Dealing with Falsehood

[CrossWiseMag]

I'm relatively new here, but I have a question for all of you. How do you handle the fact that there are people all over this discussion forum preaching false doctrine? It's one thing to go into the general theology board, and to see that people are openly denying the last will and testament of Jesus, by denying the presence of his body and blood for the forgiveness of sins. But at least that's taking place in the context of a theological discussion.

But have you been into the discussion areas for non-Christians? There are people who have heard of Jesus, and who are hurting, and are asking questions, and they are being literally bombarded with falsehood about how they must first accept Christ, before Christ can save them! It's incredibly sad, and it angers me, too. Some of these people need to have the Gospel spoken to them. "Christ died for you." They do not need more law: "Accept Christ or else."

Do any of you go into these other areas, and how do you handle it? A single voice is easily drowned out. And I don't want to start an inter-Christian fight that will reflect badly on Christ. But there are literally people saying, "I just can't believe right now. I understand what you're saying, but I can't accept it." Well, duh! Say hello to your sinful nature! Just know, whether you believe it or not, that Christ died for you. But this is not what they're getting.

I suppose I would encourage all of you, if you're not doing it already, to go speak the Gospel loudly and clearly to people who need to hear it, here or elsewhere. That Gospel is not spoken often enough, even by people who intend to speak it.

[SPALATIN]

I'm relatively new here, but I have a question for all of you. How do you handle the fact that there are people all over this discussion forum preaching false doctrine? It's one thing to go into the general theology board, and to see that people are openly denying the last will and testament of Jesus, by denying the presence of his body and blood for the forgiveness of sins. But at least that's taking place in the context of a theological discussion.

But have you been into the discussion areas for non-Christians? There are people who have heard of Jesus, and who are hurting, and are asking questions, and they are being literally bombarded with falsehood about how they must first accept Christ, before Christ can save them! It's incredibly sad, and it angers me, too. Some of these people need to have the Gospel spoken to them. "Christ died for you." They do not need more law: "Accept Christ or else."

Do any of you go into these other areas, and how do you handle it? A single voice is easily drowned out. And I don't want to start an inter-Christian fight that will reflect badly on Christ. But there are literally people saying, "I just can't believe right now. I understand what you're saying, but I can't accept it." Well, duh! Say hello to your sinful nature! Just know, whether you believe it or not, that Christ died for you. But this is not what they're getting.

I suppose I would encourage all of you, if you're not doing it already, to go speak the Gospel loudly and clearly to people who need to hear it, here or elsewhere. That Gospel is not spoken often enough, even by people who intend to speak it.
David,

I understand what you are saying here. I have not ventured there yet though I should. There are many in the Gen Theology forum that I have argued with but that is as far as I have gone outside of the Lutheran forum.

Are there any threads or forums in particular that you have seen that need a voice like mine to come in and give them the message they truly need to hear? I think at times we get too comfortable in our own little shell and don't venture out to fulfill the Great Commission.

Thanks for the wake up call Brother.

Scott Strohkirch

[CrossWiseMag]

Well, check out the "Questions by Non-Christians" forum, under the thread, "Tell me why I should believe." I just lost my patience with someone who posted the following:

the number one reasons pray goes unanswered is you have some sort of sin in your life. you can argue that but its true. it took me six years to be healed. i realized that i had sin in my life. as soon as i got the sin out of my life, i was healed. you cant go expecting God to work in your life when you are not even being faithful to him.

You don't need to read the whole thread. The next-to-last post, and my most recent post, pretty much sum up the problem with places like this. And to make matters worse, these kinds of false teachings are what you find when you walk into a "Christian" bookstore! It's sad to know that people are being thrown back on their own works by modern evangelicals, who don't even realize they're doing it.

[SPALATIN]

Well, check out the "Questions by Non-Christians" forum, under the thread, "Tell me why I should believe." I just lost my patience with someone who posted the following:

the number one reasons pray goes unanswered is you have some sort of sin in your life. you can argue that but its true. it took me six years to be healed. i realized that i had sin in my life. as soon as i got the sin out of my life, i was healed. you cant go expecting God to work in your life when you are not even being faithful to him.

