Attn. all Lutherans (yeah, that's probably half the board!)

[LuxPerpetua]

I don't know much at all about Lutheranism (I was raised and baptized a Baptist but due to life circumstances I've also attended both an Episcopal church and a Church of Christ in the last two years) so I was wondering, could you please tell me more about what Lutheranism is like?

Also, if you know, how do your services differ from the Episcopal church?

If you join a Lutheran church, but have been baptized in a mainstream Protestant denomination, will you need to be rebaptized?

Is there a difference between Evangelical Lutheranism and just plain ol' Lutheranism?

What is the Lutheran position on Mary, communion of the saints, and relics?

What sacraments does the Lutheran church recognize?

Is the Lutheran position on salvation that we are saved by grace through faith (and through true faith comes love and the works of love) or do they think that we are saved by just our faith regardless of works?

Does the Lutheran church have "priests and bishops" or "pastors" (referring to titles here)?

What type of training do Lutheran clergy undergo to be qualified to be clergy?

Do Lutherans allow female clergy? Or gay clergy?

How does one convert to Lutheranism (confirmation, reconfirmation, classes, etc.)?

That's probably enough now. ;) The Lutheran church is sounding pretty good about now, so I'm trying to keep all my options open.

Thanks!

[Phoebe]

Oh, if only it weren't almost 9 pm! Lotar and Theo are also looking at this thread.

The ELCA ordains women. We are probably closest to Episcopal, we are in Communion with them. (ecumenical)
We recognize Baptism and Holy Communion as Sacraments.

Gay clergy may be allowed, but are not to be involved in a homosexual relationship.
You wouldn't have to be rebaptized.

[Lotar]

I don't know much at all about Lutheranism (I was raised and baptized a Baptist but due to life circumstances I've also attended both an Episcopal church and a Church of Christ in the last two years) so I was wondering, could you please tell me more about what Lutheranism is like.

Also, if you know, how do your services differ from the Episcopal church? I don't know, I've never been to an Episcopal service. I hear that they are similiar.


If you join a Lutheran church, but have been baptized in a mainstream Protestant denomination, will you need to be rebaptized?
All Trinitarian baptisms are valid.


Is there a difference between Evangelical Lutheranism and just plain ol' Lutheranism?
They're the same thing. The Lutheran Church was originally called the Evangelical Church, so some just say Lutheran and some say Evangelical Lutheran.


What is the Lutheran position on Mary, communion of the saints, and relics?
Mary is the Mother of God. I think that's about as far as we go with that.

The saints pray for us while in heaven, but we do not know whether or not they pray individuals or if they hear prayers to them. If someone wants to pray to Mary or saints they are not forbidden, but it is not taught or encouraged.

Relics, images, statues, ect. are allowed and may be usefull, but they contain no power, grace, ect.


What sacraments does the Lutheran church recognize?
It matters how broadly the term is defined. We tend to think of it as only those instituted by Christ, ie baptism and communion. But if defined more broadly there is confession, marriage, ect. Basically the same as Catholic and Orthodox.


Is the Lutheran position on salvation that we are saved by grace through faith (and through true faith comes love and the works of love) or do they think that we are saved by just our faith regardless of works?
A person who is unrepentant will not be saved, nor is it possible to have true saving faith without works. There is never faith without works, but it is faith that justifies us, not works.

A believer can lose their salvation either by coming to believe that they can do whatever they want because"God will forgive them," or because they come to believe tat they are good enough to earn heaven without Christ.


Does the Lutheran church have "priests and bishops" or "pastors" (referring to titles here)?
Instead of priests we have pastors. Priests are from the old covenant, we now have the priesthood of the believer. Some synods, like ECLA, have bishops, others will have pastors who have the same role but not the name, mostly because of today's common definition.

The Lutheran Church retains the biblical church structure of elders(pastors), bishops, ect. Individual churches are not atonomous, and are accountable to the synod.


What type of training do Lutheran clergy undergo to be qualified to be clergy?
A rather rigorous seminary. They usually have a degree in theology, and read Greek and Hebrew.


Do Lutherans allow female clergy? Or gay clergy?
ECLA has female clergy, LCMS and WELS do not. None will actively allow gay clergy.


How does one convert to Lutheranism (confirmation, reconfirmation, classes, etc.)?
There are classes to take, I don't know much about them as I was raised in the Church. Kids take confirmation classes during Middle School.


That's probably enough now. ;) The Lutheran church is sounding pretty good about now, so I'm trying to keep all my options open.

Thanks!
Glad to help out. :wave:

[theologia crucis]

LuxPerpetua,

...if you know, how do your services differ from the Episcopal church?

I'm not sure. I haven't been to an Episcopal church. However, traditional Lutheran services are very liturgical, and there are many congregations that still follow the historic service, though there are many that are becoming more and more contemporary.

If you join a Lutheran church, but have been baptized in a mainstream Protestant denomination, will you need to be rebaptized?

