What was the Galatian Error?

[DanielRB]

Hi All, :wave:

What was the Galatian error? Many Christians think that Messianic Judaism falls under the condemnation that Paul made of these teachers (I'm sure you all have heard that accusation countless times before.) But what exactly was the Galatain error? How can we be sure to avoid it, yet follow Torah? What is the distinction between a faithful follower of G-d in the Messiah and the false teachers spoken against in the letter to the Galatians?

In Messiah,

Daniel

[visionary]

Circumcision enforcers

[Katydid]

If I am correct, you are speaking about Judaizers.

Well, my understanding is that they believed to be saved you must convert to Judaism. This is not true. Conversion is not necessary to salvation. Obedience is not NECESSARY to salvation. Only faith garauntees salvation. The difference in following the law and being a Judaizer is simple for me to understand.

1. I don't condemn others for not following the law

2. I don't follow the law for the purpose of salvation

What I do do is answer questions that arise as to WHY I follow the law, and then I will explain my point, stressing that I don't believe that following the law alone gives me salvation. I follow the law as a result OF my salvation. Hope that makes sense.

[DanielRB]

Circumcision enforcers

Hi Visionary, :wave:

Thanks for the response.

This might be covering stuff in my other thread (about "jot and tittle"), but if circumcision is part of Torah, and not a "jot or tittle" of Torah shall pass away, then why would Paul use such strong language against circumcision? Was that the only aspect of Torah that Paul thought to be unnecessary? If so, why? Was the fact that it was being applied to Gentiles the main problem? Should Jews still follow all aspects of Torah, including circumcision? Should Gentiles follow all aspects of Torah, except circumcision?

In Messiah,

Daniel

[DanielRB]

If I am correct, you are speaking about Judaizers.

Well, my understanding is that they believed to be saved you must convert to Judaism. This is not true. Conversion is not necessary to salvation. Obedience is not NECESSARY to salvation. Only faith garauntees salvation. The difference in following the law and being a Judaizer is simple for me to understand.

1. I don't condemn others for not following the law

2. I don't follow the law for the purpose of salvation

What I do do is answer questions that arise as to WHY I follow the law, and then I will explain my point, stressing that I don't believe that following the law alone gives me salvation. I follow the law as a result OF my salvation. Hope that makes sense.

Hi Katydid, :wave:

Thanks for your post. :)

If one is saved, do you think one so saved should follow Torah, even if it is not "required" for salvation? Do you think that one is disobedient (though saved) if one does not follow Torah? If one wants to be the best follower of Yehoshua possible, will one follow every "jot and tittle" of Torah? And if following Torah is not required for salvation, what do you mean by "I don't believe that following the law alone gives me salvation"?

In Messiah,

Daniel

[visionary]

Hi Visionary, :wave:

Thanks for the response.

This might be covering stuff in my other thread (about "jot and tittle"), but if circumcision is part of Torah, and not a "jot or tittle" of Torah shall pass away, then why would Paul use such strong language against circumcision?
In Messiah,

Daniel
I want you to notice that it is not part of the covenant but a token of the covenant.

Genesis 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. 11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. 12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

Was that the only aspect of Torah that Paul thought to be unnecessary? If so, why?
The judizers were following the Torah in this respect, circumcision was an outward sign of the worthiness to keep the Passover.

Exodus 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

But Paul's understanding was deeper than that....he saw circumcision of the heart more important that the flesh. He was teaching people the importance to see the spiritual aspects of what Torah taught, not get caught up in the works, ie circumcision of the flesh.

Deuteronomy 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

This was the circumcision that Paul wanted foremost in the believers minds.

Was the fact that it was being applied to Gentiles the main problem?

The main problem was works vs faith. Righteousness by faith was the main thrust of Paul's teaching. If gentiles who have never lived Torah are taught the deeds of the law, and not the spirit and truth as it is found in Yeshua, they can end up no better than a Pharasee and miss the whole purpose of the Law, which is to bring the sinner to full redemption by faith in Yeshua.
Should Jews still follow all aspects of Torah, including circumcision? And they should Should Gentiles follow all aspects of Torah, except circumcision? As the gentile learns the truth and the spirit of intent in Yeshua, they follow Torah in the new light.