You don't need to read the whole thread. The next-to-last post, and my most recent post, pretty much sum up the problem with places like this. And to make matters worse, these kinds of false teachings are what you find when you walk into a "Christian" bookstore! It's sad to know that people are being thrown back on their own works by modern evangelicals, who don't even realize they're doing it.
Just read your answer back to Cambria. You hit the nail on the head with that answer. I also went to a non-christian forum titled Struggles by Non-Christians. The thread was called "Sex before Marriage. The original post was from a girl who had just given her viginity away to her Boyfriend of one year. She said that Her father had taught the virtue of waiting until married, but not with a religious pov. The father had also given her a "promise ring" to give to her significant other once they were married. She was asking if this was an unforgiveable sin. I told her that it wasn't and that the only unforgiveable sin is rejection of Christ.

Thanks for the boost on this. I never would have considered doing this at this time had you not put your OP here. You are so correct about challenging the false doctrine here.

[Zoomer]

the number one reasons pray goes unanswered is you have some sort of sin in your life. you can argue that but its true. it took me six years to be healed. i realized that i had sin in my life. as soon as i got the sin out of my life, i was healed. you cant go expecting God to work in your life when you are not even being faithful to him.
This false doctrine is one the frustrates me the most. How can someone say they do not sin? It says in 1 John 1:8-10 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." Those are pretty strong words. How can one be totally free of sin? We sin in thought, word, and deed by thing done and thing left undone. We can sin consciously and unconsciously, purposefully and without even knowing.

[filosofer]

This false doctrine is one the frustrates me the most. How can someone say they do not sin? It says in 1 John 1:8-10 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." Those are pretty strong words. How can one be totally free of sin? We sin in thought, word, and deed by thing done and thing left undone. We can sin consciously and unconsciously, purposefully and without even knowing.
As with all false doctrine, there is an element of truth. Sin does need to be dealt with. However, that is not a magic wand to bring healing. In fact, Paul prayed to have his "thorn in the flesh" removed, and it was not. Jesus' answer was "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness" (2 Cor. 12). Some have the view that "I can only be of use to God if healed"; the tragedy is that the testimony is often to the healing and not to God's power and mercy to forgive sins, restore relationships, etc.

[IowaLutheran]

Well, check out the "Questions by Non-Christians" forum, under the thread, "Tell me why I should believe." I just lost my patience with someone who posted the following:

the number one reasons pray goes unanswered is you have some sort of sin in your life. you can argue that but its true. it took me six years to be healed. i realized that i had sin in my life. as soon as i got the sin out of my life, i was healed. you cant go expecting God to work in your life when you are not even being faithful to him.


That guy, by denying the fact that he is a sinner, is committing the most egregious sin of all, self-idolatry, a/k/a mirror worship.

[Zoomer]

I have a quick question. In the "Tell me why I should believe" post, this comment was made:

You know, first of all, God doesn't hear the prayers of unrepentant sinners. The Bible says that five different ways in both the Old and New Testaments.

What is the Lutheran take on this? I have always thought that God hears the prayers of everyone. I am also looking for the scripture to which the poster is referring.

[PurpleBunny]

I have a quick question. In the "Tell me why I should believe" post, this comment was made:

You know, first of all, God doesn't hear the prayers of unrepentant sinners. The Bible says that five different ways in both the Old and New Testaments.

What is the Lutheran take on this? I have always thought that God hears the prayers of everyone. I am also looking for the scripture to which the poster is referring.
I'm not sure what that quote is referring to, but mightn't it be better to say that God hears all prayers... God just doesn't always say 'yes' to selfish, self-serving prayers that really aren't in the best interest of the petitioner... and I know when I'm being unrepentent my prayers tend to be selfish (ie... take away my guilt even though it's wrong and I'm still doing it)

[ByzantineDixie]

I haven't checked out the thread yet so I do not know the details but with regard to answered prayer I thought I would share something I was taught. Feel free to correct it...I am actually throwing it out for discussion.

I was taught that if you are not a member of God's family...you ought not expect God to answer your prayers. And the story was relayed to me this way.

Suppose a young boy needs a new pair of shoes and asks his father to buy them. Well, unless there is a compelling reason not to buy the shoes, the father will surely get them for his son. However...now suppose a strange young boy comes up to the same father and asks him to buy shoes. What is the likelihood of the father getting the strange boy, not a member of the family, shoes? Sometimes the father may decide to be generous and do so...sometimes he may not.
In essence answered prayer is the promise for the believer. Thoughts?

