LORD your God has given to all the peoples under the whole heaven as a heritage. 20 But the LORD has taken you and brought you out of the iron furnace, out of Egypt, to be His people, an inheritance, as you are this day. 21 Furthermore the LORD was angry with me for your sakes, and swore that I would not cross over the Jordan, and that I would not enter the good land which the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance. 22 But I must die in this land, I must not cross over the Jordan; but you shall cross over and possess that good land. 23Take heed to yourselves, lest you forget the covenant of the LORD your God which He made with you, and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of anything which the LORD your God has forbidden you. 24For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.

Grace & Peace, Rab

[Metanoia02]

Beware of Idolatry
Deut. 4:15 "Take careful heed to yourselves, for you saw no form when the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, 16 lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of any figure: the likeness of male or female, 17 the likeness of any animal that is on the earth or the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air, 18the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground or the likeness of any fish that is in the water beneath the earth. 19 And take heed, lest you lift your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun, the moon, and the stars, all the host of heaven, you feel driven to worship them and serve them, which the LORD your God has given to all the peoples under the whole heaven as a heritage. 20 But the LORD has taken you and brought you out of the iron furnace, out of Egypt, to be His people, an inheritance, as you are this day. 21 Furthermore the LORD was angry with me for your sakes, and swore that I would not cross over the Jordan, and that I would not enter the good land which the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance. 22 But I must die in this land, I must not cross over the Jordan; but you shall cross over and possess that good land. 23Take heed to yourselves, lest you forget the covenant of the LORD your God which He made with you, and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of anything which the LORD your God has forbidden you. 24For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.

Grace & Peace, Rab
So according to this we can't have any images of anything. Is that the way you interparte this?

[FreeinChrist]

I would say that passage implies that the images were regarded as more than stone or wood, but as objects to be worshipped. Involved in worship.

[Rab Tull]

So according to this we can't have any images of anything. Is that the way you interparte this?
No, just images in worship, go back and take another look at the Calvin quote.

Grace & Peace, Rab

[Metanoia02]

No, just images in worship, go back and take another look at the Calvin quote.

Grace & Peace, Rab
So then we can have an image of God as long as we don't worship it? I am having trouble reconciling Calvins staement with what you quoted.

[Rab Tull]

I would say that passage implies that the images were regarded as more than stone or wood, but as objects to be worshipped. Involved in worship.

[Celeste]

[Bro. Gabriel]

Wow, some people are just really apt to get up-at-arms about any little thing. Jesus on the Cross isn't an idol.. it's reality, and it's my LORD. I don't think I recall myself ever worshipping my crucifixes, but they do humble me and give me peace and a feeling of unsurpassing, unfathomable Love.

[Bulldog]

It's only an idol if you're worshipping the object and not Jesus Christ. Or at least, that's my opinion.

[Celeste]

[Phoebe]

Graven images are three dimensional. (FYI- not implying that crosses are wrong)

I think a crucifix is appropriate during Lent or on Good Friday. I think an open/ empty cross more appropriate during the other seasons of the church year.

[Matrona]

something the Jews still understand since they use no iconography.
Excavated ruins of ancient synagogues reveal depictions of the prophets and the righteous figures in the Hebrew Scriptures.

Here's Calvin on the subject: "A true image of God is not to be found in all the world; and hence...His glory is defiled,
and His truth corrupted by the lie, whenever He is set before our eyes in a visible form.
Therefore, to devise any image of God is itself impious because by this corruption His
Majesty is adulterated, and He is figured to be other than He is."
So, in Calvin's opinion, God has adulterated His own Majesty by creating us in His image?

[Celeste]

[ChiRho]

When I first came to this part of the country and went to the local lutheran(mo. synod) church. I was aghast at seeing a cross with Christ still hanging on it. It said to me that he is dead. that is all. I told them how I felt and they took it down and put an empty cross there instead.Because I also told them that when someone new comes in it gives the wrong impression to them. The real story gose on . it dosen't stop at the cross of death. Amen!!!


Are you really Lutheran? Which Missouri-Synod church? Certainly the story goes on (Praise be to Christ!)...but our sin never ceases. Relentless are we, in our hate for God. We despise Him in all that we say, think, and do. We need to be reminded of this moment. This moment when our God sacrificed Himself for us. For my sin He did die....and for yours. Truely, He is Risen and we must remember that as well, for without the conquering of death, we have no hope! So, yes an empty cross is good and right...an image of an empty tomb is good and right....and a Crucifix, is also, meet and salutary! Let us neither hide nor flee from the unattractiveness of the Crucifix. For remember that your Lord died upon that Cross for you and the Redemption of the entire world.

Solus Christus,

ChiRho

[Oblio]

something the Jews still understand since they use no iconography.


Really ?

When the second-century synagogue at Dura Europos in modern Syria was unearthed, the wall-paintings were found in excellent condition.

http://philthompson.net/images/SynagImg.gif

http://philthompson.net/images/SynaWall.jpg

From here (http://philthompson.net/pages/faq/14.html)

[Celeste]

Are you really Lutheran? Which Missouri-Synod church? Certainly the story goes on (Praise be to Christ!)...but our sin never ceases. Relentless are we, in our hate for God. We despise Him in all that we say, think, and do. We need to be reminded of this moment. This moment when our God sacrificed Himself for us. For my sin He did die....and for yours. Truely, He is Risen and we must remember that as well, for without the conquering of death, we have no hope! So, yes an empty cross is good and right...an image of an empty tomb is good and right....and a Crucifix, is also, meet and salutary! Let us neither hide nor flee from the unattractiveness of the Crucifix. For remember that your Lord died upon that Cross for you and the Redemption of the entire world.