No. We accept any baptism at any age as long as it was Trinitarian in formula (in the name of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit). As the Creed says: "we believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins".

Is there a difference between Evangelical Lutheranism and just plain ol' Lutheranism?

Ideally, ALL Lutheranism is Evangelical. Lutherans were the first group in history to be called "Evangelical". Ideally, you should hear Christ and Him crucified at every single worship service (i.e., the Evangel).

What is the Lutheran position on Mary, communion of the saints, and relics?

We honor Mary, but we do not pray to her to intercede for us. We believe in the communion of saints (as the creeds say). How do we define this?

169. What is the holy Christian church?

The holy Christian church is the communion of saints, the total number of those who believe in Christ. All believers in Christ, but only believers, are members of the church (invisible church).

170. Why do you say, "I believe" in the church?

A. Because faith, which makes people members of the church, is invisible, the church is invisible to human eyes

B. The Scriptures assure us that the Holy Spirit continues to gather and preserve the church.

171. Why do you say, I believe in "the" church?

There is only one church, one spiritual body of believers (saints), whose one and only head is Christ.

172. Why is the church called "holy"?

It is made up of holy people (saints), believers who have been cleansed by the blood of Christ and who serve God with holy living.

173. Why is the church called "Christian"?

It belongs to Christ and is built on Him alone.

174. Where is this holy Christian church to be found?

The holy Christian church is to be found where "the Gospel is preached in its purity and the holy sacraments are administered according to the Gospel" (Augsburg Confession VII 1). The Gospel and the sacraments are called the "marks of the church."

175. In what other senses is the word church used?

The word church is also used to indicate

A. the visible church of God

B. a denomination;

C. a local congregation;

D. a house of worship.

176. Why does Scripture call local congregations "church"?

Local, visible gatherings around the means of grace are called churches because there believers are gathered around Word and sacrament.

177. What is the visible church?

The visible church is the whole number of those who use the Word of God and profess the Christian faith, but among whom, beside the true Christians, there are also unbelievers.

178. Are there then two churches, one visible and the other invisible?

There is only one church--all believers in Christ. The visible gathering is called church because of the believers gathered around the means of grace in an assembly in which there are also hypocrites.

179. What do the Scriptures teach about our life in the church?

They teach that

A. we should seek always to be and remain members of the invisible church, Christ's body, by sincere faith in Christ, our Savior;

B. we should be faithful to that visible church, or denomination, which professes and teaches all of the Bible's doctrine purely and administers the sacraments
according to Christ's institution;

C. we should avoid false teachers, false churches, and all organizations that promote a religion that is contrary to God's Word;

D. we should maintain and extend God's church by telling others about Jesus Christ, by personal service, and by prayer and financial support.

(From Luther's Small Catechism with Explanation, CPH, St. Louis, 1991; Scripture references omitted for brevity).

Lutherans do not believe relics confer grace or merit the forgiveness of sins (which comes through Christ alone; I'm not sure best how to answer, but, in short, we don't believe in them).

What sacraments does the Lutheran church recognize?

Two, Holy Baptism and the Lord's Supper.

Is the Lutheran position on salvation that we are saved by grace through faith (and through true faith comes love and the works of love) or do they think that we are saved by just our faith regardless of works?

The Lutheran position on justification is that we are saved by God's grace [gratuitis Dei favor] alone, through faith alone [sola fide], for Christ's sake [propter Christum].

From the Epitome of the Formula of Concord (one of the Lutheran Confessions):

...the whole Christ, according to both natures, is our righteousness, solely in his obedience that he rendered his Father as both God and a human being, an obedience unto death. Through this obedience he earned the forgiveness of sins and eternal life for us...

...we believe, teach, and confess that our righteousness before God consists in this, that God forgives us our sins by sheer grace, without any works, merit, or worthiness of our own, in the past, at present, or in the future, that he gives us and reckons to us the righteousness of Christ’s obedience and that, because of this righteousness, we are accepted by God into grace and regarded as righteous.

We believe, teach, and confess that faith alone is the means and instrument through which we lay hold of Christ and, thus, in Christ lay hold of this “righteousness which avails before God.” Because of him “faith is reckoned to us as righteousness” (Rom. 4[:5]).

We believe, teach, and confess that this faith is not a mere knowledge of the stories about Christ. It is instead a gift of God, through which in the Word of the gospel we recognize Christ truly as our redeemer and trust in him, so that solely because of his obedience, by grace, we have the forgiveness of sins, are regarded as godly and righteous by God the Father, and have eternal life.

Robert Kolb, The Book of Concord : The Confessions of the Evangelical Lutheran Church (Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 2000).

Does the Lutheran church have "priests and bishops" or "pastors" (referring to titles here)?

Parish or congregational leaders are called pastors. Some branches (ELCA, for example) have bishops in their ecclesiastical hierarchy. The LCMS has presidents. I'm not sure what the WELS has.

What type of training do Lutheran clergy undergo to be qualified to be clergy?

