Okay . . . What is the deal with Mormons?

[LuxPerpetua]

Granted I don't know much about LDS teachings, but don't Mormons also believe in God like Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox? I'm just wondering, why do so many mainstream Christians think of Mormonism as a "cult" and call them "unChristian?" I've known a few Mormons in my life and they were some of the most charitable people I'd ever met and they certainly did believe in Christ as their savior, so I just don't get it . . . what's the big deal about??

I'm just baffled. :confused:

[Bulldog]

They believe in God and in Jesus, but there are a couple differences we have about the nature of God..........

1) They are henotheistic, (hope I spelled that right) meaningthat the believe in Many Gods but only worship one......

2) They reject the Trinity teaching that Jesus is the son of God, not God.......

3) They believe that men can become gds, and that our God was once a man.

There are others, but these are the 3 that came to my head.

[JVAC]

Mormans are not protestants. Mormons believe that after the last Apostle died, that the "Great Apostacy" happened, where God turned away from the Church because it didn't teach truely anymore. So, from that time to the 1800's the Church ceased to exist on Earth. Then, in the 1800's the "prophet" Joseph Smith started it back up again.

Mormans believe that we are saved through faith in Jesus, yet we are required to do good works to sanctify us, and to earn a spot in the "Celestial Kingdom" (Celestial Kingdom is the best place to go, there are also two other levels of heaven). Mormons, as bulldog said, deny the Trinity. Therefore, the Old Testament calls them Polytheists, and of course polytheists are supposed to be cut off from the people, for it violates Deut. 6:4 and Exodus 20.

Mormons also believe they can become a god. They deny the eternity of God and conjecture that he was created at one time in history. These is not a biblical teaching.

Mormons are quite the paradox, sure that have the nominalist belief in Jesus as Christ, but they deny that he is part of the Godhead. They deny that the Spirit proceeds from the Father.

There are also other heresies that they teach. They do not accept the three Ecumenical Creeds (Apostle, Nicene, Athanasian) and are therefore unorthodox and do not hold the Holy Christian faith true.

-James

[LuxPerpetua]

But the question then arises, if you believe in Jesus as the final atonement for sins and then live a life according to His commandments but do not have a full understanding (or even faulty understanding) of theology, are you saved?

I tend to think yes, but I also have extreme doubts that ANY church is the full expression of Christian belief--I think that some churches get some parts right and others get other parts right but none gets it fully right. This probably explains why I hover somewhere among Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox beliefs but don't commit to any side entirely.

I dunno. What are your thoughts on the above question?

[Bulldog]

They also believe that there is not salvation outside the LDS church.

[InnerPhyre]

But the question then arises, if you believe in Jesus as the final atonement for sins and then live a life according to His commandments but do not have a full understanding (or even faulty understanding) of theology, are you saved?

I tend to think yes, but I also have extreme doubts that ANY church is the full expression of Christian belief--I think that some churches get some parts right and others get other parts right but none gets it fully right. This probably explains why I hover somewhere among Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox beliefs but don't commit to any side entirely.

I dunno. What are your thoughts on the above question?
The trouble is that Latter Day Saints don't believe on One God. They believe that the God they worship was not always the strongest, but was a member of a pantheon of gods, and their God outsmarted them and essentially took over. They also believe in a female diety who has sex with God to create souls which are then given bodies on earth. As was said above, they also believe that humans can become gods themselves. I'm not in the business of saying who goes to hell and who doesn't, since that's Gods job, not mine, so I'll just say LDS's would have a much easier time finding salvation elsewhere.


They also believe that there is not salvation outside the LDS church.

That's not exactly true. They believe good Christian people will go to heaven too, but the highest level of heaven is reserved just for Latter Day Saints

[JVAC]

The Creed states:

(Quicunque vult salvus esse) Whoever wants/wills to be saved, they should above all cling to the catholic faith, now this is the catholic faith: we believe in one God in trinity and the Trinity in Unity, neither confusing the three nor dividing the divine being.... (goes on for a while talks about trinity, then discusses Jesus being the Savior)... whoever wishes to be saved must believe thus.

This creed is quite clear, if we do not believe in the Triune God, that is God in three aspects, Creater, Savior, Sanctifier we will not be saved.

-James

[LuxPerpetua]

They also believe that there is not salvation outside the LDS church.

Yes, but then they would be misguided, which is what I think we ALL are in some sense. I'm not sure that that particular belief (or other misguided beliefs not concerning salvation) inhibits their own salvation, though, which is an argument I've heard many mainstream Christians make. I guess I'm just a big adherent to grace, faith, and works that come from faith=salvation.

I've also heard *some* conservative Catholics argue that "where Peter is there is the church, and where there is the church there is eternal life," which I took as meaning that salvation is only for those in the Catholic church. I'm not intending at all to turn this into a Catholic vs. Protestant thing by any means, only mentioning that to my knowledge (unless I misunderstood the quote that I mentioned above) it's not just Mormons who believe they have a monopoly on salvation. Personally, I have no doubt that Catholics, including conservative Catholics, are saved (and all Protestants I've known have felt the same way) so then I ask, why do some Protestants not think the same for Mormons?

[LuxPerpetua]

Are you sure they don't believe in the Trinity?? I really don't know myself, but the Mormons I've talked to seemed like they did. Dh was raised in the Mormon church but now attends a Protestant church, and he doesn't remember being taught anything like that above . . . but he also left the LDS church at age 12 after being baptized.