Solus Christus,

ChiRho

[ByzantineDixie]

Celeste, I surely understand where you are coming from. As you acknowledge we are at the same time sinner and saint, simul justus et peccator. We live within that tension. The reality is that there is no one who has perfected the balance of that tension.

Lutherans come in all varieties but I think Garrison Keillor offered one of the best descriptors..."dark" Lutherans vs. "happy" Lutherans. Like you, precious "happy" Lutheran, while I fully recognize my sin my balance swings more to reveling in my salvation...even after seeing the Passion and even though I can not to this day receive Communion without my eyes welling up in tears, I probably spend a little more time rejoicing in all that my Savior has done for me and all the saints than I spend reflecting on what my sin did to Him.

Are we "happy" Lutherans 100% right...maybe not...but the Holy Spirit continues His work with all of us, "dark" and "happy" Lutherans alike.

God bless all y'all

Rose

[nyj]

even tho I choose not to have a crucifix but a empty cross hanging on my walls and the church has an empty cross on its walls.
What amazes me is that you actually went to the ministers of your parish (were you even an official parishoner yet?) and had them remove the crucifix. Isn't that basically forcing your views on the rest of the congregation?

[Lotar]

It is, and I am amazed that the pastor would honor such a request. Since when was it the laity's place to tell the pastor what to do?

Christ died for our sins, if that fact appalls you there is something very wrong there.

[LynneClomina]

remember folks,

the fault of an offense is in you receiving it, not the other person speaking out of turn.....

beloved lettuce, love one another!

[Flynmonkie]

I've always wondered and I'm sure I'll hear the reason, why do some religions depict Jesus still on a cross. The crosses that I've seen in the Protestant churches that I've attended have empty crosses and yet the crosses that I've seen in Catholic churches that I have attened still show Jesus on the cross.


Yep. I think it should be empty. Yes he died for us.....BUT HE ROSE AGAIN!!! :clap:

However, this is another one of those areas where each individual is on their own path with God. You have no idea how God is working in others lives. I personally, would rather see it empty. While others like to see christ there every day, as some sort of a reminder. It is between you (them, me) and God in my eyes.:)

[ChiRho]

My dear lady/man. I do know my Lord Jesus Chirst died for me. Do I really have to have that before me all the time? NO for it is in my mind what He did for me. How dare you to ask me as if I am an unbleiver.. That is for your benefit not mine since I know what a sinner I am and that Christ died for me and the story gose on. he arose and is at Gods right hand in heaven where the King will judge you and me and where I am going to be. even tho I choose not to have a crucifix but a empty cross hanging on my walls and the church has an empty cross on its walls.yes, I am really lutheran and I was raised lutheran and went to lutheran school. So you comdem me!


"Do you really need to have that before you all the time?"

....we should constantly be repentant, as we are entirely sinful.

I NEVER ASKED IF YOU WERE AN UNBELIEVER....READ CAREFULLY!
I asked if you were Lutheran....Why?
Because your view and stance is radically different than the LCMS's view and stance of the Crucifix, and what is even more radical is Pastor's reaction!

As nyj and I am bound to disagree on other topics, I share completely his thoughts:

"What amazes me is that you actually went to the ministers of your parish (were you even an official parishoner yet?) and had them remove the crucifix. Isn't that basically forcing your views on the rest of the congregation?"


And again, I did not condemn you. Although I disagree with your thoughts on a Crucifix, a Crucifix is clearly an adiaphoron (greek=indifference). It is not necessary. Just as an empty Cross is not necessary. But I stand firm that a Crucifix is good and salutary! Grace and Peace to you from our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ!

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

I am one of those that likes both crucifixes and empty crosses, I have more than one of each throughout my house. They bother remind me of how I am saved and nothing less. We would not be saved if Christ had not hung on the cross and if he had not risen again then he would not have been Christ. I do not think you can have one without the other if you are going to have either. I have plans for my ribcages: the left will be a crucifiction scene and the right will be an empty tomb all done in black and grey wash. I think that it is important that both aspects be celebrated, otherwise we end up concentrating too much on part of it when both parts are necessary.

[Celeste]

[QUOTE=Luthers Rose][COLOR=DarkRed]Celeste, I surely understand where you are coming from. As you acknowledge we are at the same time sinner and saint, simul justus et peccator. We live within that tension. The reality is that there is no one who has perfected the balance of that tension.

Lutherans come in all varieties but I think Garrison Keillor offered one of the best descriptors..."dark" Lutherans vs. "happy" Lutherans. Like you, precious "happy" Lutheran, while I fully recognize my sin my balance swings more to reveling in my salvation...even after seeing the Passion and even though I can not to this day receive Communion without my eyes welling up in tears, I probably spend a little more time rejoicing in all that my Savior has done for me and all the saints than I spend reflecting on what my sin did to Him.

Are we "happy" Lutherans 100% right...maybe not...but the Holy Spirit continues His work with all of us, "dark" and "happy" Lutherans alike.