I'm not sure what ELCA and WELS pastors go through, but LCMS pastors generally have an undergraduate degree, and then go into the Seiminary for four years, were they learn Greek at a minimum, and many learn Hebrew as well, with all the other various and sundries as well (homeletics, church history, the Lutheran Confessions, pastoral theology, etc.). They also have a vicarage year, where they train in existing congregations.

Do Lutherans allow female clergy? Or gay clergy?

The ELCA allows female clergy (one of my best friends is one). The LCMS and WELS do not. None allow actively homosexual clergy, though I think there has been at least rougue one attempt to ordain a gay clergyperson in the ELCA.

How does one convert to Lutheranism (confirmation, reconfirmation, classes, etc.)?

Most have new member classes, varying in length. When my wife converted me from ELCA to LCMS, I went through four classes. It varies from parish to parish.

Good luck on church hunting. I'm sure we'll be happy to answer any further questions you might have.

Here's an article that kind of talks about the Lutheran relationship to other churches:

http://www.touchstonemag.com/docs/issues/11.3docs/evangelical%2C%20confessional.html

Lutherans are confessional, that is, we don't mind telling the world exactly what we believe and why we believe it, on the basis of Scripture alone [sola Scriptura].

You can find our confessions here:

www.bookofconcord.org

The LCMS website (www.lcms.org) has a bunch of FAQ's you can find answers to many questions. The others (www.elca.org & www.wels.net) have similar stuff as well.

Peace to you through Christ alone!

[Phoebe]

ELCA pastors also get a college degree and have four years of Seminary. I think Hebrew and Latin are taught, maybe Greek, too. ???



I've been to an Episcopal service once, and that was on Good Friday. Our church had a joint service with St. Martin's. We used the common cup for Communion. I think the Episcopal church uses the Catholic Bible. Lutheran's do not.

[ethereal hope]

I just opted out of the Episcopal church (due to the recent turmoil), but am very familiar with that denom (and go to an Anglican catholic church now), and I grew up in a Lutheran church.

Imo, the Lutherans and Episcopalians are very similar in practice, and the biggest noticeable difference is that you're not going to see as much "genuflecting" (crossing yourself, kneeling at the pew, etc) in a Lutheran church as you will in Episcopal. Otherwise, the songs and liturgy are close, as are the beliefs.

In fact, when I'm out-of-town, I've been able to muster through services at both Episcopal and Lutheran churches without flipping through bulletins and prayer books. You'll even know the songs. They're SO similar that when they say, "Let us pray", you'll drop to your knees before you realize they don't have kneelers, possibly leaving you with a bruised chin.

[Rechtgläubig]

I'm not sure what ELCA and WELS pastors go through, but LCMS pastors generally have an undergraduate degree, and then go into the Seiminary for four years, were they learn Greek at a minimum, and many learn Hebrew as well, with all the other various and sundries as well (homeletics, church history, the Lutheran Confessions, pastoral theology, etc.). They also have a vicarage year, where they train in existing congregations.


It is pretty much the same for WELS I believe. They generally have to learn Greek, Hebrew, Latin, and German. I think everything else you listed is that same.


Most have new member classes, varying in length. When my wife converted me from ELCA to LCMS, I went through four classes. It varies from parish to parish.

I think from a non-Lutheran to Lutheran conversion (in WELS) it is anywhere from 8-20 classes. Mine was about 15 weeks (1 hour long class a week). My "Baptistish" wife went along because she planned on setting the pastor straight and after a few fights she ended up finishing the classes with me and became a member when I did. lol :clap:

[JVAC]

It is usually less rigorous to get into an ELCA congregation than LCMS or WELS. I only had to take two classes that were about an hour long [winks at Recht].

I want to say, never is a Lutheran into 'rebaptism'; they loath the concept. Baptism is the focal point of Lutheran life. "Every morning when you rise make the sign of the Cross in memory of your baptism..." "Every night when you go to bed make the sign of the cross in memory of your baptism and to whom you belong" [small catechism]. The Lutheran church holds that the baptized individual is given the Christian Liberty.

As was said, the Lutheran liturgy is almost the same as the Anglican services, also it is quite similar to Catholic liturgy. Luther reformed the Catholic Mass and since then the Lutherans have been using that same Mass. That is why we all begin with the Introit and proceed to the kyrie, Gloria in Excelsis Deo etc. Liturgy is usually kept in its historic setting. There are some "contemporary services" in the Lutheran Church, yet they are held to retain certain aspects of the historic liturgy, ex: confession, great thanksgiving, verba, collects, etc. Basically the difference you will see between a traditional service and a contemporary is the pastor's attire and instead of singing out of the Green Hymnal you'll sing out of the blue one [wink]

The main thing I like about the ELCA is that it not only has Bishops but Bishops in the Apostolic Succession. To me, that is important. I really think Christ wanted the Apostles in charge of the Church, and the Bishops are our modern Apostles, chosen by Apostles to be so. We reject the notion of the office making them infallable, yet we do acknowledge thier divine right to do the work of Bishops as Bishops.