Peace

Rose

[KagomeShuko]

I'm not sure what that quote is referring to, but mightn't it be better to say that God hears all prayers... God just doesn't always say 'yes' to selfish, self-serving prayers that really aren't in the best interest of the petitioner... and I know when I'm being unrepentent my prayers tend to be selfish (ie... take away my guilt even though it's wrong and I'm still doing it)
I always thought God heard all prayers. I can't think of any time that God doesn't hear a prayer in the Bible. Now, His answer may be "no" and it may be "wait" and it may be "yes," but I don't think God doesn't hear prayers - even those of the unrepentant. After all, we are His creation and He knows us better than we know ourselves, so why wouldn't He hear all prayers and just have the answer be "no" to lots of them.

I think it would be totally stupid for me to sit here and pray for me to win the lottery. Sure, that would be so nice, but I really have no desire to win the lottery and there are so many other important things that should be in my prayers. So, if I were to pray that, even if I really wanted it, and even if I decided I didn't sin, then God would still hear that, but I don't doubt His answer would be a definite no.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[CrossWiseMag]

My understanding is that God does not hear prayers outside of Christ. Those outside of Christ are not "heard" by God. Now, that's not to say that God literally _can't_ hear those prayers.

Think of it in the opposite terms. What is it that allows us to approach God at all? Only the perfection of Christ, imputed to us. Unbelievers do not have that Therefore, they are not able to approach God.

The only thing important an unbeliever could pray for that would do him any good would be for God to save him, and God desires that anyway.

[ByzantineDixie]

My understanding is that God does not hear prayers outside of Christ. Those outside of Christ are not "heard" by God. Now, that's not to say that God literally _can't_ hear those prayers.

Think of it in the opposite terms. What is it that allows us to approach God at all? Only the perfection of Christ, imputed to us. Unbelievers do not have that Therefore, they are not able to approach God.

The only thing important an unbeliever could pray for that would do him any good would be for God to save him, and God desires that anyway.Nice way of putting it...I pulled this from the Catechism which also supports this way of looking at prayer.

"Our Father in heaven."

Here God would encourage us to believe that he is truly our Father and we are truly his children—in order that we may approach him boldly and confidently in prayer, even as beloved children approach their dear father.

Peace

Rose

[CrossWiseMag]

Caution: Rant Ahead

Okay, I give up. I remember why I had stopped paying attention to discussion groups online. It's like banging your head against a wall to get people to look past their pre-conceptions. If I ever step into the "General Theology" board again, someone please pull out a taser gun and shock me in a sensitive area. I don't need this kind of heartburn.

That being said, I think I'll still pop into the "Outreach" boards occasionally to dispute the junk being taught in there. But arguing with a Baptist about baptism and the Lord's Supper is enough to make me want to pull my hair out!!

Don't worry, I'll calm down eventually. It's just that I can only take so many instances of people completely ignoring what the text says in favor of some other meaning because the "Spirit" led them to that conclusion. Aargh!!

[CrossWiseMag]

Whew! I feel a lot better now! ;)

[SPALATIN]

Caution: Rant Ahead

Okay, I give up. I remember why I had stopped paying attention to discussion groups online. It's like banging your head against a wall to get people to look past their pre-conceptions. If I ever step into the "General Theology" board again, someone please pull out a taser gun and shock me in a sensitive area. I don't need this kind of heartburn.

That being said, I think I'll still pop into the "Outreach" boards occasionally to dispute the junk being taught in there. But arguing with a Baptist about baptism and the Lord's Supper is enough to make me want to pull my hair out!!

Don't worry, I'll calm down eventually. It's just that I can only take so many instances of people completely ignoring what the text says in favor of some other meaning because the "Spirit" led them to that conclusion. Aargh!!
One thing to say about Baptists. They are sincere in their beliefs.

I believe they are also wrong which would make them "sincerely wrong".

[LuxPerpetua]

Well, the other issue is, how much good does it do to argue about every little point? From what I've seen in real life and on message boards, it rarely edifies the body of Christ. So long as someone realizes that Communion is a special remembrance of what Christ has done for us and is only for Christians, then I let it alone. Now, if they were making fun of our belief in the Real Presence or saying that it's ridiculous or something, then I would correct them in love. Personally, I get far more upset over "true church" arguments than either communion or baptism stuff. All orthodox Christians that I know of take both communion and baptism very seriously and respectfully, and so long as they all understand that these rites/sacraments are important in some way to the Christian faith, then I let them go. For the common lay person, I don't see how theological debate is helpful and if anything it seems to make people more resistant to points of view other than their own, which ultimately undermines the reasoning of why one was arguing with them in the first place.

