Lots of big questions. :)

[CyberSponge]

Hi,

Here are some questions that I've been thinking about for quite some time. If nothing else, I think it'll help get us thinking about some very important aspects of our faith. :)

Thanks!
CS

1. what is the nature of the soul?
2. what is the nature of the body?
3. what happens after we die (immediately, after awhile, long term)?
4. what do we mean by "life after death"?
5. when are we judged?
6. how are we judged?
7. what part do our works have in judgement?
8. what part does our faith in Christ have in our judgement?
9. what does "faith in Christ" mean?
10. what does Christ's crucifixion mean for us?
11. what is salvation?
12. what does the "resurrection" mean?

Update:
I realized that when I posted these questions, I didn't really explain WHY I was asking them. I am asking them because I *think* that they are very central to our faith, yet I rarely see these related questions answered together. More typically, they are answered in little pieces with no attempt to "iron out the wrinkles" that occur when theology is dealt with in a piecewise fashion.

I am NOT asking them b/c I'm somehow trying to "test" anyone (as though I know the answers to the questions, above).

I'm also not looking just for the "well-educated" opinions. I don't think that the answers to the above questions are necessarily long. I'm more interested in what your impression of the answers are, in the context of your experience as an Orthodox Christian (or else as a serious inquirer/catechumen). In fact, I'm expecting quite some variance in the answers, in large part due to the fact that we all have different backgrounds, have different favorite writers, and on.

I have no intention of criticizing any opinions laid out in this thread, and I hope that all others are also charitable. :)
So give it a shot! At least on a few of them! :D

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Bump!

I don't want this thread to fade away unnoticed. I hope someone will be able to tackle some of these questions.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Hmmm.....I MUST read more of St. Cyril of Jerusalem! Here are some things he said about soul and body:

"Tell me not that the body is the cause of sin. For if the body is a cause of sin, why does not a dead body sin? Put a sword in the right hand of one just dead, and no murder takes place. Let beauties of every kind pass before a youth just dead, and no impure desire arrises. Why? Because the body sins not of itself, but the soul sins through the body. The body is an instrument and, as it were, a garment and robe of the soul: and if by this latter it be given over to fornication, it becomes defiled: but if it dwell with a holy soul, it becomes the temple of the Holy Spirit. It is not I that say this, but the Apostle Paul: 'Know ye not that your bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you?' (I Cor. 6:19). Be tender, therefore, of thy body as being a temple of the Holy Spirit: pollute not thy flesh in fornication: defile not this thy fairest robe; and if ever thou hast defiled it, now cleanse it by repentance. Get thyself washed, while time permits." (St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical lecture 4)

"There is nothing polluted in the human frame, except a man defile this with fornication and adultry. He who formed Adam also formed Eve; male and female were formed by God's hands. None of the members of the body as formed from the beginning is polluted. Let the mouths of all heretics be stopped who slander their bodies, or rather Him who formed them." (St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 12).

[Rick of Wessex]

CS,

I'll try to answer some of these:

3. what happens after we die (immediately, after awhile, long term)?
4. what do we mean by "life after death"?
5. when are we judged?
6. how are we judged?

The Orthodox view of the afterlife
by Presbytera Irene Matta, M. Th.

Paradise was not available to Adam and Eve once they had been driven away from its Tree of Life, preventing them to continue in the body of flesh and sin. The restoration of Human Nature by the Lord Jesus heals the wound, or the "sting" of Death. St. Paul declares with joy, that, "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord," giving his spiritual children comfort with these words.

In his first epistle to the Thessalonians (4:18), St. Paul writes that they were to comfort "one another" with the knowledge that Christ has overcome Death, and that they would be once again joined with their loved ones. Sheol, or Hades, is no longer the destination of the Christian after death, since the obedience and reconciliation of Man to God through Christ. Now, Paradise (though not yet Heaven) beckons to us as it did to Adam, the angels lead us into the presence of the Lord and into our heavenly rest to await the reunion with the body. The fullness of the Heavenly reward awaits that reunion.

The Hebrew "Sheol" is not equivalent to "hell" or "gehenna," or even to the Hellenic concept of "hades," a word which the fathers appropriated with a considerably different meaning. The apostles and the holy fathers used the Greek word hades synonymously with the Hebrew Sheol. It designates a "state or condition of being," not a physical location. It also designates the place or power of death; that which Christ conquered. It was not a state or condition without hope, for even among the most ancient books of the Bible, we find the holy prophet Job referring clearly to the resurrection of the body and its reunion with the soul. He prophesies, "If a man die, shall he live again? All the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my transformation...and where is my hope now?...I know that my Redeemer liveth and that He will stand at the latter day upon the earth: and...in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself." [Job 14:14; 17:13; 19:25-26.]