The Lutheran Church is a Word and Sacrament Church. That is, grace is given to an individual through means of both Word (preaching/Scripture) and the Sacraments (Baptism/Communion). The Word and Sacraments are tools used by the Holy Spirit to accomplish salvation, that is, they help instil faith. This makes faith an act of God and not an act of Man, for if the Word and Sacraments were void of a man's life, he could not come to know and trust in God. Sacramental Grace is where most of the protestant churches have a problem with us. I just think they don't take the time to fully understand "Sacramental grace". [Sacramental Grace is mostly reliant on the Word of God inside the Sacrament]

The Lutheran Church also does do confession. We confess our sins, and the ordained Pastor absolves the congregation of those sins in the name of Christ. Confession is not a Sacrament, according to the Lutheran deffinition, but it is a rite along with marriage, confirmation, unction, ordination and pennitence. Now Ordination can only, in the ELCA, happen from the Bishop. A Bishop only may ordain celebate men and women, unless they be married, who have completed Seminary and training. [Naturally this means that if one was a homosexual they must be celebate, if they are practicing they cannot are not ordained.] Marriage is only between a man and a woman.

This is all I can think of right now, but I'll post later if I can think of something.

-James

[ChiRho]

if you are serious about becoming Lutheran, I suggest visiting your local Lutheran churches and asking the pastors of the churches these questions. Besides, you can probably receive a Small Catechism book which would benefit you greatly. If you cannot, for some strange reason, find Luther's Small Catechism anywhere, email me your address and I will send you one. Lutheranism stands alone, in doctrine and theology. True Lutheranism is synonomous with Christianity-they cannot be separated.

One great pastor (Pastor Brondos, Historic Zion Evanglical Lutheran Church LCMS) once said the following:

"Lutheranism is like driving a car with all the lugnuts securely tightened and wheels aligned, while other denominations may be out of alignment or missing lugnuts (some obviously missing more than others). Which car would you rather speed down this road of life in?"

I think it works...

Grace and Peace to you from God our Father and from His Son, Jesus Christ!

[Lotar]

Is the Lutheran position on salvation that we are saved by grace through faith (and through true faith comes love and the works of love) or do they think that we are saved by just our faith regardless of works?

Here's a pretty good explaination for you :) :


Let us bring this whole discussion of law, gospel, and faith together under several theses:
1. The law is the doctrine that commands what is and what is not to be done.
2. The gospel is the promise of the grace of God.
3. The law demands impossible things such as the love of God and our neighbor.
4. Those who try to keep the law by their natural powers or free will simulate only the external works; they do not give expression to those attitudes which the law demands.
5. Therefore, they do not satisfy the law, but they are hypocrites, "whitewashed tombs," as Christ calls them in Matt 23:27. Gal 3:10 says: "For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse.
6. Therefore, it is not the function of the law to justify.
7. But the proper function of the law is to reveal sin and especially to confound the conscience. Rom 3:20: "Through the law comes knowledge of sin."
8. To a conscience acknowledging sin and confounded by the law, the gospel reveals Christ.
9. Thus John reveals Christ at the very time he preaches repentance: "Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29).
10. The faith by which we belive the gospel showing us Christ and by which Christ is received as the one who has placated the Father and through whom grace is given, this faith is our righteousness. John 1:12: "But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become Children of God."
11. If it is actually faith alone that justifies, there is clearly no regard for our merits or our works , bot only for the merits of Christ.
12. This faith calms and gladdens the heart. Rom 5:1: "Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace."
13. The result of faith is that for such a great blessing, the forgiveness of sins because of Christ, we love God in return. Therefore, love for God is a fruit of faith.
14. This same faith causes us to be ashamed of having offended such a kind and generous father.
15. Therefore, it cause us to abhor our flesh with its evil desires.
16. Human reason neither fears God nor believes him, but is utterly ignorant of him and despises him. We know this from Ps. 14:1: "The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'" Luke 16:31 "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead." Here Christ points out that the human heartdoes not believe the word of God. This madness of the human heart is what Solomon railed at in the whole book of Ecclesiastes as can be seen from ch. 8:11: "Because sentence agains an evil deed is not executed speedily, the heart of the sons of men is fully set to do evil."
17. Because the human heart is utterly ignorant of God, it turns aside to its own counsels and desires, and sets itself up in the place of God.
18. When God confounds the human heart through the law with a sense of sin, it does not yet know God, that is, it does not know his goodness and therefore hates him as if he were a tormentor.
19. When God comforts and consoles the human heart through the gospel by showing it Christ, then finally it knows God, for it recognizes both his power and his goodness. This is what Jer 9:24 means: "But let him who glories glory in this, that...he knows me."
20. The heart of him who has believed the gospel and come to know the goodness of God is now fortified so that it trusts in God and fears him and consequently abhors the thoughts of the human heart.
21. Peter said very fittingly in Acts 15:9 that hearts are cleansed by faith.
22. Mercy is revealed through the promises.
23. Sometimes material things are promised, and at other times spiritual.
24. In the law, material things such as the Land of Canaan, the Kingdom, etc. are promised.
25. The gospel is the promise of grace or the forgiveness of sins through Christ.
26. All material promises are dependent on the promise of Christ.
27. For the first promise was a promise of grace or Christ. It is found in Gen 3:15: "He shall bruise your head." This means that the seed of Eve will crush the kingdom of the serpent plotting agains our heel, that is Christ will crush sin and death.
28. This was renewed in the promise made to Abraham: "By your decendants shall all the nations of the earth be blessed" (Gen. 22:18).
29. Therefore, since Christ was to be born of the descendants of Abraham, the promises added to the law about the possession of the earth, etc. were obscure promises of the Christ who was to come. For those material things were promised to the people until the promised seed should be born, lest they perish and in order that in the meantime God might indicate his mercy by material things and might thereby exercise the faith of his people.
30. By Christ's birth the promises to mankind were consumated, and the forgiveness of sins, for which Christ had to be born, was openly made known.
31. The promises of the Old Testament are signs of the Christ to come and also of the promise of grace to be broadcast at some future time. The gospel, the very promise of grace, has already been made known.
32. Just as that man does not know God who knows only that he exists but does not know either his power or his mercy, so also that man does not believe who believes only that God exists but does not believe both in his power and his mercy.
33. He really believes, therefore, who, looking beyond the threats, believes the gospel also, who fixes his face on the mercy of God or on Christ, the pledge of divine mercy.
So much on faith; we shall add certain things on love a little later after we have dealt with the difference between the law and gospel.
-taken from Loci Communes Theologici by Philip Melanchthon