[Katydid]

If one is saved, do you think one so saved should follow Torah, even if it is not "required" for salvation?

The short answer. Yes. I do tend to believe that as you grow in faith, your study should grow, and in that you will see what HaShem expects of His followers.

To give you a verse or two

Acts
15:20 but instead we should write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from eating anything that has been strangled, and from blood. 15:21 For since ancient times, Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, and he is read aloud in the synagogues every Sabbath day."

Now I am sure you are more than familiar with the first verse, but the second verse, is much less quoted. Mainly because the implication is that after someone comes to faith, he will gradually learn what Moses taught, as it is taught in the synagogues every Sabbath day. They would grow into their knowledge of what is expected of G-d's people. The first verse covers the starting point, the very least they can do to join in the fellowship, the second verse explains that they will add others as they learn them.



Do you think that one is disobedient (though saved) if one does not follow Torah?

I don't believe that someone can be disobedient without the knowledge of what obedience entails. With that being said, if someone knows the law...

Matthew
5:19
Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches people to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever practices and teaches these commandments will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

If one wants to be the best follower of Yehoshua possible, will one follow every "jot and tittle" of Torah?
Unless you are male, female, slave, master, priest, etc etc. Then you cannot follow every aspect of the law. As far as following the law goes, I believe that as we learn that we are in error, (the gradual learning that I mentioned earlier), then as a believer in Yeshua and HaShem, we should correct our behavior. I don't believe that you should learn all the laws at once and feel that you must obey every single one as there would be no joy in your walk with HaShem. I feel that you should learn consistently and correct as you walk with HaShem.

Psalm
119:35 Help me stay on the path of Your commands,
for I take pleasure in it.

I do take pleasure in obedience to HaShem, there is freedom in following the law. I know that some look at this as something bad, but to me it is freeing to do so.



And if following Torah is not required for salvation, what do you mean by "I don't believe that following the law alone gives me salvation"?

Well, in all honesty, I meant just that, it does not provide me with salvation. It is a cause and effect, I love Yeshua, I follow his commands.


John
14:10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I speak to you I do not speak on My own. The Father who lives in Me does His works

John
14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments


If Yeshua is G-d and G-d's commands are the Law and Yeshua is G-d, then doesn't go to say that Yeshua's commands are the Law.

So if Yeshua's commandments are the same as G-d's commandments, then if you love Yeshua you will follow His commands.

As I said earlier, if you are unaware that you are sinning, then you are not accountable for your actions, but if you are aware and choose to continue, then you are responsible for your lack of repentance.

Does that make sense?

[shmuel]

Acts 15:21 is a statement made to the Jerusalem council, but it is not a statement included in the letter. This would appear to be a statement made to those present to make it clear that Torah observance has not been abolished for Jews. Since it is not included in the letter it does not seem to be directed to gentiles. Notice that in Acts 21:21 that Shaul is accused of " ... teaching all Jews among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor walk according to the customs." The letter itself concludes (Acts 15:29) with the statement " ... if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell." The letter doesn't say " ... if you keep yourselves free of these things you have made a start, but now you need to learn Torah."

S

[talmidim]

Hi all :wave:

I love the discussion and I am impressed with the responses of both visionary and katydid. The doctrine is called sanctification in some circles, though I think they both made a good showing of it for my money (figure of speech). I know that there are things that are sins for me today that would not have been sins for me a couple of years back. Or even last week.

I feel that we are held to a different standard that those gentile or Jew, that lived before the atoning sacrifice of our Lord. I haven't worked everything out in my mind yet, but I know when I hear something if my spirit agrees with His Spirit concerning it. So far, I'm all ears. That is why I love this Messianic forum so much. Thank you all.

b'Shalom
talmidim

[koilias]

Acts 15:21 is a statement made to the Jerusalem council, but it is not a statement included in the letter. This would appear to be a statement made to those present to make it clear that Torah observance has not been abolished for Jews. Since it is not included in the letter it does not seem to be directed to gentiles. Notice that in Acts 21:21 that Shaul is accused of " ... teaching all Jews among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor walk according to the customs." The letter itself concludes (Acts 15:29) with the statement " ... if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell." The letter doesn't say " ... if you keep yourselves free of these things you have made a start, but now you need to learn Torah."