[theseed]

The Creed states:

(Quicunque vult salvus esse) Whoever wants/wills to be saved, they should above all cling to the catholic faith, now this is the catholic faith: we believe in one God in trinity and the Trinity in Unity, neither confusing the three nor dividing the divine being.... (goes on for a while talks about trinity, then discusses Jesus being the Savior)... whoever wishes to be saved must believe thus.

This creed is quite clear, if we do not believe in the Triune God, that is God in three aspects, Creater, Savior, Sanctifier we will not be saved.

-James
Many of the Messianic Jews here don't beleive in the trinity, and at the same time believe in the Deity of Christ. And some just seem him as Messiah, but I have not doubt that some of them are saved.

[theseed]

If they are polytheistic then they could not believe in the Trinity. Furthermore, they believe that men will become gods and have thier own planet. And women can become goddesses by marrying the men. This is why polygamy is allowed by the LDS.

[LuxPerpetua]

I found this on www.lds.org (it redirected me to www.mormon.org--I think when I clicked "basic beliefs"):

****
Who is Jesus Christ?

Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He was the Creator, He is our Savior, and He will be our Judge.
Under the direction of our Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ created the earth (John 1:10; Hebrews 1:2).

When Jesus lived on the earth (approximately 2,000 years ago), He led a perfect life. He taught by word and example how people should live in love of God and others.

Through His suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane and by giving His life on the cross—that is, by performing the Atonement—Jesus Christ saves us from our sins (1 Peter 2:21) as we follow Him. Because of the Atonement, you can be forgiven of your sins when you sincerely repent (Book of Mormon, Mosiah 26:30).

Through His Resurrection, Jesus Christ saved us from death. Because He overcame death, we will all be given the gift of resurrection (Acts 24:15; 1 Corinthians 15:22). When life on this earth is over, Jesus Christ will be the final Judge (Acts 17:31; John 5:21–22; Acts 10:42).

****
From what I can tell, Mormons believe in the Trinity.

[Bulldog]

I'll go to the Unorthodox forum and ask.

[LuxPerpetua]

Here's more:
****
Gordon B. Hinckley, President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, said:
"We are Christians in a very real sense and that is coming to be more and more widely recognized. Once upon a time people everywhere said we are not Christians. They have come to recognize that we are, and that we have a very vital and dynamic religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ."

"We, of course, accept Jesus Christ as our Leader, our King, our Savior. The dominant figure in the history of the world, the only perfect Man who ever walked the earth, the living Son of the living God. He is our Savior and our Redeemer through whose atoning sacrifice has come the opportunity of eternal life."

"Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints pray and worship in the name of Jesus Christ. He is the center of our faith and the head of our Church. The Book of Mormon is Another Testament of Jesus Christ and witnesses of His divinity, His life, and His Atonement."
****

[fingerprint]

I see MormonFriend is in the list of users online right now. Maybe send him a private message and ask if he would look at this thread.

[PolymerTim]

I'm not sure where everyone gets their information, but I have a feeling that some of it may be inaccurate. As LuxPerpetua mentioned, I (her husband) was raised in the LDS church until age 12. For the most part, I think I got a typical Sunday-school teaching with a few unimportant twists like the three levels of heaven and who would be in each. I now disagree with many things that the LDS church believes, but some of the things being mentioned on this board I have never heard of. I must admit, that many beliefs are not taught to children of the age I was when atteding the church, but I can guarantee that the church does not currently allow polygamy. That was allowed at one time, but has since changed (well over 100 years ago).

It may be worth it for someone to do a little research and double-check the statements here. For instance, I doubt that LDS consider themselves polytheistic. Maybe they have been labelled as such due to a difference in terminology for Christ. And while it may be true, I have never heard anything about God being created, men becoming gods, or any thing like that. I would be very interested to see a link to some information on this.

[LuxPerpetua]

Here's more on the forgiveness of sins. So far everything seems rather orthodox to me.:

****
You can be forgiven of your sins through the Atonement of Jesus Christ by the process of repentance. Because Heavenly Father knew we would sometimes make wrong choices, He provided a way for us to be forgiven of our sins (John 3:16). He provided a Savior, Jesus Christ, who suffered for our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane and on the cross so that when we sincerely repent, we can be forgiven (Book of Mormon, Mosiah 4:6).
When we sincerely repent, we:

Confess the sin to both God and anyone who has been harmed by our sin.
Ask forgiveness from God and from anyone we have harmed.
When possible, repair the damage we have done.
Forsake our sins.
Strive to keep the commandments.
Sincere repentance brings peace and forgiveness. God has promised, “Behold, he who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more” (Doctrine and Covenants 58:42).
****

I assume along with repentence there is implied faith that only Christ's sacrifice can atone for sins.

[LuxPerpetua]

Just a note here, if any of our Mormon friends do join in the discussion, I ask you: Please let us all remember Christ's call to love one another and that we are ambassadors for Him. Please be courteous and nice and DO NOT DEBATE with that person specifically over the teachings of the LDS church. We can debate among ourselves, but please let us leave them out of it. It would be a courtesy to us for them to help clear up our misunderstandings of their faith--so watch the low blows, okay?