[LuxPerpetua]

Lutheranism is seeming very appealing to me. I'm confused, though, about the different "branches???" (ECLA, and the other two). What do the letters stand for, and how are they different, other than ECLA being more liberal (which was said in some of the posts above)? How does ECLA claim Apostolic succession? Is there a "church finder" thingy on the internet to locate Lutheran churches?

Thanks for all of the great info! :)

[JVAC]

I see Lotar is viewing so I got to be fast [wink]

I'll assume Lotar will post extensively for the LCMS [Lutheran Church Missouri Synod] so I will post as best I can for the ELCA [Evangelical Lutheran Church in America].

http://www.elca.org/findachurch.html

The link above will take you to find an ELCA congregation. Now to answer some 'fragens'.

The ELCA has ordained Bishops that have been ordained into the Apostolic Succession from the Sweedish Bishops, who have been in Apostolic Succession since the Bishops of the Catholic CHurch there converted to Lutheranism. These Bishops had the Apostolic Succession passed onto them and kept it alive in the Church. The ELCA currently keeps that practice up.

ELCA will ordain women as clergy and practices open communion. These are the basic differences you will find. THe ELCA is the second largest Lutheran Synod in the World [second only to Germany]. The ELCA is affiliated with the Greater Communion that is the LWF [Lutheran World Federation], that is 61.4 million Lutherans, the only non adherents are the LCMS, WELS and LCC.

This is what I can think of now. Nice talking to you.

-James

[Lotar]

LCMS - Lutheran Church Missouri Synod
WELS - Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod
ELCA - Evangelical Lutheran Church in America

Here is the LCMS website http://www.lcms.org/ It has all types of FAQs and explainations of doctrine. Here is the church locator http://www.lcms.org/ca/www/locators/nchurches/church.asp

The ECLA is the liberal Church, and LCMS and WELS are the conservative Churches. Still, the ECLA isn't as liberal as the Episcopals.

The ECLA has bishops because when Sweden converted they kept their bishops. JVAC's opinions aside ;) , it is generally held that apostolic succession is unnecessary and was only practiced for tradition's sake until the ECLA entered communion with the Episcopal Church. After that time they have practiced it more rigorously as a condition for the communion.

As the LCMS and WELS originally were German synods, we do not have apostolic succession, though we have pastors who play the same role. As scripture never speaks of it we do not see it as necessary. It is a doctrine that developed over the first three centuries to help the Church gain legitimacy over the heretics and continued to develop to the papacy, infallibility, ect.

The main difference between LCMS and WELS is that the LCMS believes it is okay for women to vote at church meetings and that it's okay pray with those we are not in complete doctrinal agreement with, and the WELS does not.