[Flynmonkie]

And again, I did not condemn you. Although I disagree with your thoughts on a Crucifix, a Crucifix is clearly an adiaphoron (greek=indifference). It is not necessary. Just as an empty Cross is not necessary. But I stand firm that a Crucifix is good and salutary! Grace and Peace to you from our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ!

Pax Christi,

ChiRho
celeste chirho---
I should add ultimately, I agree with both of you on this. These little man made nick nacks are not nessasary.....I think we should all remember this!:)

[Celeste]

What amazes me is that you actually went to the ministers of your parish (were you even an official parishoner yet?) and had them remove the crucifix. Isn't that basically forcing your views on the rest of the congregation?

[LuxPerpetua]

I hate that you are feeling attacked, Celeste. I hope that all of us who are siblings in Christ will remember Christ's bigger message of love for each other, and the comfort and gentleness that comes from love. If we're going to fight over a man-made icon, perhaps we should re-evaluate our priorities. Ultimately, whether you like a crucifix or a triumphant cross is unimportant . . . the real importance is that we all fully understand the importance of Christ's death--and according to PRE rules, we all do.

Celeste shared her story, and she is under no obligation to justify her motives in detail but only that she acted in the way she felt was best at the time.

Can we lighten up just a bit and refocus on what's really important? If we're going to get judgmental and attacking in threads like these, we should really point the finger at ourselves. John 8:7, Romans 2:1, and Matthew 22:23 seem to apply here.

I just felt like I needed to speak out. I think at the point where we start hurting others' feelings we are in the wrong and we are no longer participating in edifying discussion, even under a banner of Godliness. Neither a crucifix nor an empty cross hanging on your wall should affect your salvation. There is nothing wrong in discussing which is a more useful devotional tool, but when things start getting hurtful, that's where I personally draw the line.

:timeout:

[Flynmonkie]

Celeste shared her story, and she is under no obligation to justify her motives in detail but only that she acted in the way she felt was best at the time.

Can we lighten up just a bit and refocus on what's really important? If we're going to get judgmental and attacking in threads like these, we should really point the finger at ourselves. John 8:7, Romans 2:1, and Matthew 22:23 seem to apply here.

I just felt like I needed to speak out. I think at the point where we start hurting others' feelings we are in the wrong and we are no longer participating in edifying discussion, even under a banner of Godliness. Neither a crucifix nor an empty cross hanging on your wall should affect your salvation. There is nothing wrong in discussing which is a more useful devotional tool, but when things start getting hurtful, that's where I personally draw the line.


I agree!! You know, I am seeing this happen alot on these boards lately. As I said before, if everyone takes a step back. They will all realize that they are saying the same thing. "this is how I feel" But ULTIMATLY it really has no bearing on our eternal salvation. And bottom line it is it is just plain not edifying. Thanks so much Lux for this!:hug:

[nyj]

none of you evidently do.I only have to go on what you yourself have told me.

Jesus was persecuted in like manner at first and then it got worse.Jesus accepted the crucifixion, and faced it head on. Paul thought it was worth repeatedly contemplating too ( 1 Cor 1:23, 1 Cor 2:2, Ga 2:20). So, if St. Paul thinks it's so important, why is it so wrong?

[Celeste]

[MParedon]

Back to the Crucifix vs Empty Cross.

I like both. I perfer the Crucifix myself. When I look at it I think, 'Wow, Jesus loves me soo much, just look at all that he suffered for me.' The fact that he is risen is made all the more moving to me because I know that He suffered for me. I think that many people try to make this issue either/or: Either I celebrate the risen Christ or I recognize that Christ was crucified. Both of those things happened and they are intertwined. I don't have to forget the crucifixtion to celebrate the risen Christ. Actually b/c I remember the crucifixtion I celebrate the risen Christ more. The crucifix to me is Love. The Love Jesus has for me.


:) I tend to get carried away from time to time.

As I said I like the empty cross too. I'm going to get this little one I saw today. It has a little poem about how you keep it in your pocket and how only you and the Lord know its there. :)

[Celeste]

[ChiRho]

Celeste,

I am sorry you felt attacked, I just dont think you were. Never did I judge whether you were a Christian, in fact, I assumed you were (Please reread my post if you desire). Being a Missouri-Synod Lutheran myself, and hearing your anti-Crucifix position, I did have doubt to whether you were LCMS, so I asked. Undeniably, with your own post, you took a stance that the Crucifix was in some way offensive, or at least, of less value or worth, or ranking below an empty cross. You stated that you were "aghast" at seeing a Crucifix hung on a wall in a LCMS church. Then, you asked for the removal of the Crucifix, and to my "aghast," the Pastor obliged. Let me try to explain my position with more clarity.

From the start, I have stated that all were correct and should be used (empty tomb, empty cross, and a crucifix), with an emphasis on the importance of the Crucifix. This emphasis was due to the overwhelming unbalanced acceptance, of an empty cross over a Crucifix, in the modern evangelical churches. I feel somehow they connect a Crucifcix to Rome and start running from anything deemed "Catholic." The Crucifix is not theirs alone, do not give that to them! Let me try to lay the distinction between what reminds of given Grace and by what means God actually gives to us His Grace...