Thus, Sheol or Hades was a certain darkness, figuratively or metaphorically referred to as "below the earth," describing a state of being for souls before the coming of Christ. It was, however, also a "land with promise," because the Old Testament faithful certainly hoped on the coming redemption and, as Prophet Job reveals, they connected that promised redemption with the hope of physical resurrection. Only after the Old Testament scriptures had been written was it understood that good and evil had a recompense after death, and that the soul could be aware of that coming recompense immediately after death; indeed, the soul might, by its very knowledge of the coming resurrection and judgment, endure already a certain psychological suffering for its deeds even before the resurrection.

St Gregory of Nyssa gives us an expression of the state of the soul immediately after death, saying:

"..the 'gulf' (in the Lazarus parable), which is not made by the parting of the earth, but by those decisions in this life which result in a separation into opposite characters. The man who has once chosen pleasure in this life, and has not cured his inconsiderateness by repentance, places the land of the good beyond his own reach; for he has dug against himself the yawning impassable abyss... that nothing can break through. This is the reason, I think, that the name "Abraham's bosom" is given to that good situation of the soul in which the Scripture makes the athlete of endurance repose.

For it is related of this patriarch first... that he exchanged the enjoyment of the present for the hope of the future; he was stripped of all the surroundings in which his life at first had passed, and resided among foreigners, and thus purchased by present annoyance future blessedness. As then figuratively we call a particular circular of the ocean a `bosom', so does the Scripture seem to me to express the idea of those measureless blessings above by the word 'bosom', meaning a place into which all virtuous voyagers of this life are, when they have put in from hence, brought to anchor in the waveless harbour of that bay of blessings. Meanwhile the denial of these blessings which they witness becomes in others a flame which burns the soul and causes the craving for the refreshment of one drop out of that ocean of blessings wherein the saints are affluent; which nevertheless they do not get...Surely the "hades" we have just been speaking of cannot reasonably be thought a place so named; rather we are told by Scripture about a certain unseen and immaterial condition [or, situation] in which the soul resides." [St. gregory of Nyssa - On The Soul and the Resurrection, para.54.]

St. Epiphanius, Bishop of Cyprus during the time of the Churchs battle against Arianism, uses magnificent poetic prose to tell his flock of Christ's Descent into Hades -- to those in Sheol who had hoped in the Promise of salvation through Gods Anointed. Adam hears His footsteps coming to rescue them from the hold of death and Satan, who reigned over death. With Christs coming, the gates of Hades were struck down (pictured in the Resurrection icon), and Satan, along with his demons, was routed. The holy bishop puts words of longing in Adams mouth as he hears his Saviour coming:

"Thereupon Adam turned towards all his fellow captives from ages past and said, 'I hear the sound of Someones feet advancing towards us, and if He deigns to come even to this place, we shall be freed of our bonds.. we shall be delivered from Hades! ..And the Master entered within, holding the Cross as a weapon of victory. ...[He says to Adam], 'I am thy God, Who for thy sake became thy Son, ....now I say Come Forth!, and to those in darkness, Be Enlightened!, and to those asleep, Arise! ...For I did not fashion thee to be held in Hades as a captive. ...Arise, My creation, arise, Mine image, who wast also made in My likeness!" [St. Epiphanius Homily on the Resurrection tran. Holy Transfiguration Monastery, Brookline, MA.]

In this dramatic sermon, first preached at the Vigil of the Resurrection, the saint teaches us through Christs own words, about the recapitulation of Adams disobedience by Christs obedience, and the restoration of Adams nature (and our own), by His passion, death, and victory over death:

In a garden I was crucified. Behold upon My countenance the spittings which I received for thy sake so as to restore to thee the ancient in-breathing [of the Spirit]. ...Behold upon My back the scourgings which I accepted so as to scatter the burden of thy sins. ...Behold My hands, which unto good were nailed to the tree [of the Cross] for thee, who unto evil didst stretch forth thy hand to the tree [to sin]. ...I accepted the reed, so as to undersign [the writ of] freedom for the race of men. I slept upon the Cross, and by a blade was pierced in the side for thee, from whose side whilst thou wast sleeping in Paradise Eve was brought forth. ....My sleep shall wrest thee from the sleep of Hades; ...The bridal chamber is made ready, the delicacies are prepared, the eternal tabernacles and abodes are waiting, the treasuries of good things are thrown open, the Kingdom of Heaven has been prepared before the ages... [St. Epiphanius Homily on the Resurrection tran. Holy Transfiguration Monastery, Brookline, MA.]