[Lotar]

I wrote this short history a little while ago:
Most countries have one Lutheran Church, but America is a special case. Originally there were many Lutheran Churches, all started by immigrants. Eventually the many many denominations formed into just three denominations, LCMS, WELS, and what is today known as the ELCA. There were ongoing talks between all three Churches to for one Lutheran Church in America, but this was just about the time that liberalism began to infect the Church. Talks broke down because the LCMS and WELS wanted part of our confession to be the inerrancy of the Gospel, while the ELCA just wanted to commit to the inerrancy of the Gospel message.
The LCMS had a struggle with liberalism within our own Church, but then made history as the first Church in history to reverse liberalizing tendencies, They kicked out churches that refused to commit to the Gospel and the Book of Concord. Those liberal churches then joined up with (I think) the LCA to form the what is now the ELCA. Communion remained between the 3 Churches until the ELCA decided to enter communion with the Reformed Churches, at which time the LCMS and WELS broke communion with them. Later the LCMS and WELS broke communion over whether it is acceptable to pray with those you are not in doctrinal agreement with.
Even so, we enter talks from time to time, in order to try to solve our differences.

[Flipper]

The main difference between LCMS and WELS is that the LCMS believes it is okay for women to vote at church meetings and that it's okay pray with those we are not in complete doctrinal agreement with, and the WELS does not.
First of all - LOVE YOUR AVATAR! The Princess Bride is one of my favorite movies!

This is just a little off the subject. When the LCMS New York region president got raked over the coals over the prayer service on 9/11 - I believe he got in as much trouble for praying with people of different denominations, as he did for praying with people of different religions. I could be wrong - are you familiar with that incident? For the record, I stood behind what he did, as did my church.

[LuxPerpetua]

Just how "liberal" is the ECLA? I'm very conservative, but I like the idea of open communion.

[LuxPerpetua]

So are LCMS Christians not allowed to pray with other denominations??? This could be a huge problem since all of my family is either Baptist or Presbyterian. Hmmm.

[Flipper]

Just how "liberal" is the ECLA? I'm very conservative, but I like the idea of open communion.
I've only been to one ELCA church, and it didn't seem any less conservative than my LCMS church. My LCMS church also allows open communion - but it is also pretty conservative in my opinion.

That brings up another question. I've seen the Lutheran church as a whole called liberal. What's the liberal/conservative standard here anyway. I always figured if it is Bible-based, it is conservative - but even that can be subjective.

[Flipper]

So are LCMS Christians not allowed to pray with other denominations??? This could be a huge problem since all of my family is either Baptist or Presbyterian. Hmmm.
That's the thing - I've never heard it wasn't and my LCMS pastor does not preach that. That's the only time I ever heard of it being an issue - and frankly, I know very few Lutherans, LCMS or otherwise, who agree with that.

I joined my church by first going to a Singles Bible Study that my church had that was open to everyone regardless of denomination. It never pushed going to church there - just fellowship with each other, and the opportunity to learn more about Jesus and the Bible. I was Catholic at the time, and was never held against me. Joining my church and changing denominations was my decision alone - no one pushed me. Not once was I ever told I couldn't pray with anyone of different denominations.

[Lotar]

First of all - LOVE YOUR AVATAR! The Princess Bride is one of my favorite movies!
Ya, that movie is awesome. :cool:



This is just a little off the subject. When the LCMS New York region president got raked over the coals over the prayer service on 9/11 - I believe he got in as much trouble for praying with people of different denominations, as he did for praying with people of different religions. I could be wrong - are you familiar with that incident? For the record, I stood behind what he did, as did my church.

He got in trouble for praying with other religions, which is not at all tolerated. Praying with other denominations is okay.

[LuxPerpetua]

Another question:

What is the Lutheran stance on birth control? For those of you who know ;)

[Lotar]

So are LCMS Christians not allowed to pray with other denominations??? This could be a huge problem since all of my family is either Baptist or Presbyterian. Hmmm.
We teach that it is okay to pray with other denominations, just not other religions. That was the whole reason WELS broke communion with us, they do not think it is okay.

Just how "liberal" is the ECLA? I'm very conservative, but I like the idea of open communion.
They allow women pastors and still considering their position on homosexuality, though it sounds like they are not going to accept it as okay. They are in communion with the Episcopal Church.

As a whole they are more liberal, but there are not nearly so liberal as other Churches, just when compared to other Lutherans :D

[Lotar]

Another question:

What is the Lutheran stance on birth control? For those of you who know ;)
ECLA and LCMS are fine with it, I don't know about WELS.

[Phoebe]

I think that they view birth control as none of their business. They don't ask, and we don't tell.

Flipper has been to my church! (ELCA) Three times, I think. :D

[LuxPerpetua]

When you say you do confession, do you mean individual confession or just a general congregational prayer of confession?

[Phoebe]

General Confession. (Brief Order for Confession and Forgiveness)

Private confession with a pastor is also available if you feel particularly burdened by a sin.

[LuxPerpetua]

What are Lutherans' stance on divorce and remarriage?

[Lotar]

When you say you do confession, do you mean individual confession or just a general congregational prayer of confession?
We do both:


Confession



How Christians should be taught to confess.

What is Confession?*

Confession embraces two parts: the one is, that we confess our sins; the other, that we receive absolution, or forgiveness, from the confessor, as from God Himself, and in no wise doubt, but firmly believe, that our sins are thereby forgiven before God in heaven.