Certainly, even the very real cross that Christ was crucified on, is worthless. For upon that cross Christ was hung and salvation achieved nearly 2000 years ago, but from that physical wooden cross comes no Grace. That physical cross is mere dust. Salvation, is distributed to us, not by that physical cross, but by means...Word and Sacrament. So are any of these religious symbols necessary? Absolutely not! What do we receive directly from them? Nothing. But, are they good and right to have? Absolutely! Isnt that just like human nature, if we don't have to...we won't, and there is NO WAY YOU CAN MAKE ME! It is completely human, and completely American, so we've got it real bad 'round here! I hear this from people all the time regarding the necessity of attending church. I am sure you have heard the same,

"I dont have to go to church to be a Christian!" from people all the time.

Usually my response goes something like this,

"Well, that is true, your faith is not based on perfect attendance. But our God is not a God of confusion. Christ, places Himself where we can find Him. For if He didn't, we wouldnt know where to look! As Christians, we go to church not to give something to God, but to receive!"

He has agreed to meet us in His Holy House and give to us His Mercy and Grace. Remember, church is not a place where we give to God, but where He gives to us. Grace comes to us through the bleaching waters of Baptism. Grace comes to us from the very Words of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, through the sinful lips of my Pastor, who is standing in His stead. And finally, Grace is reckoned to me, as I grind my teeth on His True Body and as my palate is drenched with His Blood. Imputed are His Gifts to me, and I am clothed in His Righteousness.

So what is the importance of religious symbols? Well, to remind us of the Promises of Christ. To remind us that He died sufficiently in our place. When we look at a Crucifix, we should be reminded of that very moment that our Lord was murdered for our sake. It is this moment that we do not like to dwell upon. Vanity and pride cloud our vision, and we want to look away in shame. So to a Crucifix, look often and boldly admit sin!

To an empty cross or tomb, we should gaze also. We are reminded that by His Promise, that we shall also rise! Not necessary, but salutary! We should do this.

Now tell me again how this isnt necessary...and I will answer, we need reminded!!

May the Peace of the Lord be with you always!

[Celeste]

[LuxPerpetua]

"Therefore, let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block in your brother's way. As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself . . . If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. . . . Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and mutual edification. Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or TO DO ANYTHING ELSE that will cause your brother to stumble." Romans 14: 13-21.

Is there really a need to continue hurting each other, even unintentionally? Let's pray for peace and act in love, okay? :hug:

[Philip]

Salvation, is distributed to us, not by that physical cross, but by means...Word and Sacrament. So are any of these religious symbols necessary? Absolutely not!

Might I interject that religious symbols are part of the "Word"? Just as we learn from a pastoral message that explains the Scriptures, we can also learn from the message represented by a symbol. Is any one particular symbol needed? No, just as no one particular sermon is needed. However, these symbols do serve to teach us.

It is interesting to note that when an Orthodox icon is made, we say that it is written, not drawn or painted.

[Celeste]

[Flynmonkie]

That is what I was trying to do here friends.
Yes this is true!! And you did a fine job!:hug:
Problem is sometimes with these boards, the bad apples make most of us defensive at times I have been there too. So sometimes people do not realize they are saying the same thing in different ways. Even ones that are truly grounded! I try really hard to use the rule of thumb of asking what someone means before assuming. It is so hard here with so many different "ways" of expressing our thoughts and feelings.

I think everyone agrees these things are not needed. And if we are walking down the street in the secular world, we would much rather see symbols that remind us of The Good Lord than...alcohol billboards etc!!!!

[Celeste]

[Celeste]

Celeste,

I am sorry you felt attacked, I just dont think you were. Never did I judge whether you were a Christian, in fact, I assumed you were (Please reread my post if you desire). Being a Missouri-Synod Lutheran myself, and hearing your anti-Crucifix position, I did have doubt to whether you were LCMS, so I asked. Undeniably, with your own post, you took a stance that the Crucifix was in some way offensive, or at least, of less value or worth, or ranking below an empty cross. You stated that you were "aghast" at seeing a Crucifix hung on a wall in a LCMS church. Then, you asked for the removal of the Crucifix, and to my "aghast," the Pastor obliged. Let me try to explain my position with more clarity.

From the start, I have stated that all were correct and should be used (empty tomb, empty cross, and a crucifix), with an emphasis on the importance of the Crucifix. This emphasis was due to the overwhelming unbalanced acceptance, of an empty cross over a Crucifix, in the modern evangelical churches. I feel somehow they connect a Crucifcix to Rome and start running from anything deemed "Catholic." The Crucifix is not theirs alone, do not give that to them! Let me try to lay the distinction between what reminds of given Grace and by what means God actually gives to us His Grace...

Certainly, even the very real cross that Christ was crucified on, is worthless. For upon that cross Christ was hung and salvation achieved nearly 2000 years ago, but from that physical wooden cross comes no Grace. That physical cross is mere dust. Salvation, is distributed to us, not by that physical cross, but by means...Word and Sacrament. So are any of these religious symbols necessary? Absolutely not! What do we receive directly from them? Nothing. But, are they good and right to have? Absolutely! Isnt that just like human nature, if we don't have to...we won't, and there is NO WAY YOU CAN MAKE ME! It is completely human, and completely American, so we've got it real bad 'round here! I hear this from people all the time regarding the necessity of attending church. I am sure you have heard the same,

"I dont have to go to church to be a Christian!" from people all the time.

Usually my response goes something like this,

"Well, that is true, your faith is not based on perfect attendance. But our God is not a God of confusion. Christ, places Himself where we can find Him. For if He didn't, we wouldnt know where to look! As Christians, we go to church not to give something to God, but to receive!"