[theseed]

Just a note here, if any of our Mormon friends do join in the discussion, I ask you: Please let us all remember Christ's call to love one another and that we are ambassadors for Him. Please be courteous and nice and DO NOT DEBATE with that person specifically over the teachings of the LDS church. We can debate among ourselves, but please let us leave them out of it. It would be a courtesy to us for them to help clear up our misunderstandings of their faith--so watch the low blows, okay?
I won't debate, but I will ask why books are published that make the claims we have read here. :)

[LuxPerpetua]

I won't debate, but I will ask why books are published that make the claims we have read here. :)

I would think that's fine. I'm just wanting to keep things on a positive platform so that no one feels attacked.

[LynneClomina]

I found this on www.lds.org (it redirected me to www.mormon.org--I think when I clicked "basic beliefs"):

****
Who is Jesus Christ?

Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He was the Creator, He is our Savior, and He will be our Judge.
Under the direction of our Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ created the earth (John 1:10; Hebrews 1:2).

When Jesus lived on the earth (approximately 2,000 years ago), He led a perfect life. He taught by word and example how people should live in love of God and others.

Through His suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane and by giving His life on the cross—that is, by performing the Atonement—Jesus Christ saves us from our sins (1 Peter 2:21) as we follow Him. Because of the Atonement, you can be forgiven of your sins when you sincerely repent (Book of Mormon, Mosiah 26:30).

Through His Resurrection, Jesus Christ saved us from death. Because He overcame death, we will all be given the gift of resurrection (Acts 24:15; 1 Corinthians 15:22). When life on this earth is over, Jesus Christ will be the final Judge (Acts 17:31; John 5:21–22; Acts 10:42).

****
From what I can tell, Mormons believe in the Trinity.

[LynneClomina]

Here's more:
****
Gordon B. Hinckley, President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, said:
"We are Christians in a very real sense and that is coming to be more and more widely recognized. Once upon a time people everywhere said we are not Christians. They have come to recognize that we are, and that we have a very vital and dynamic religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ."

"We, of course, accept Jesus Christ as our Leader, our King, our Savior. The dominant figure in the history of the world, the only perfect Man who ever walked the earth, the living Son of the living God. He is our Savior and our Redeemer through whose atoning sacrifice has come the opportunity of eternal life."

"Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints pray and worship in the name of Jesus Christ. He is the center of our faith and the head of our Church. The Book of Mormon is Another Testament of Jesus Christ and witnesses of His divinity, His life, and His Atonement."
****

[LynneClomina]

I'm not sure where everyone gets their information, but I have a feeling that some of it may be inaccurate. As LuxPerpetua mentioned, I (her husband) was raised in the LDS church until age 12. For the most part, I think I got a typical Sunday-school teaching with a few unimportant twists like the three levels of heaven and who would be in each. I now disagree with many things that the LDS church believes, but some of the things being mentioned on this board I have never heard of. I must admit, that many beliefs are not taught to children of the age I was when atteding the church, but I can guarantee that the church does not currently allow polygamy. That was allowed at one time, but has since changed (well over 100 years ago).

It may be worth it for someone to do a little research and double-check the statements here. For instance, I doubt that LDS consider themselves polytheistic. Maybe they have been labelled as such due to a difference in terminology for Christ. And while it may be true, I have never heard anything about God being created, men becoming gods, or any thing like that. I would be very interested to see a link to some information on this.

[LuxPerpetua]

I'm confused over the last 3 posts :confused:

****
On a separate note, as per suggestion, I asked Mormonfriend if he would tell us more about Mormon beliefs so that at least we'll have a correct stance from which to view Mormonism (it just seems to me, like with many Protestants' views of Catholics, that much of our disagreement comes from misunderstanding each other than from actual disagreement). The problem, though, is Mormonfriend cannot post here unless he has special permission from a moderator. How do I (or how does he) go about getting this permission?

[theseed]

I've been looking on thier website and in the unorthodox forum. Everything said here seems hold true.

[LuxPerpetua]

Which "everything"?? There's been a lot said ;)

[theseed]

Which "everything"?? There's been a lot said ;)
The stuff about being becomming a god.

[alaurie]

Just a note here, if any of our Mormon friends do join in the discussion, I ask you: Please let us all remember Christ's call to love one another and that we are ambassadors for Him. Please be courteous and nice and DO NOT DEBATE with that person specifically over the teachings of the LDS church. We can debate among ourselves, but please let us leave them out of it. It would be a courtesy to us for them to help clear up our misunderstandings of their faith--so watch the low blows, okay?

LuxPerpetua,

They can't post here because of CF rule #6. This site is an excellent Christian site exposing the false doctrines of Mormonism and why they can't be considered Christian.

http://www.irr.org/mit/Default.html

It gets confusing if you're not familiar with their true teachings because they want so much now (historically this was NOT the case) to be considered just another Christian denomination- albeit the only correct one. The confusion is worsened by the fact, I believe, that satan is the author of their teachings. I do believe that Joseph Smith had a vision of what he thought was Christ telling him that all other churches were wrong and to found the true church- I just don't think it was Christ. He had dabbled in the occult beginning before his teens.

Matthew 24:23-27
At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There he is!' do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time. So, if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. For as lightning tat comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

You're so very right about the courteous and nice bit, though. Unfortunately a lot of Christians on this forum aren't very nice to the Mormons (and they can be pretty rude, too). I like Paul's advice to Timothy on how to deal with those with false doctrines.