What sins should we confess?

Before God we should plead guilty of all sins, even of those which we do not know, as we do in the Lord's Prayer. But before the confessor we should confess those sins alone which we know and feel in our hearts.

Which are these?

Here consider your station according to the Ten Commandments, whether you are a father, mother, son, daughter, master, mistress, a man-servant or maid-servant; whether you have been disobedient, unfaithful, slothful; whether you have grieved any one by words or deeds; whether you have stolen, neglected, or wasted aught, or done other injury.

Pray, Propose to Me a Brief Form of Confession.

Answer.

You should speak to the confessor thus: Reverend and dear sir, I beseech you to hear my confession, and to pronounce forgiveness to me for God's sake.

Proceed!

I, a poor sinner, confess myself before God guilty of all sins; especially I confess before you that I am a man-servant, a maidservant, etc. But, alas, I serve my master unfaithfully; for in this and in that I have not done what they commanded me; I have provoked them, and caused them to curse, have been negligent and permitted damage to be done; have also been immodest in words and deeds, have quarreled with my equals, have grumbled and sworn at my mistress, etc. For all this I am sorry, and pray for grace; I want to do better.

[i]A master or mistress may say thus:

In particular I confess before you that I have not faithfully trained my children, domestics, and wife [family] for God's glory. I have cursed, set a bad example by rude words and deeds, have done my neighbor harm and spoken evil of him, have overcharged and given false ware and short measure.

And whatever else he has done against God's command and his station, etc.

But if any one does not find himself burdened with such or greater sins, he should not trouble himself or search for or invent other sins, and thereby make confession a torture, but mention one or two that he knows. Thus: In particular I confess that I once cursed; again, I once used improper words, I have once neglected this or that, etc. Let this suffice.

But if you know of none at all (which, however is scarcely possible), then mention none in particular, but receive the forgiveness upon your general confession which you make before God to the confessor.

Then shall the confessor say:

God be merciful to thee and strengthen thy faith! Amen.

Furthermore:

Dost thou believe that my forgiveness is God's forgiveness?

Answer.

Yes, dear sir.

Then let him say:

As thou believest, so be it done unto thee. And by the command of our Lord Jesus Christ I forgive thee thy sins, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Amen. Depart in peace.

But those who have great burdens upon their consciences, or are distressed and tempted, the confessor will know how to comfort and to encourage to faith with more passages of Scripture. This is to be merely a general form of confession for the unlearned.

* These questions may not have been composed by Luther himself but reflect his teachings and were included in editions of the Small Catechism during his lifetime. http://www.bookofconcord.org/smallcatechism.html#confession

[Lotar]

What are Lutherans' stance on divorce and remarriage?
Q. How is divorce viewed in the LCMS?

A. The LCMS believes that divorce is contrary to God's original design and intention for marriage. While divorce can be justified Scripturally in certain situations (adultery or desertion), it is always preferable for couples to forgive and work toward healing and strengthening their marriage. Because no two situations are alike, LCMS pastors deal on a case-by-case basis with members (or potential members) who are wrestling with the issue of (past or present) divorce.

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2128

[LuxPerpetua]

Good. I just wanted to make sure that divorce was not taken lightly. I hate that.

[Lotar]

Good. I just wanted to make sure that divorce was not taken lightly. I hate that.
So do I :cool:

My sister and I always point out the irony that the most legalistic (and I mean legalistic) pastor at my parent's church (Calvary Chapel) shouldn't even be a pastor because he is divorced. And he was divorced after he became a Christian. :rolleyes:

[JVAC]

Just how "liberal" is the ECLA? I'm very conservative, but I like the idea of open communion.
Liberal is what we are called, however, I find that the idealogies are quite conservative in my church (ie republican, etc.). The ELCA is only liberal when it comes to the role of women and communion. We also try to be eccumenical. This attempt has given us the biggest liberal label. We have tried to embrace other denominations by recognizing thier communion, and many of the hardliners WELS and LCMS don't think it is a good idea.

The ELCA strives for Christian Unity but does not give in to certain truths.

You could also label ELCA more conservative with respect to its ecclesiastical usages. However, that is a subject in itself.

-James

[JVAC]

Marriage is also viewed as such in the ELCA. Actually you wont find many differences in our Synods, just the ones already explained.

The thing I like about being ELCA is that I am free to commune with Anglicans and Moravians as well as Presbyterians, etc. I enjoy this freedom a great deal. Yet when I go to certain places and if I think thier intent is something other than honoring the Real Pressence and upholding the dignity of the Sacrament, then I will not join. I don't really enjoy the fact that the LCMS will deny me access to the Holy Sacrament unless I make arrangements ahead of time. I can see why they would, but, I'm Lutheran, I mean come on folks.

On the Homosexual note, I doubt it will pass, because the Council of Bishops already declared it to be in deffiance of Scripture and Tradition in 1993.