He has agreed to meet us in His Holy House and give to us His Mercy and Grace. Remember, church is not a place where we give to God, but where He gives to us. Grace comes to us through the bleaching waters of Baptism. Grace comes to us from the very Words of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, through the sinful lips of my Pastor, who is standing in His stead. And finally, Grace is reckoned to me, as I grind my teeth on His True Body and as my palate is drenched with His Blood. Imputed are His Gifts to me, and I am clothed in His Righteousness.

So what is the importance of religious symbols? Well, to remind us of the Promises of Christ. To remind us that He died sufficiently in our place. When we look at a Crucifix, we should be reminded of that very moment that our Lord was murdered for our sake. It is this moment that we do not like to dwell upon. Vanity and pride cloud our vision, and we want to look away in shame. So to a Crucifix, look often and boldly admit sin!

To an empty cross or tomb, we should gaze also. We are reminded that by His Promise, that we shall also rise! Not necessary, but salutary! We should do this.

Now tell me again how this isnt necessary...and I will answer, we need reminded!!

May the Peace of the Lord be with you always!

[dsdumpling]

This is just why the unbelieving world chooses to live the way they do. Why "christians" have to be so nasty I don't understand. It's time we step back and evaluate ourselves. Is this how Jesus would have treated this young lady...of course not. Well what do you think "christian" means...Christ-like.

We need to be a guiding light, people get ready, Jesus is coming!

[linda4jesus]

IMHO, the cross should be empty. When Jesus said 'it's finished' and commanded His spirit to G-D, His work on the cross was finished.

[nyj]

IMHO, the cross should be empty. When Jesus said 'it's finished' and commanded His spirit to G-D, His work on the cross was finished.
How does this reconcile with Paul's continual mentioning of the crucifixion?

[FreeinChrist]

How does this reconcile with Paul's continual mentioning of the crucifixion?
Look at the context of what Paul is saying. He is preaching Christ to unbelievers. Of course, he would mention the crucifixion - and the resurrection from the grave. In fact, most of what Paul wrote was what Christ accomplished at the cross, and His resurrection from the grave.

I prefer the empty cross because Christ accomplished what he came to do and had victory over death.

So while I do accept crosses with Christ on it to remind of of what He did for us, I think the emphasis should be on the victory over death.

In other words, the symbol of the stone rolled away from the tomb is very powerful to me. I worship a victorious Christ.

[nyj]

So while I do accept crosses with Christ on it to remind of of what He did for us, I think the emphasis should be on the victory over death.


No problem here with that. However, don't you think all Christians know how it turns out? :)

I think that Christians yearn to know of the Passion, the story of which culminates in the crucifix. Just look at how many people have flocked to The Passion of the Christ. People want to know of the crucifixion, they need to know of the crucifixion. We shouldn't turn from the sacrifice that Christ made for us, because while it has been completed, we are still sinners, and we need to be reminded of what our sins have done!

Just my opinion.

[linda4jesus]

No problem here with that. However, don't you think all Christians know how it turns out? :)

I think that Christians yearn to know of the Passion, the story of which culminates in the crucifix. Just look at how many people have flocked to The Passion of the Christ. People want to know of the crucifixion, they need to know of the crucifixion. We shouldn't turn from the sacrifice that Christ made for us, because while it has been completed, we are still sinners, and we need to be reminded of what our sins have done!

Just my opinion.
nyj,

While I don't agree that ALL christian's know how it turns out (there are some really weird sects out there:confused: ), I do agree with you about the movie ...The Passion.

The Passion has been a wonderful witenssing tool! I praise G-d for Mel Gibson's vision, the HS was really rocking on that movie! I sat through the entire movie with my hands on my face...it was so hard to watch what our Lord endured for us.

[FreeinChrist]

nyj,

While I don't agree that ALL christian's know how it turns out (there are some really weird sects out there:confused: ), I do agree with you about the movie ...The Passion.

The Passion has been a wonderful witenssing tool! I praise G-d for Mel Gibson's vision, the HS was really rocking on that movie! I sat through the entire movie with my hands on my face...it was so hard to watch what our Lord endured for us.
I agree. I do wish there was more shown of the resurrection though.

[TomUK]

I love the crucifix in my church at home- it shows the resurrected Jesus on the cross. In that one cross we see the entire message of the church; that Jesus died on the cross; that he was resurrected; that he continues to work through the cross as forgiveness for our sins. In my opinion it's very powerful and is preferrable to either an empty cross or a cross showing Christ's death.

[Flynmonkie]

This is just why the unbelieving world chooses to live the way they do. Why "christians" have to be so nasty I don't understand. It's time we step back and evaluate ourselves. Is this how Jesus would have treated this young lady...of course not. Well what do you think "christian" means...Christ-like.

We need to be a guiding light, people get ready, Jesus is coming!
AMEN! (the following is not directed at you didi)

:( You know, I just had seen the message that Celeste left that she was leaving the boards because she felt unwanted. I think anyone here that even possibly thinks they might have contributed to making her feel this way should be sending a PM with a REAL apology and right quick.

:scratch: When I first arrived here I watched this board for a few weeks and I had seen alot of this childish ganging up on people. I mean come on! I still see it and it is just plain ignorant. Uneducated, childish insecurity.:sigh: I know many whom agree, I am just sick and tired of seeing it.