St. Ambrose of Milan makes clear the condition of the soul and body after death, and the unity of the two, saying:

And this is the course and ground of justice, that since the actions of body and soul are common to both (for what the soul has conceived, the body has carried out), each should come into judgment...for it would seem almost inconsistent that...the mind guilty of a fault shared by another should be subjected to penalty, and the flesh, the author of the evil, should enjoy rest: and that that alone should suffer which had not sinned alone, or should attain to glory not having fought alone, with the help of grace.

St. Irenaeus of Lyons is like-minded when he says:
For it is just that in the very same condition in which they (the body and the soul) toiled or were afflicted, being proved in every way by suffering, they should receive the reward of their suffering...

St Titus of Bostra, rebuking the Manicheans, confirms this thought in words quoted by St John the Damascene:
For the soul cannot enjoy anything, or possess, or do anything, or suffer, except it be together with the body, being the same as it was created in the beginning, and thus it enjoys that which is proper to it. This state is lost in death through the disobedience of Adam, and again through the obedience of the one Christ, through hope it receives (in the resurrection) again the state of being a person.

The soul, nevertheless, since it possesses man's intellectual faculties, is not comatose or ignorant of its fate. St. Irenaeus gives us a description of the state of humanity at death, before the resurrection joins the body to the soul, "[Souls after being parted from the body at death] possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognized, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, ....each class [of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the [Last] judgment." [That is, either they go to Abraham's Bosom or to Hades]

St Justin Martyr explains this further, "The souls of the pious remain in a better place [Abraham's Bosom], while those of the unjust and wicked are in a worse place [Hades], waiting for the time of judgment."

Thus, the Church waits for the Lord of Glory to complete His work of redemption in us, to bring together body and soul, separated by death because of sin. St John's Apocalypse speaks to us who wait:

And the Spirit and the Bride say, 'Come!' And let him who hears say, 'Come!' And let him who thirsts...take water freely." (Rev.22:17)

[Rick of Wessex]

Excerpt from "A Bad Penny", by Michael Azkoul
Full text is here (http://orthodoxcanada.org/062003/editorial.html).

In the third century, St Hippolytus of Rome (170-236) described in his Against Plato, On the Cause of the Universe, the traditional Christian thanatology. This treatise is of no assistance to the Toll-housers.(21) In fact it is a refutation of their system.

According to St. Hippolytus, all the departed, righteous and unrighteous, go immediately and directly to and are detained in hades. There is light in one part of it, darkness in the other. "This locality was destined to be, as it were, a guard-house for souls, at which the angels are stationed as guards, each soul distributed according to his deeds" "And to one side of this place, there is set aside a lake of unquenchable fire. We suppose that no one has ever been cast into it. It has been prepared against the day determined by God, in which He will utter one sentence of righteous judgment justly applied to all." To this place of endless punishment shall be sent the unrighteous, which are not only atheists but those who fashioned idols by attributing to men what really belonged to God.

To hades all souls have come by "one descent" (mia kathodos). At its gate is stationed an archangel with his host. Led by the angels assigned to each group of souls, all enter the gate. The righteous go one way, the unrighteous another. The first are conducted to the right though a passage of light, "and being hymned by the angels stationed there, are brought to a locality full of light." There the righteous have dwelt from the beginning, ruled by no necessity, but always enjoying the vision of "the divine Good", ever taking ineffable pleasure in the new expectations, which they anticipate as more glorious than what they already have. This place demands no toil; nor do they endure or "fierce heat, cold thorn." They look, always smiling, upon the face of their "righteous fathers." "This temporary place we call Abraham's Bosom," where the righteous await "the incorruptible and unfading Kingdom," "the heavenly place where they will find eternal renewal".