2 Timothy 2:24-26
And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will gran them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

Educate yourself in the differences, love, pray and hopefully lead the Mormons you come into contact with to saving grace.

God bless :) ,
Allye

PS - Skylark1 is a Christian who lives in Utah. She's has great biblical knowledge, and unlike some of the Christians who post in the unorthodox theological doctrines, is very kind to the Mormons. She would be a good person to PM.

[LuxPerpetua]

Is it allowed by forum rules for him to pm a list of answers to our specific questions and then for me to post it? I'm just asking because the Mormon websites I've looked at can only go so deep, and I don't know how much I trust a refutation of Mormonism from a website of people whom for all I know don't know much at all about Mormonism other than what they've been told (which, is what I've seen concerning most refutations of Catholicism). It's kind of a catch 22 here.

[theseed]

you can post your questions in unorthodox theology.

[alaurie]

Is it allowed by forum rules for him to pm a list of answers to our specific questions and then for me to post it? I'm just asking because the Mormon websites I've looked at can only go so deep, and I don't know how much I trust a refutation of Mormonism from a website of people whom for all I know don't know much at all about Mormonism other than what they've been told (which, is what I've seen concerning most refutations of Catholicism). It's kind of a catch 22 here.

I don't know about the forum rules. The Mormon websites deliberately don't go deep. They have a whole "milk", "meat" concept that seems to be designed to pull people in. You get the healthy, happy family 'we believe in Jesus, too' milk then get the weird stuff later on- eternal sealings, planet progressions in eternity, exaltation (becoming a god). Typical cult MO.

The website above has a lot of testimonials of former Mormons who are now Christians. There are also several Christians who post in unorthodox theological doctrines who were once Mormons. They tend to get a little heated, though. Extreme cases of "church abused". :(

:) Allye

[LynneClomina]

i once did a lot of study on mormonism because i had a friend who was a mormon. the last post was right - they dont tell ppl the whole truth until they are higher up in the "chain". the higher up they go, the more info they are revealed. and when ppl want to leave, they arent allowed to. there are a lot of truly nice, sincere mormons out there who dont know the stuff i'm talking about. i recommend "the god makers" videos or books. yes, they believe they become gods if they are good mormons. and the men get to have their own planet, and the women spend all eternity making spirit babies. i would suggest going to some solid christian websites and finding articles on mormonism from the christian perspective, because, to be honest, most mormons have no idea about what goes on. if they havent gotten into church government they have no idea, and if they ask the higher ups, i believe i read they will be told that no, it's not true, we dont believe that. yes of course we are christians. but read stuff by those who WERE higher up and managed to get out of the LDS church alive. they'll tell ya. btw, when i started asking my friend about this stuff, she didnt have a clue - but her hubby promptly wouldnt let me have anything more to do with her. :sigh: i have no idea what happened with her or where she is. :cry:

[theseed]

i once did a lot of study on mormonism because i had a friend who was a mormon. the last post was right - they dont tell ppl the whole truth until they are higher up in the "chain". the higher up they go, the more info they are revealed. and when ppl want to leave, they arent allowed to.

This is why they are a cult, they suck people in and won't let them leave. Jim Jones did the same thing.

[Protoevangel]

I doubt that LDS consider themselves polytheistic"I will preach on the plurality of Gods. I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods".
-Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370

"Three separate personages: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, comprise the Godhead. As each of these persons is a God, it is evident, from this standpoint alone, that a plurality of Gods exists. To us, speaking in the proper finite sense, these three are the only Gods we worship. But in addition there is an infinite number of holy personages, drawn from worlds without number, who have passed on to exaltation and are thus gods".]
- Mormon Doctrine, pp. 576-577

I have never heard anything about God being created, men becoming gods, or any thing like that."I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did"
- LDS History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 305

"As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be"
- Ensign, February 1982, pp. 39-40





These teachings go directly contrary to what I understand the Bible to teach about God.
As far as salvation goes... I will leave the answer to the One who is perfect in judgement and mercy to answer.

[LynneClomina]

"I will preach on the plurality of Gods. I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods".
-Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370

"Three separate personages: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, comprise the Godhead. As each of these persons is a God, it is evident, from this standpoint alone, that a plurality of Gods exists. To us, speaking in the proper finite sense, these three are the only Gods we worship. But in addition there is an infinite number of holy personages, drawn from worlds without number, who have passed on to exaltation and are thus gods".]
- Mormon Doctrine, pp. 576-577

"I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did"
- LDS History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 305

"As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be"
- Ensign, February 1982, pp. 39-40





These teachings go directly contrary to what I understand the Bible to teach about God.
As far as salvation goes... I will leave the answer to the One who is perfect in judgement and mercy to answer.

oh oh oh, those quotes give me the creeps!!!!!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek: :rolleyes:

[Ben johnson]

Basically all the things that have been cited here are my understanding also. They believe that Jesus had a BEGINNING, that God-the-Father is EXALTED FLESH-N-BLOOD, that "salvation" is "eternal progression" towards godhood. And, salvation (as they define it), is based on WORKS.