I don't blame her because I do not see how it is edifying to have your opinion which I think was VERY fair, nit picked to death. It is just crazy.:rolleyes:

I am a really reasonable and easy going person until I see this. Sometimes I guess I am hard on Christians because we should KNOW better than this.:sigh: But I guess this is not always the case, as that I have no idea how God is working through others.

I have sent a PM to Celeste asking her not to leave and hoping she is encouraged enough to stay. I enjoy her posts, and I want her to feel welcome as I would anyone - even if I do not agree with something that ULTIMATLY does not affect ANYONES Salvation. And in fact, I also agreed with her statement.....she gave her preference and why.....but said.....it does not MATTER! That should be the end of it.

If you do not do this you should be ashamed.:(

This really makes me sad.:cry: Christians treating other Christians like this....it is nonsense.

[Buccaneer]

[Buccaneer]

The Catholic church uses alot of symbols they should. Firstly, I forget where , but if I can ill find a passage about how youre not supposed to hold messiah up on the cross and subject him to all that he went through already. Second, In addition to the normal cross, the Pope has been seen with bent crosses and inverted crosses which are textbook satanic symbols. Not saying it means anything, but finally, it is sort of close to idol worship in a way? Im not trying to knock anyone down, but these are just my views on the subject

[Buccaneer]

sorry double post.

[nyj]

In addition to the normal cross, the Pope has been seen with bent crosses and inverted crosses which are textbook satanic symbols.
1. The bent cross? Are you referring to the Papal Crucifix which Pope John Paul II uses as his Bishops staff? (See first attachment) That doesn't appear to be a satanic symbol to me.

2. The inverted cross represents St. Peter, who Catholics regard as the first Pope. The Pope is said to reside in the Chair of Peter. (See second attachment).

"The Alexandrian scholar Origen (d. 256) is the first to report that St. Peter 'was crucified head downward, for he had asked that he might suffer in this way' (Eusebius, History, III, 1)."

[Jesus My Wisdom]

I've always wondered and I'm sure I'll hear the reason, why do some religions depict Jesus still on a cross. The crosses that I've seen in the Protestant churches that I've attended have empty crosses and yet the crosses that I've seen in Catholic churches that I have attened still show Jesus on the cross.



Well, if you want to depict a risen Jesus instead put up a picture of a stone rolled away.

An empty cross does not mean a risen man. It simply means they have taken him down and put him in a tomb.

JMW

[Flynmonkie]

1. The bent cross? Are you referring to the Papal Crucifix which Pope John Paul II uses as his Bishops staff? (See first attachment) That doesn't appear to be a satanic symbol to me.

2. The inverted cross represents St. Peter, who Catholics regard as the first Pope. The Pope is said to reside in the Chair of Peter. (See second attachment).

"The Alexandrian scholar Origen (d. 256) is the first to report that St. Peter 'was crucified head downward, for he had asked that he might suffer in this way' (Eusebius, History, III, 1).":prayer:

Ok. This is really bugging me....I have thought about it all day, as that I am not Catholic and I am still learning your ways. As you know I am not too hip on any Man Made "reminder" But I can understand it when it comes to all the worldly things that are out there to Hang on your wall or decorate, I would rather see something as a reminder of Christ, and my Christian walk.

However, If I had seen #2 anywhere, just to let you know, it would not be attributed to anything having to do with Christianity. AT ALL. I don't care whom said what. It is really offensive to me. Since we are all offering our opinions.

:scratch: I still don't get the bent cross deal, but this is not as offensive as the upside down one.

I guess one thing I am a stickler on is presentation. How important it is for us to display an easily understood representation of Christ. Mostly with our mannerisms, the way we live our lives. However, crosses and things of that nature are ok. But when you come up with symbols that no longer make it easy for a non-believer to understand, or cause confusion. That is where I become upset.:( We are not to be stumbling blocks for non-believers. And if someone had seen this on your wall etc... I doubt very seriously they will even ask you what in the world because it is a well known universal symbol for $@t@nism. :eek: Not to mention if they have no clue about Christ, how in the WORLD are they going to know about Paul??:confused:

Does this not bother you in the least? Just out of curosity?

[Ann M]

:prayer:

Ok. This is really bugging me....I have thought about it all day, as that I am not Catholic and I am still learning your ways. As you know I am not too hip on any Man Made "reminder" But I can understand it when it comes to all the worldly things that are out there to Hang on your wall or decorate, I would rather see something as a reminder of Christ, and my Christian walk.

However, If I had seen #2 anywhere, just to let you know, it would not be attributed to anything having to do with Christianity. AT ALL. I don't care whom said what. It is really offensive to me. Since we are all offering our opinions.

:scratch: I still don't get the bent cross deal, but this is not as offensive as the upside down one.

I guess one thing I am a stickler on is presentation. How important it is for us to display an easily understood representation of Christ. Mostly with our mannerisms, the way we live our lives. However, crosses and things of that nature are ok. But when you come up with symbols that no longer make it easy for a non-believer to understand, or cause confusion. That is where I become upset.:( We are not to be stumbling blocks for non-believers. And if someone had seen this on your wall etc... I doubt very seriously they will even ask you what in the world because it is a well known universal symbol for $@t@nism. :eek: Not to mention if they have no clue about Christ, how in the WORLD are they going to know about Paul??:confused:

Does this not bother you in the least? Just out of curosity?