But the unrighteous have been forcibly dragged as "prisoners" by "the angels of punishment" (hypo angelon kolaston) to the darkness of the left of hades. Their angels "threaten them with the sight of things terrible, pushing them into the lower parts, and eventually to Gehenna." The hot smoke and fire horrify them. The unrighteous are also distraught by the blessed state of the saved that they see across "the deep and vast abyss that divides them." They cannot, however, pass from the left to the right side, nor may any of the sympathizing (sympathesanta) righteous pass to them. Like the saved, the unrighteous are detained in hades "until the time which God has determined; and then He will accomplish a resurrection of all, not by transferring souls into other bodies, but by raising the souls with their own bodies." The Final Judgement will come, and God's Plan fulfilled (1-2 PG 10 796A-799A).

I would wager that St Hippolytus provides us with a generally accepted view of the soul after death. His metaphors reveal the truth about hades. Palpably, his thanatology shares nothing in common with the Toll-house heterodoxy. We cannot even be certain that "the angels of punishment" and "guards of the left" are demons. He also firmly states that unrighteous souls are sent to "dark hades" by their sins, not of any tribunal of demons, sitting at Toll-houses.

Hades-left is a "prison" and the damned are its "prisoners." Unlike the righteous whose existence adumbrates eternal joy and renewal, the unrighteous may expect the "lake of fire" that was placed next to their abode for them to see.

[Rick of Wessex]

7. what part do our works have in judgement?
8. what part does our faith in Christ have in our judgement?
Faith or Works? (http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/essence_christianity_1.htm#_Toc68647087), by Bp. Alexander Mileant

9. what does "faith in Christ" mean?
10. what does Christ's crucifixion mean for us?
The meaning of Christ's Cross (http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/cross.htm), by Bp. Alexander Mileant

11. what is salvation?
The way into the Kingdom of Heaven (http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/king_e.htm), by St. Inocentius of Alaska

12. what does the "resurrection" mean?
The Ressurection of Christ (http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/resur.htm), by Bp. Alexander Mileant

[Rick of Wessex]

1. what is the nature of the soul?
2. what is the nature of the body?



Man — the Crown of Creation
by Fr. Michael Pomazansky, from his book "Orthodox Dogmatic Theology"

In the ladder of the earthly creation, man is placed on the highest rung, and in relationship to all earthly beings he occupies the reigning position. Being earthly, according to his gifts he approaches the heavenly beings, for he is "a little lower than the angels" (Ps. 8:5). And the Prophet Moses depicts man's origin in this way: "After all the creatures of the earth had been created, And God said, Let us make man in Our image, after Our likeness; and let him have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the air … and over all the earth … So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him" (Gen. 1:26-27).

1. In itself, the counsel of God, which is not indicated at the creation of the other creatures of the earth, clearly speaks of the fact that man was to be a special creation, distinct from the others, the highest, most perfect on earth, having also a higher purpose in the world.

2. The concept of man's high purpose and his special significance is emphasized yet more in the fact that the counsel of God ordained that man be created "in the image and likeness of God," and that in fact he was created in God's image. Every image necessarily presupposes a similarity with its archetype; consequently, the presence of God's image in man testifies to a reflection of the very attributes of God in man's spiritual nature.

3. Finally, certain details of man's creation which are given in the second chapter of Genesis emphasize once more a special preeminence of human nature. To be precise, it is said there: "And God formed man of the dust of the earth, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul" (Gen. 2:7). Two actions, or two aspects of action, are distinguished here, and they may be understood as simultaneous: the formation of the body, and the giving of life to it. St. John Damascene notes: "The body and the soul were formed at the same time, not one before and the other afterwards, as the ravings of Origen would have it" (Exact Exposition, Bk. 2, ch. 12, "On Man"). According to the description of the book of Genesis, God created the body of man from already existing earthly elements, and He created it in a very special fashion: not by His command or word alone, as was done in the creation of the other creatures, but by His own direct action. This shows that man, even in his bodily organization, is a being surpassing all other creatures from the very beginning of his existence. Further, it is said that God breathed into his face the breath of life and the man became a living soul. As one who has received the breath of life, in this figurative expression, from the mouth of God Himself, man is thus a living, organic union of the earthly and the heavenly, the material and the spiritual.