Also, as I understand it, the Mormon concept is that mankind's FALL was NECESSARY and BENEFICIAL. It "freed" mankind to begin his progression. As the story goes, both Jesus and lucifer approached God with "plans of redemption", and God liked Jesus' better than lucifer's. (Which places Jesus more as a brother to lucifer than as Immanuel-God-with-us [Mtt1:23].)

Two foundational differences separate Christianity with religion. All others assert:
1. Jesus is NOT GOD, but a PROPHET, or FIRST-CREATED-BEING, etc.
2. Salvation (nirvanah, paradise-Earth, Heaven, godhood, whatever) is by WORKS.

Christianity asserts that salvation is a free, undeserved gift, given because of incredible LOVE --- by grace; it is received through faith. Works consequent from a saved heart, not vice-versa.
But the question then arises, if you believe in Jesus as the final atonement for sins and then live a life according to His commandments but do not have a full understanding (or even faulty understanding) of theology, are you saved?
Ahhh, but, LP, salvation is NOT A BELIEF. It is not a doctrine, not a dogma, not a list of "do's" or "don'ts". It is not a lifestyle, not "correct thinking" or "living rightly". Then what IS salvation?

Jesus says, salvation IS belief, in Jn3:16 & 6:40. Yet harmonizing with James in 2:19 ("You BELIEVE in one God, you do well; but even DEMONS believe, and SHUDDER...), it's not ANY kind of belief, but a CERTAIN kind of belief. And much MORE THAN belief.

Jesus said, "Unless you are HUMBLED as a child, you shall not enter the kingdom of God." Mtt18:3-4
Jesus said, "Only those who DO the will of the Father inherit the kingdom." Mtt7:21-23
Jesus said, "Unless you REPENT, you WILL perish." Lk13:3

So salvation depends on DEEDS and EFFORT? No.

Each of these conditions is written as: "Unless ____, you will not go to Heaven." Let's add one more:
"Unless you are BORN AGAIN, you CANNOT see Heaven." Jn3:3

It happens that the BORN-AGAIN is the umbrella under which all the others reside.

What does "born again" mean? Everybody's HEARD it, but how would you explain it to another?

Suppose you put the ENTIRE GOSPEL, all of Jesus' words, John, Matthew, Mark, Luke, Peter, Paul, James, Jude, put ALL of their words into a PAN, and place it on a stove; simmer it and reduce it, boil and boil until only one word is left --- one word that is the ESSENCE of salvation, complete and succinct in its description, ONE WORD that DEFINES us-who-are-Christian.

What would that ONE WORD, be?

"Our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ." 1Jn1:3

That's the word --- FELLOWSHIP. And yet, it's even deeper than that...

Look at Matt3:11-12; John-the-Baptist says "He who comes after me will IMMERSE you with the HOLY SPIRIT" --- this has nothing to do with water, but speaks of an INDWELLING --- the real, conscious, sentient, thinking-feeling person of the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD, indwells our hearts physically. Now look at Rm6:1ff; he uses 5 words, all mean the SAME: "United-buried-died-crucified-IMMERSED in JESUS". Jesus indwells us ALSO, in the intimate fellowship that communes with Him consciously.

"For I have been CRUCIFIED with Christ, it is no longer I who live but Christ LIVES IN ME; and the life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the One who loved me and delivered Himself up for me." Gal2:20

Rom6 speaks about "born again" ("You were UNITED with Him in DEATH [the old sinful self DIES]; and as He was raised from the dead, SO TOO shall YOU WALK IN NEWNESS OF LIFE! [born again!]) Rom7 the true war between the dead-but-not-gone (and sometimes ALIVE-SINNING) old nature, and the NEW nature. And Rom8 is the SOLUTION --- we are "under obligation to walk not by the FLESH (which is death), but by the SPIRIT we are putting to death (continuously) the deeds of the flesh, which is LIFE!"

"If any MAN (or woman!) be in Christ, he is a new creation; the old passes away, behold all has become new." 2Cor5:17

And that's really the essence, and the SIMPLICITY of salvation. Not "saying the sinner's prayer", but a true UNION between Creator and created. FELLOWSHIP IS SALVATION! Philip2:12-13 says that God does deeds THROUGH us, so we CANNOT be saved BY deeds; but the saved, by consequence DO good deeds --- as it is JESUS who does them THROUGH us!

Religion: "You are what you do."
Christianity: "You DO what you ARE!"

The term, "BORN-AGAIN", is identical with "INDWELT"; is identical with "IN CHRIST". Read 1Jn5:11-13, and it says: "He who HAS the Son, has the LIFE; I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may KNOW you have eternal life." Because salvation is ALL OF HIM, and NONE OF US, it is not arrogant nor pretentious to say "we're saved and bound for Heaven." Because it's not about us, it's about one man who paid the price for our sins on the Cross; we were bought by His blood, HE paid the entrance fee for Heaven for us! All that is required of us, is to truly receive Him as Savior, and receive Him as LORD-MASTER. "If you confess Jesus as LORD, and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead, YOU SHALL BE SAVED. For with the heart man believes (resulting in righteousness), and with the mouth he confesses (resulting in salvation)."

Fellowship is salvation. Fellowship by reading His word, fellowship by prayer: worship, repentance, delighting in HIs presence as He delights in ours (He really does, you know), intercession for the needs of others, and LAST pettition for our own needs or (godly) desires.