OKay flyminkie, to get to the heart of this problem I will pose a question for you:-

My sister-in-law's name is Gayleen, but she is refered to as Aunty Gay, she is heading towards 50 and has held this name for a longtime, but the meaning of this word has changed since she was born from being universally accepted as another word for happy, to now meaning homosexual. As she is a Happy person and not a homosexual should she change her name as it doesn't suit the current meaning?

[Flynmonkie]

OKay flyminkie, to get to the heart of this problem I will pose a question for you:-

My sister-in-law's name is Gayleen, but she is refered to as Aunty Gay, she is heading towards 50 and has held this name for a longtime, but the meaning of this word has changed since she was born from being universally accepted as another word for happy, to now meaning homosexual. As she is a Happy person and not a homosexual should she change her name as it doesn't suit the current meaning?
Hi Ann!:wave:
Ha Ha! I have an uncle Gaylord too.......trust me...he is a very strong southern man, not a man of many words, and everything was fine until we were about 4 or 5 calling him Uncle Gay-Gay! EEK!:eek: Needless to say, we don't do this anymore! I know exactly what you mean!^_^

However, he is a man, just as your aunt is a woman. Both Human. I am concerned that it is a representation of God himself. See what I mean? :scratch:

Sure, perception is key, but as a Christian you should be aware of this and not even give the oppourtunity for confusion in this matter. That does not excuse us as Christians to continually try to walk in the light. If you know something might be misleading, I try to refrain. It is hard enough to walk in that light every day in a Christian manner, as that we are sinners by nature. Keeping our actions in check is enough, and those can confuse more than anything. Why add any more things to confuse in the mix?:)

[Ann M]

The inverted cross was first associated with sataism by the Reformation, when the Pope was called the anti-christ and Rome the Synagogue of satan. Do these two 'symbols' still hold these titles? I, personally, have not come across them in recent times, and it is through perservance and preservation that this has occured.

The power is in you to make a difference. I have a couple of goths who visit quite regularly, and i have no problems pointing out to the the meaning of their symbols. Hitler tried to make the Star of David a shameful label, but today Jews celebrate their faith with it, Belief in Good can conquer evil.

[Flynmonkie]

The inverted cross was first associated with sataism by the Reformation, when the Pope was called the anti-christ and Rome the Synagogue of satan. Do these two 'symbols' still hold these titles? I, personally, have not come across them in recent times, and it is through perservance and preservation that this has occured.

The power is in you to make a difference. I have a couple of goths who visit quite regularly, and i have no problems pointing out to the the meaning of their symbols. Hitler tried to make the Star of David a shameful label, but today Jews celebrate their faith with it, Belief in Good can conquer evil.
I had no idea that this was the case, thsi symbol was pre-existing as in the star of David. Yes, while just researching your Duterocanon, I just have found sites that link this Rome/Pagan issue. This is also something I have never heard. All new to me. I guess I had better research this more. I had the same concerns about the Mary Statue in front of Catholic buildings, I asked about this in the OBOB forum. I felt the same way about that as I do this however.

I am surprised that $@t@nism can be derived from Reformation. Do you have a good site for research on this one?

[Ann M]

No, but I will check into it for you.

i came across this while researching the popes. In 1582 Pope Gregory XVIII revised the "julian" calendar omitting 10 in October 1582 to correct errors that had crept in over the centuries and introduced a new method of calculating leap years to prevent new errors. Many protestants saw this as a device of the Antichrist to subject the world to the devil, and co-incidentally the Pope's coat of arms included a dragon, seized upon as one omen. this calendar was not accepted in England until 1752.

[Flynmonkie]

You know I have to say, before I started researching I asked for some reading and research material. Had been told a few books that were very good. All three books are apparently about this issue. One written in the 1800s. I had not started reading them yet, I assumed they were regarding the Reformation and I also assumed they were one sided. But I had not broached this subject at the time. I guess I did not put 2 and 2 together until I started researching that you have 7 more books in your bible than we do. I keep hitting sites about this same subject. These books are mentioned. I have tried to discuss on here some have mentioned the titles, but the threads get deleted! So I guess I will have to read them myself. It concerns me, I am researching all of this though. I had no idea the depth of the issues such as these.

Thanks!

[Caedmon]

Either is acceptable. But I prefer this message:

"For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified."
- I Corinthians 2:2

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Either is acceptable. But I prefer this message:

"For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified."
- I Corinthians 2:2

I used that exact verse when I presided, for the communion mediation. It was about 6 lines. I had this big piece written up, almost a mini-sermon and my Bible fell open to it. I was stunned and humbled. So for the meditation I said a little about the piece I had written, and then the humilty I felt upon seeing one single verse. My closing line was "So as we prepare to receive the body and blood of our Saviour, I stand here and profess to know nothing save Christ and Him crucified". I was nearly in tears saying it, it was so humbling and wonderful. I know this is off topic but I had to share.