4. From this follows the exalted view of the significance of the human body as is set forth generally in the Sacred Scripture. The body must serve as the companion, organ, and even fellow laborer of the soul. It depends on the soul itself whether to lower itself to such an extent that it becomes the slave of the body, or, being guided by an enlightened spirit, to make the body its obedient executor and fellow-laborer. Depending upon the soul, the body can be a vessel of sinful impurity and foulness, or it can become a temple of God, participating with the soul in the glorification of God. This is taught in Sacred Scripture (Rom. 13:14; Gal. 3:3; 1 Cor. 9:27; Gal. 5:24; Jude 7-9; 1 Cor. 3:16-17; 1 Cor. 6:20). Even with the death of the body, the bond of the soul with the body is not cut off forever. The time will come when the bodies of men will arise in a renewed form and will again be united forever with their souls, in order to receive a part in eternal blessedness or torment, corresponding to the good or evil deeds performed by men with the participation of the body in the course of earthly life (2 Cor. 5:10).

An even more exalted view is instilled in us by the word of God regarding the nature of the soul. At the creation of the soul, God took nothing of it from the earth, but imparted it to man solely by His creative inbreathing. This clearly shows that, in the conception of the word of God, the human soul is an essence completely separate from the body and from everything material and composed of elements, having a nature not earthly, but above the world, heavenly. The high pre-eminence of man's soul compared to everything earthly was expressed by the Lord Jesus Christ in the words: "What is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?" (Matt. 16:26). The Lord instructed His disciples: "Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul" (Matt. 10:28).

Concerning the exalted dignity of the soul, St. Gregory the Theologian expresses himself thus: "The soul is the breath of God, and while being heavenly, it endures being mixed with what is of the dust. It is a light enclosed in a cave, but still it is divine and inextinguishable … The Word spoke, and having taken a part of the newly-created earth, with His immortal hands formed my image and imparted to it His life; because He sent into it the spirit, which is a ray of the invisible Divinity" (Homily 7, "On the Soul").

Nevertheless, one cannot make such exalted figurative expressions of the Holy Fathers into a foundation for teaching that the soul is "divine" in the full sense of the word, and that consequently, it had an eternal existence of its own before its incarnation in earthly man, in Adam. (This view is found in those contemporary theological philosophical currents which follow V.S. Soloviev). The very statement that the soul is of heavenly origin does not mean that the soul is divine in essence. "He breathed the breath of life" (Gen. 2:7) is an anthropomorphic expression, and there is no basis for understanding it as meaning that he gave something of His Divine substance. After all, man's breathing is not an "outbreathing" of the elements of human nature itself, nor even of its physical essence. Likewise, from the Biblical expression one cannot draw the conclusion that the soul proceeded from the Essence of God nor is an element of the Divinity. Chrysostom writes, "Certain senseless ones, being drawn away by their own conceptions, without thinking of anything in a God-befitting manner, and without paying any attention to the adaptation of the expressions (of Scripture), dare to say that the soul has proceeded from the Essence of God. O frenzy! O folly! How many paths of perdition has the devil opened up for those who wish to serve him! In order to understand this, behold the opposite ways in which these people go: some, seizing on the phrase, "He breathed," say that souls proceed from the Essence of God; others, on the contrary, affirm that souls are converted into the essence of the lowest irrational creatures. What can be worse than such folly?" (Commentary on the Book of Genesis).

That St. Gregory the Theologian spoke of the divinity of the soul not in the strict sense of the word is evident from another homily of his: "The nature of God and the nature of man are not identical; or, to speak more generally, the nature of the Divine and the nature of the earthly are not identical. In the Divine nature, both existence itself and everything in It which has existence are unchangeable and immortal; for, in that which is constant, everything is constant. But what is true of our nature? It flows, is corrupted, and undergoes change after change" (Homily 19, "On Julian").

We have already spoken in the chapter on the Attributes of God (on God as Spirit) of the question as to how one should understand anthropomorphic expressions about God. Here let us only cite the argument of Blessed Theodoret: "When we hear in the account of Moses that God took dust from the earth and formed man, and we seek out the meaning of this utterance, we discover in it the special good disposition of God towards the human race. For the great prophet notes, in his description of the creation, that God created all the other creatures by His word, while man He created with His own hands. But just as we understand by "word" not a commandment, but the will alone, so also, in the formation of the body, (we should understand) not the action of hands, but the greatest attentiveness to this work. For in the same way that now, by His will, the fruit is generated in a mother's womb, and nature follows the laws which He gave to it from the very beginning — so also then, by His will the human body was formed from the earth, and dust became flesh." In another passage Blessed Theodoret expresses himself in a general way: "We do not say that the Divinity has hands . . . but we affirm that every one of these expressions indicates a greater care on God's part for man than for the other creatures" (quoted in the Dogmatic Theology of Metr. Macarius, Vol. I, p. 430-431).