Was that the longest answer you've ever had, LP? :P

:)

[seebs]

One concern I continue to have is that I've met too many "ex-(blank)" Christians who, it turns out, are just making up stories to get attention. Thus, I take claims made about Mormons by evangelicals with a grain of salt.

It seems clear to me that there are serious problems with some branches of Mormon theology. To make it more confusing, there are of course multiple branches. Some seem to have revolted against others and come essentially full circle to normal Christian doctrine.

Judging by fruits, I have found that at least some of the Mormons I know appear to be touched by the Holy Spirit as much as anyone else. Judging by theology, they sound pretty wacky to me. I personally leave the question of their salvation between them and God; it is generally not my place to tell someone who acknowledges Christ as Lord that he's wrong in his religious beliefs.

[LuxPerpetua]

Judging by fruits, I have found that at least some of the Mormons I know appear to be touched by the Holy Spirit as much as anyone else. Judging by theology, they sound pretty wacky to me. I personally leave the question of their salvation between them and God; it is generally not my place to tell someone who acknowledges Christ as Lord that he's wrong in his religious beliefs.

This is how I feel, too. I'm not so sure that God will fault Mormons who don't know the deeper theology of their church. Like I said, all of the Mormons I've known have professed Christ as Lord and savior, and I'm not sure they know that their church teaches that Jesus is a separate God.

It is VERY difficult to get the answers I'm looking for on any of the LDS websites. I know from anti-Mormon message boards (my in laws regularly post on several) that there are lots of Mormons who leave the church but this is very difficult for them since many are disowned by their families afterward (JW's do this too, I think). My in laws have been ex-Mormons for years (they never got deep into Mormon beliefs--they just liked the emphasis upon charity and family--so I totally think that if what has been said above is true, then many if not most Mormons have NO CLUE what their church really believes in its theology). To my opinion, it's a real shame, though, that orthodox Christian churches don't do more to promote family values and charity like the Mormons. :sigh:

[LuxPerpetua]

Just so no one is confused: Until I started this thread I honestly knew VERY little about Mormonism. I can see why it is called a "cult" now, especially over the LDS church making it very difficult for members to leave and over their faulty theology regarding the separateness of the Trinity. I'm just not so sure how many lay Mormons themselves know the intracacies of their faith (well, to be honest, most orthodox Christians I've met in real life don't perfectly understand everything of their faith either). I HOPE IT DOES NOT COME ACROSS THAT I'M PROMOTING MORMONISM, or anything. Actually, based on the evidence provided in this thread, I'm WAY FAR FROM endorsing this church. (Yikes!)

Can anyone provide me with a credible orthodox Christian website on examining Mormonism (since I've had a very difficult time getting straight answers to their beliefs on the LDS website)?

[alaurie]

I HOPE IT DOES NOT COME ACROSS THAT I'M PROMOTING MORMONISM, or anything. Actually, based on the evidence provided in this thread, I'm WAY FAR FROM endorsing this church. (Yikes!)

Can anyone provide me with a credible orthodox Christian website on examining Mormonism (since I've had a very difficult time getting straight answers to their beliefs on the LDS website)?


It's not coming across to me that you're promoting Mormonism at all. You seem to me to be seeking to understand the truth about them, and how you can reach them in love- both wonderful things.

Another good website is http://www.truthinlovetomormons.com/index.htm

God bless,
Allye

[LuxPerpetua]

Thanks Allye (great name, by the way! My name is Allison, nicknamed Alli ;) )

I've bookmarked that site and will take a look at it later. It seems like a very good site, though. :)

[racer]

:o Ooops . . . at first glance I thought the question was, "what's the deal with morons?" :o

So, I was going to ask, "How much time do you have before we get this one started?" :sorry:

[LuxPerpetua]

Now THAT is so funny!!! What's the deal with morons!!!! I'm totally in hysterics. It must be a late night for you ;)

[Protoevangel]

You know, the morons are a cult. :P

In fact, I know this lady who used to be a moron. I shared the Gospel with her, and she left the moron cult. Now she's trying to save her moron husband and moron kids. :D

[racer]

Now THAT is so funny!!! What's the deal with morons!!!! I'm totally in hysterics. It must be a late night for you ;)

Nope. :sorry: That's just me alllll the time. Don't have a sign . . . . but I do have a T-shirt. ;)

[theseed]

You know, the morons are a cult. :P

In fact, I know this lady who used to be a moron. I shared the Gospel with her, and she left the moron cult. Now she's trying to save her moron husband and moron kids. :D
Mormonism is really sad, and nothing to joke about. :(

[LuxPerpetua]

I wasn't thinking moron=Mormon . . . I was thinking moron=moron (like what people become when they do stupid stuff). Not wanting to step on any toes ;)

[Protoevangel]

Mormonism is really sad, and nothing to joke about. theseed, no one is calling anyone a moron. We were all having a little fun because of a misunderstanding about the thread title. Remember this:

:o Ooops . . . at first glance I thought the question was, "what's the deal with morons?" :o

That is all. Please don't call the PC police on me! :bow: :rolleyes:

[Lotar]

You know, the morons are a cult. :P

In fact, I know this lady who used to be a moron. I shared the Gospel with her, and she left the moron cult. Now she's trying to save her moron husband and moron kids. :D
Wow! I'm sure glad she got out of Moronism.