[Carlos Vigil]

I prefer Jesus Christ Crucified because that is how St. Paul presented Him. (Gal.3:1 &
1 Cor. 2:2...but more importantly, there were many crosses in Jerusalem at the time
and an empty cross could be anybody's cross. (not named,nondenominational)
Christ Crucified is ONCE AND FOR ALL FOR ALL TIME=DIENEKES,grk.
His death "reaches back in time indefinitely, and forward in time indefinitely"
The meaning of "DIENEKES"

[Flynmonkie]

I was nearly in tears saying it, it was so humbling and wonderful. I know this is off topic but I had to share.
Isn't it just the coolest feeling in the world? How he gives you exactly the words you need when you need them, even when you don't even know your asking!!!:hug: Never lets me down either, and this exact same thing happend to me when I was at a very crucial point in my faith and my life. The Book I was reading opened to the exact pages. Not too long before that if you were to have told me this, I would have been "Oh, thats nice:confused: :scratch: :rolleyes: ". Its a whole different ballgame when it happens to you. Praise Him!:clap: :D :prayer:

I also wanted to add, Ann had said:
Belief in Good can conquer evil.
I think for this thread, it is a good thing to remember, Greater than he that is in ME than he that is in the WORLD! No matter with any of these man-made things Ann is right, God can work wonders with anything. I did not want to make it look as if he cannot. Mans perceptions can muddy up anything!

BTW thanks for you help!

[ChiRho]

This is just why the unbelieving world chooses to live the way they do.

Really? What do you mean by "choosing to live the way they do?" If you mean to remain in unbelief, then surely you are mistaken. It is the sin of each unbeliever, their rejection of Christ and His Promises, that keep thier hearts hardened. Remember, we do not save anyone....God saves us! No matter how hard we try, we cannot thwart the plan of God. We are not Christ. We cannot do what Christ did or continues to do. Therefore, the unbeliever must be directed to Christ, and not our thoughts, words or deeds to determine the validity of Truth. Do unbelievers think Christians are a-holes? Of course, but I would say, it is because of Christians who try to interject Law (that which is specifically commanded of or forbidden) into the Gospel (Promises of Christ) and pervert the message. When one uses the Law to truely reflect our sinful state and bring condemnation, the Law is used correctly. The Gospel then brings the good news of our salvation, through Jesus Christ our Lord, and the believer is brought from despair to peace, as one trusts Christ's Promises to be true for the believer. But when Christians add Law to the pure Gospel, masked as easily accomplishable rules that are necessary for salvation or identifying a "real" Christian, they direct the assurance of salvation inward, to their own thoughts, words, or actions. The result? An unachievable standard which no Christian actually lives up to, and no honest unbeliever would even attempt, knowing the lie before they even try. Ofcourse we do not render the Law useless for the believer, and ought to keep the Law, but we cant. And we won't. No matter the effort put forth, because we are haters of God and His ways. Sinful indeed. That is why Christ died for the redemption of the world and for each of us.

Why "christians" have to be so nasty I don't understand. It's time we step back and evaluate ourselves.

Could you cite something that was nasty? Please be specific and if it came from me, I will be the first to offer an apology and a retraction. I do not believe this was a case of "Christian nastiness." I think, rather unfortunately, it might be a case of hyper-sensitivity and self-victimization.


Is this how Jesus would have treated this young lady...of course not.

This I believe, is nonsense. Are you Christ? Am I? Let us not think for one moment that we can assume the role of God and answer this.

Well what do you think "christian" means...Christ-like.

I believe we must define "Christian" by Scripture (being the only authority by which to define Truth). A Christian is one, who by the Grace of God, has been imputed such faith that believes Christ to be True God/True Human and the One who perfectly fulfilled the Law and provided the perfect Sacrifice as Atonement for the sin of the world and for the believer individually. A Christian also must believe that He rose from the dead and ascended into Heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty. Without reciting the entire creed, one must believe in the Triune God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and that God is the sole cause for our Justification and Sanctification. God creates and sustains the saving faith of a Christian. The Christian offers nothing on his own, outside of sin.


We need to be a guiding light, people get ready, Jesus is coming!


Please do not spend your time "getting ready" or "getting your life in order," you are sinful now and will be when you die. Instead, repent of your sins and trust in the Promises of Christ that you are forgiven. Truely, Come Lord Jesus. Amen.


I do feel bad about misunderstanding, but one must be an advocate of Truth when one can.

"Whereof one can speak, thereof one must not be silent"

John Warwick Montgomery


Pax Christi,

ChiRho

[ByzantineDixie]

I do feel bad about misunderstanding, but one must be an advocate of Truth when one can.

"Whereof one can speak, thereof one must not be silent"

John Warwick Montgomery


Just a couple of quick comments on this...for all of us--myself most of all.

We do need to speak the truth...in love. Often the "in love" aspect is insulated by the inadequacies of the receivers ability to hear tone and see body language in these messages. So it is important that we choose our words carefully to compensate for the inherent deficiencies in this medium. It's true...some folks are more sensitive than others but a quickly placed apology and gentler re-explanation helps when the receiver is wounded by the comments.

Then...we really need to determine whether or not we are speaking the truth in love or whether we are attempting to make our point more than we are attempting to communicate "in love". Let's remember to check our motives with each post.

And lastly a comment for ChiRho.

This thread is about the crucifix vs. the cross. As I see it, these are man-made symbols, adiaphora, and, accordingly, there is no truth associated with either being more correct. Would you agree? (You may have said this earlier--but I haven't waded through the old posts.)

I still love (and talk about) the post (can't remember if Theo or Recht posted it) about Luther saying "Rome says we must. The Reformed say we must not. We say neither and do both!" I love Luther's ability to legitimize paradox.

Peace y'all.

Rose

[ChiRho]

Wade through...I have said they are adiaphora, more than once I think...but I was defending the meet and salutary use of all three, emphasizing the Crucifix, to counter the common modern evangelical view that, the Crucifix, is somehow less (or flat out wrong) than the other two.

Pax Christi,

ChiRho