-James

[Lotar]

Simplest terms :D : ECLA is "liberal" mostly because they have open communion and allow women pastors. By most standards they are considered conservative.


I noticed in TAW you asked about liberal/conservative in the Orthodox Church. They will deny it, just as the RCs do, but that doesn't mean it's not there. Just look up their controversy over ecumenalism if you don't believe me. There isn't a single denomination that isn't dealing with Liberalism at the moment.

[JVAC]

ECLA
Hey Lotar it's ELCA ;) . I think your left hand is faster than your right, everytime you typed this acronym you have it CL instead of LC. :D


Yes ok, we are liberal :o . (pretty funny because I tend to be more conservative than anyone else I know.) I have never been fond of Liberalism, I have this long line of animosity to it. Now in School they are emphasizing the Concept of Liberalism and it angers me because I don't agree with it. So I just sit in the back of the room cross my arms and sulk.

I guess if your like me and don't really care about the role of women in the Church ELCA is just fine, but if that is crucial to your faith then I would suggest going with one of the other Synods. However, the minute they start messing with doctrine, ie this forth comming national assembly, then I might be heading out. Yet, I don't think it will come to this. The Holy Spirit won't allow such a heresy.

-James

(I think I am starting to vent)

[Lotar]

Do you know why? We have a building at school called the ECLA building :D I always type that first, sometimes I remember and go back and change it :D

[ByzantineDixie]

The thing I like about being ELCA is that I am free to commune with Anglicans and Moravians as well as Presbyterians, etc. I enjoy this freedom a great deal. Yet when I go to certain places and if I think thier intent is something other than honoring the Real Pressence and upholding the dignity of the Sacrament, then I will not join. I don't really enjoy the fact that the LCMS will deny me access to the Holy Sacrament unless I make arrangements ahead of time. I can see why they would, but, I'm Lutheran, I mean come on folks.


I have not posted on this thread yet--my Lutheran brothers and sisters have not needed any help from me. But I think it is important to address the communion thing because this does vary from congregation to congregation in the LCMS. Not all LCMS churches practice closed or "close" communion in a way that excludes non-members or non-Lutherans. As Flipper pointed out--their communion is open to all believers in her church...same way with my church. There is an official church position but Pastors are given certain latitude.

James--as a believer you are more than welcome to commune at our table...if you ever find yourself in the peach state. :D (But I guess when we commune we commune with all saints past, present and future, the whole Body of Christ--so you are already there! :cool: )

AND I allow myself to commune with any group of true believers save those who practice a closed communion that excludes me. (Example: when I attend Catholic mass with my brother and his family and I never take communion because I know they only what to commune Catholics at their table. I respect their wishes.)

Communion is such a very precious gift...it gives me the grace I need to keep going. I think it should be a big consideration in selecting a church. Everything from frequency to who has access to the table to the belief in the Real Presence, its all important.

Love all y'all :hug:

Rose

[LuxPerpetua]

Oh, Rose: I love the word ya'll! :) I'm originally from MS but now live in CT, so I don't get to hear that word much. Brought a tear to my eye! I have family in the big metropolis of Tallapoosa, GA, too.


Hey, JVAC: Can you keep me posted about the homosexual thing? I really think that ELCA fits me best at the moment, but this is really important to me. Also, what kind of Holy Week services are offered? Our church doesn't observe much of Holy Week, except Maundy Thursday, so maybe we could visit an ELCA (did I get it right??) church the other days of Holy Week.

[Rechtgläubig]

What is the Lutheran stance on birth control? For those of you who know http://christianforums.com/images/smilies/wink.gifhttp://christianforums.com/images/quotes/quot-bot-left.gifhttp://christianforums.com/images/quotes/quot-bot-right.gif
ECLA and LCMS are fine with it, I don't know about WELS.


WELS generally considers birth control an adiaphoron, unless it becomes injurous to the physical or mental health of a husband, wife, or child. :)

[JVAC]

Hey, JVAC: Can you keep me posted about the homosexual thing? I really think that ELCA fits me best at the moment, but this is really important to me. Also, what kind of Holy Week services are offered? Our church doesn't observe much of Holy Week, except Maundy Thursday, so maybe we could visit an ELCA (did I get it right??) church the other days of Holy Week.Sure, I'll keep you posted. It won't happen till next year, the vote that is, so we got a while. I am pretty sure it won't pass though.


About Holy week, depending on the Congregation, size is a factor, they will celebrate Holy week usually this way: Generally a Lutheran Church begins with Palm Sunday service. Palm Sunday is usually a festival day. During the week, one is expected to prepare oneself for Maundy Thursday, Maundy Thursday is celebrated usually at night with the stripping of the Altar and Communion. Good Friday is commmemorated the next day usually with the Stations of the Cross. Depending on the Congregation they may have a special service for Holy Saturday or not and maybe an Easter vigil. Then of course there is Easter the second great Church Feastival.

I enjoy Holy Week a lot myself. It is an awesome time of the year. God be with you in finding a great Congregation!

-James