Has anyone here read the Book of Moron?

:D

[Bulldog]

Has anyone here read the Book of Moron?
:D

I think you can tell who has and who hasn't. ;)

[theseed]

That is all. Please don't call the PC police on me

AI missed Racers comment, I read it but did not see "moron"

As long as your not making fun out of the Mormon religion, because they have mislead alot of people, and away from Jesus Christ.

[Protoevangel]

Not a problem bro!

And of course, the joke was at the expense of the Mormons. After all, if we were not discussing the Mormons, there would have been no frame of reference for morons to be funny. But, the joke was directed at the misunderstanding, and was not for the purpose of discounting the dangerousness of Mormon doctrine to unwary believers.

[theseed]

Not a problem bro!

And of course, the joke was at the expense of the Mormons. After all, if we were not discussing the Mormons, there would have been no frame of reference for morons to be funny. But, the joke was directed at the misunderstanding, and was not for the purpose of discounting the dangerousness of Mormon doctrine to unwary believers.
That's cool. I'm not meaning to sound like a stick in the mud. :) But I do see how the title "what's the deal with morons" would be funny. ^_^

[LuxPerpetua]

Actually I was thinking it would be a great idea to have a thread called "what's the deal with morons" and let it be a thread where we could all confess and show the world both our human failings and also the grace of forgiveness in God.

I was never thinking in this thread that the word "moron" was intended to be a word-play on Mormon. I just assumed that that person must have read the title quickly and missed the extra "m" in Mormon and so opened the thread expecting to see complaints against silly drivers or something of the sort.

[PatrickM]

Wow! I'm sure glad she got out of Moronism.

Has anyone here read the Book of Moron?

:D
You mean the book handed to Joe Smith by the "angel" Moroni ? ;) Been there, done that.

BTW, Jesus asked the disciples "Who do you say that I am?" It's not enuf to believe in a person named "Jesus", but who He really is. It's a matter of Who Jesus was that makes His substitutionary death on the cross valid, and thereby my sins are blotted out.

I knew a Jesus at work. He was a good guy and all, but wasn't God the Son, second person of the Trinity.

[LuxPerpetua]

I knew a Jesus at work. He was a good guy and all, but wasn't God the Son, second person of the Trinity.

Was he hispanic? I've known quite a few Joshuas in my day (which, is the same name as Jesus) but never a hispanic "Jesus." It's funny--I don't seem to mind the name Joshua too much, but to see someone named Jesus makes me feel weird. That's probably my own cultural socialization talking. ;)

[Krystina661]

You mean the book handed to Joe Smith by the "angel" Moroni ? ;)

Some of you people are being downright cruel. Now your making jokes and belittling Mormons.. :rolleyes:

I've copied all this and reporting it to Erwin. This is just unacceptable, especially on a Christian site which is supposed to be filled with love and understanding. If people have differences then discuss them, but don't go around calling them morons, because frankly, thats what your doing. :sigh:

[Protoevangel]

Some of you people are being downright cruel. Now your making jokes and belittling Mormons.. :rolleyes:

I've copied all this and reporting it to Erwin. This is just unacceptable, especially on a Christian site which is supposed to be filled with love and understanding. If people have differences then discuss them, but don't go around calling them morons, because frankly, thats what your doing. :sigh:
Too bad there isn't a good derisive term that sounds a lot like Lutheran, or I could make fun of myself in the same way. :D But then again, the term Lutheran originally was a derisive term.

Well, thanks for brining that to our attention Krystina661. Personally, my comments were not meant to be hurtful, as I explained already. In fact, I don't think anyone intended to be cruel, or anything like that. The whole thing started because of a misunderstanding about the thread title, and considering that context, I hope Erwin get's a little bit of a chuckle out of it. Sorry if we offended you (that goes for anyone who is not able to post here as well).

[BAChristian]

One concern I continue to have is that I've met too many "ex-(blank)" Christians who, it turns out, are just making up stories to get attention. Thus, I take claims made about Mormons by evangelicals with a grain of salt.

It seems clear to me that there are serious problems with some branches of Mormon theology. To make it more confusing, there are of course multiple branches. Some seem to have revolted against others and come essentially full circle to normal Christian doctrine.

Judging by fruits, I have found that at least some of the Mormons I know appear to be touched by the Holy Spirit as much as anyone else. Judging by theology, they sound pretty wacky to me. I personally leave the question of their salvation between them and God; it is generally not my place to tell someone who acknowledges Christ as Lord that he's wrong in his religious beliefs.
I couldn't agree more. Well said.

[Krystina661]

You know, the morons are a cult. :P

In fact, I know this lady who used to be a moron. I shared the Gospel with her, and she left the moron cult. Now she's trying to save her moron husband and moron kids. :D

That's not hurtful Dan??

[theseed]

That's not hurtful Dan??
I think they are talking about a religion called "moron" and not mormons, but the thought came from somone misreading Mormon for "moron"

[PatrickM]

I think they are talking about a religion called "moron" and not mormons, but the thought came from somone misreading Mormon for "moron"
Indeed, as my reference was to the "book" of Mormon. I don't think a book is a person, which can be insulted, do you?