[KagomeShuko]

Well, the other issue is, how much good does it do to argue about every little point? From what I've seen in real life and on message boards, it rarely edifies the body of Christ. So long as someone realizes that Communion is a special remembrance of what Christ has done for us and is only for Christians, then I let it alone. Now, if they were making fun of our belief in the Real Presence or saying that it's ridiculous or something, then I would correct them in love. Personally, I get far more upset over "true church" arguments than either communion or baptism stuff. All orthodox Christians that I know of take both communion and baptism very seriously and respectfully, and so long as they all understand that these rites/sacraments are important in some way to the Christian faith, then I let them go. For the common lay person, I don't see how theological debate is helpful and if anything it seems to make people more resistant to points of view other than their own, which ultimately undermines the reasoning of why one was arguing with them in the first place.
Yep, I'm the same, as long as they see the importance of these sacraments and can respect each others' beliefs., I don't argue over the "hows" of them. The "hows" are not really important.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[CrossWiseMag]

These aren't "how" arguments. These are teachings which throw sinners back on their own power for their keeping of the "ordinances" of baptism and the Lord's Supper. I can't respect that, nor does Christ. They turn Gospel into Law. It is sin.

On the other hand, they've been told, and there's no need to continue telling them over and over. That's why I'm going to stop arguing unless they're spreading their falsehood in front of people who are new to the faith and haven't hardened their hearts to the reality of all of God's gifts.

[SPALATIN]

These aren't "how" arguments. These are teachings which throw sinners back on their own power for their keeping of the "ordinances" of baptism and the Lord's Supper. I can't respect that, nor does Christ. They turn Gospel into Law. It is sin.

On the other hand, they've been told, and there's no need to continue telling them over and over. That's why I'm going to stop arguing unless they're spreading their falsehood in front of people who are new to the faith and haven't hardened their hearts to the reality of all of God's gifts.

How true. I can't tell you the amount of times in the past 5 months that I have posted something on the GT forum and now the Outreach forums that have to correct these Arminian/Calvinist/Baptist teachings.

The problem is that people see that Christians can't agree on these things and then they don't want to have anything to do with any of us.

[filosofer]

We can also rejoice with Paul that even though they get it wrong, Christ is still proclaimed (Phil 1).

And we can take comfort in the fact that someone is not saved by holding correct theology, but rather faith in Christ. The felicitious inconsistency of those who teach Calvinism or Arminianism means that we don't necessarily have to correct everyone for God to still be about the work of saving and sanctifying people.

[CSMR]

That's a good point filosofer.
There are people who have heard of Jesus, and who are hurting, and are asking questions, and they are being literally bombarded with falsehood about how they must first accept Christ, before Christ can save them! It's incredibly sad, and it angers me, too. Some of these people need to have the Gospel spoken to them. "Christ died for you." They do not need more law: "Accept Christ or else."
I'm not sure that you are right here. Why is "Accept Christ" Law? It's not as if these people are saying that accepting christ is a virtuous act? Or denying that God is behind any acceptance of the gospel?

[CrossWiseMag]

Anything that we must do is law. When a person is struggling with his life, and realizes his sinful condition, he should be told merely that Christ died for him. He doesn't need to be told more things to do -- including to "accept" Christ. The Bible is clear that we do not accept Christ, but that he accepts us. Check out the "What Does It Matter?" article at www.crosswisemag.com (http://www.crosswisemag.com) to see what happens when we tell people they must accept Christ.

[filosofer]

Anything that we must do is law. When a person is struggling with his life, and realizes his sinful condition, he should be told merely that Christ died for him. He doesn't need to be told more things to do -- including to "accept" Christ. The Bible is clear that we do not accept Christ, but that he accepts us. Check out the "What Does It Matter?" article at www.crosswisemag.com (http://www.crosswisemag.com/) to see what happens when we tell people they must accept Christ.
It is interesting that the Biblical word is "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 16:25-33), which is a good Gospel initiated word. "Accept" has been turned into an active person-initiated activity to receive God's grace.