I have to respectfully disagree with this opinion. Surely the verse "For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath," is stating in context that Moses is proclaimed in the Diaspora Synagogues to gentiles and that the gentiles have already deep knowledge of G-d's ways in general. Why does it need to be included in the letter? Torah is being learned and taught. That is what the verse says. The purpose of the letter is to remove the yoke of Torah from the gentiles so that they will not be condemned for failing to keep all of it.

In first century Judaism, it was a mitzvah for a gentile to keep Torah, because he was not required to keep it, and it is thereby a pure action of the heart in the eyes of the heavenly court. But to put him under the full yoke is too heavy a burden according to both Paul and Yeshua. Then he has to keep it, and his salvation is incumbent upon it before the heavenly court. Yeshua points out that if it is hard enough for Pharisees (who were raised in Jewish culture) to observe Torah with heartfelt devotion, why impose it on a gentile who is far less able to keep it? You'll only turn him into "twice the son of hell" that you are.

[ShirChadash]

bump

[Yhudah]

DanielRB writes ----

What was the Galatian error?


My Response:

Legalists in the Messianic community, called Judaizers, taught that the Torah (Mosaic law, law of Moses) was still binding upon believers in Yeshua.

They reasoned that God's promises extended only to Jews, and that the Gentiles must undergo b'rit-milah (covenantal circumcison) before they could fully experience salvation.

The Judaizers did not deny that trust in Yeshua was necessary, but insisted that it was inadequate. They taught they one must add to that trust in Yeshua by observance of the Torah (Mosaic law).

And that was in direct contradiction to Rav Sha'ul's (Apostle Paul's) insistence that salvation was by grace through trust, so the Judaizers sought to discredit his teachings by challenging his authority.

They charged that Sha'ul was a second class or secondhand rabbi you could say, and that he was inferior to Rav Kefa (Peter) and Rav Ya'akov (James).

Moreover, they argued, he was a compromiser who made the Gospel more attractive to the Gentiles by removing its valid legal demands.

Sha'ul vehemently reacted to this evil propaganda of the Judaizers by asserting his emissionary (apostolic) authority and explaining the Gospel of grace through trusting in Yeshua and in what His bloody sacrificial atoning death on the stake had accomplished.


----------------------------------------------------------------


DanielRB writes ---

Many Christians think that Messianic Judaism falls under the condemnation that Paul made of these teachers (I'm sure you all have heard that accusation countless times before.)


My Response:

That's true, and as for some groups in the Messianic movement it is true, but not with all. It fact, the problem of legalism has long since been in Gentile forms of Christianity too.


-------------------------------------------------------------


DanielRB writes ----

But what exactly was the Galatain error?

How can we be sure to avoid it, yet follow Torah?

What is the distinction between a faithful follower of G-d in the Messiah and the false teachers spoken against in the letter to the Galatians?


My Response:

I think I have already answered part of this in my previous response just above.

As for how we can avoid this problem, and yet still be Torah observant?

By remaining focused on the Mashiach (Christ), and on what His bloody sacrifical atoning death had accomplished for us, never to allow our minds to begin to wander away for it, and to not allow ourselves to begin to lose sight of what it had accomplished for us.



May the Holy One bless you, as you meditate upon what Yeshua's bloody sacrifice on the stake accomplished for us.

Yehuda

[visionary]

We are to live on his ability not our own. Remember what Scripture says about his ability: ‘And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work.’ ‘Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us...’ ‘I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him on that day. He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness.’ ‘Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.’ And, ‘(he) is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy.’

[yod]

What was the Galatian error?



I think we're making this harder than it is.

The Galatian error was that we can perfect in the flesh what HaShem has ALREADY done by the Ruach HaKodesh.