[Eusebios]

I am far too often a moron, and I get a kick out of myself.:)

[Krystina661]

I am far too often a moron, and I get a kick out of myself.:)


:D

[Protoevangel]

That's not hurtful Dan??Yes, it might be hurtful to someone in the moron cult. But a person who is Mormon by religion, hopefully, would be mature enough to notice that the joke was referencing a misunderstanding about the thread title.

Look at my name. Imagine growing up with the last name "Head"; you don't need to lecture me on hurtful. ;)

Read through all of my posts, nowhere do I call the Mormons a cult, nowhere do I call any religion a cult. Cult is truly a derogatory term, in it's modern, popular usage.

I have been known to tell blond jokes; I lack no respect for blond people. Would you jump all over me for one of those? I have been known to tell redneck jokes; I have no problem with the white rural laboring class of the southern United States. Would you want to rip my liver out after hearing one of those? I have even told lawyer jokes; I don't... Wait, bad example, I do hate lawyers :D

Once again, the joke was referencing the misunderstanding and prejudice. The purpose was is mirth, not mockery. But of course, I cannot control how people perceive my communications, and these days, what is perceived is more important than what is intended. I have already offered an apology, which you have apparently refused to accept. The apology is genuine; if what I said was offensive to you, I am sorry, that was not my intention.




I am far too often a moron, and I get a kick out of myself.Absolutely! I am sure no one here can outdo some of my moronic deeds!

[LynneClomina]

That's not hurtful Dan??

do you know any morons personally? you could ask them personally if it hurts them. and yeah, i'm saying MORONS, and as i read the posts i read MORONS. that coveres pretty much everybody in the world at one time or another. moronism is a universal affliction.

[good4u]

Lux,

Let's get back to the original discussion, shall we? Are Mormons just another branch of Christianity or are the r-e-a-l-l-y a cult?

It will help you understand your own Chrisitan faith when you understand the essential Christian doctrines of the Christian faith. Once you understand them, you will immediately be able to distinguish God's eternal truth as the standard from even subtle error. This is incredibly important and how cult differientiate from true orthodox Christianity.

If even one essential Christian doctrine is not adhered to by that religious group, then you can KNOW without a dobut that it is either a heretical religious group or a flat out cult, regardless of what that religious group states otherwise.

It is this important for you as I see are very young and this is important for your Christian growth.

So to answer your question, yes Mormonism is definitely a cult.

God's grace to you.

[Adoniram]

Hey Danhead-

I've heard of a group called Looterans. They are ardent followers of no book, but usually end up getting the book thrown at them.

[LuxPerpetua]

Lux,

Let's get back to the original discussion, shall we? Are Mormons just another branch of Christianity or are the r-e-a-l-l-y a cult?

It will help you understand your own Chrisitan faith when you understand the essential Christian doctrines of the Christian faith. Once you understand them, you will immediately be able to distinguish God's eternal truth as the standard from even subtle error. This is incredibly important and how cult differientiate from true orthodox Christianity.

If even one essential Christian doctrine is not adhered to by that religious group, then you can KNOW without a dobut that it is either a heretical religious group or a flat out cult, regardless of what that religious group states otherwise.
It is this important for you as I see are very young and this is important for your Christian growth.

So to answer your question, yes Mormonism is definitely a cult.

God's grace to you.

I guess then the question becomes, how much of Christian doctrine is essential. I've always felt as far as essential doctrine goes:

Triune, co-eternal God, who has existed from the beginning and created everything
Christ, the incarnation of God, as the final and atonement for sins
Belief that humans are slaves to sin and are in need of a savior, which was given to us as Christ
Salvation by grace through faith in Christ's sacrifice and the works that come naturally out of true faith
Belief in baptism and the Eucharist as seals and reminders of our new covenant with God through Christ
Belief that since Christ was resurrected into eternal life that Christians will be too through their faith in Him as their savior
Belief in the final judgment of humanity by Christ
Belief in life eternal with Christ as children of God in the New Jerusalem


It seems to me that the "peripheral" Christian beliefs don't really matter and they tend to cause the schism that is present in our church. The problem is that I don't know how much Mormons believe in these things, since I know very little of Mormonism.

[good4u]

Lux,

Yes, that is very good start!!!

From this you should be able to answer your own question about Mormonism.

For when you really understand Orthodox Christianity is fundamentally different from Mormonism and do you conclude that it is?

It always boils down to this one single question: Is the Jesus that Group A (insert name) says the same thing that the Bible says who Jesus is?

If it is, then they are within the pale of Christian Orthodoxy. If not, then you know that this group is a false religion.

It really is that simple. So then, you ask yourself this when you run across religious teaching: Who do you say that Jesus is?

To be accurate and true the answer will always be the Jesus of the Bible and only the Bible. :)

[theseed]

Hey Danhead-

I've heard of a group called Looterans. They are ardent followers of no book, but usually end up getting the book thrown at them.^_^

[LuxPerpetua]

I just wanted say a quick thanks to everyone who has provided me with links and info on Mormonism, including several Mormons on CF. I appreciate the openness on both sides. :)

[Protoevangel]

Hey Danhead-

I've heard of a group called Looterans. They are ardent followers of no book, but usually end up getting the book thrown at them.That's it, you're just trying to be hurtful now!:mad: :cry:

:D LOL :D

Weren't they started by that guy Marty Looter?

After he got kicked out of his church for troublemaking?

[Bulldog]

Looterans are dangerous, we need to stay far way from them. :D