The soul as an independent substance
The ancient Fathers and teachers of the Church, strictly following the Sacred Scripture in the teaching on the independence of the soul and its value in itself, explained and revealed the distinctness of the soul from the body in order to refute the materialistic opinion that the soul is only an expression of the harmony of the members of the body, or is a result of the body's physical activity, and that it does not have its own particular spiritual substance or nature. Appealing to simple observation, the Church Fathers show:


a. that it is characteristic of the soul to govern the strivings of the body, and characteristic of the body to accept this governance (Athenagoras and others).

b. that the body is, as it were, a tool or instrument of an artist, while the soul is the artist (Sts. Irenaeus, Gregory of Nyssa, Cyril of Jerusalem, and others).

c. that the soul is not unconditionally subject to the impulses of the body; it is even capable of entering into warfare with the strivings of the body as with something foreign and hostile to it, and is able to gain a victory over it, thus showing that it is not the same thing as the body but is an invisible essence, is of a different nature, surpassing every bodily nature (Origen).

d. that it is intangible and ungraspable, and is neither blood, nor air, nor fire, but a self-moving principle (Lactantius).

e. that the soul is a power which brings all the members of the organism into full harmony and full unity (Sts. Athanasius the Great, Basil the Great).

f. that the soul possesses reason, self-awareness, and free will (Origen and others).

g. that man, while he is in the body on earth, mentally thinks of that which is heavenly and beholds it; being mortal in his body, he reasons about immortality and often, out of love for virtue, he draws upon himself suffering and death; having a body which is temporal, with his mind he contemplates the eternal and strives towards it, disdaining that which is under his feet. The body itself would never have imagined such things (St. Athanasius the Great).

h. that speaking of the very nature of the soul, the Fathers and teachers of the Church point to the simplicity and immateriality of the soul, as opposed to the complexity and material crudeness of the body; they indicate its invisibility and complete absence of form, and in general to the fact that it is not subject to any of the measurements (space, weight, etc.) to which the body is subject (Origen and others).


With regard to the fact that the conditions of the body are reflected in the activities of the soul, and that these conditions can weaken and even corrupt the soul — for example, during illness, old age, or drunkenness — the Fathers of the Church often compare the body to an instrument used in steering. The different degrees of the soul's manifestation in the body testify only to the instability of the instrument — the body. Those conditions of the body which are unfavorable for the manifestation of the soul may be compared to a sudden storm at sea which hinders the pilot from manifesting his art but does not prove that he is absent. As another example, one might take an untuned harp, from which even the most skilled musicians cannot bring forth harmonious sounds (Lactantius). So also, poor horses give no opportunity for a horseman to demonstrate his skill (Blessed Theodoret).

Certain ancient Fathers (Sts. Ambrose, Pope Gregory the Great, John Damascene), while acknowledging the spirituality of the soul as distinct from the body, at the same time also ascribe a certain comparative corporality or materiality to the soul. By this supposed attribute of the soul they had in mind to distinguish the spirituality of the human soul, as also the spirituality of angels, from the most pure spirituality of God, in comparison with which everything must seem material and crude.

(continues below)

[Rick of Wessex]

[continued from above]

The origin of the souls
How the soul of each individual man originates is not fully revealed in the word of God; it is "a mystery known to God alone" (St. Cyril of Alexandria), and the Church does not give us a strictly defined teaching on this subject. She decisively rejected only Origen's view, which had been inherited from the philosophy of Plato, concerning the pre-existence of souls, according to which souls come to earth from a higher world. This teaching of Origen and the Origenists was condemned by the Fifth Ecumenical Council.

However, this conciliar decree did not establish whether the soul is created from the souls of a man's parents and only in this general sense constitutes a new creation of God, or whether each soul is created immediately and separately by God, being joined at a definite moment to the body which is being or has been formed. In the view of certain Fathers of the Church (Clement of Alexandria, John Chrysostom, Ephraim the Syrian, Theodoret), each soul is created separately by God, and some of them refer its union with the body to the fortieth day after the body's formation. (Roman Catholic theology is decisively inclined toward the view that each soul is separately created; this view has been set forth dogmatically in several papal bulls, and Pope Alexander VII linked with this view the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of the Most Holy Virgin Mary.)

In the view of other teachers and Fathers of the Church (Tertullian, Gregory the Theologian, Gregory of Nyssa, Macarius the Great, Anastasius the Presbyter), both soul and body receive their beginning simultaneously and mature together; the soul proceeds from the souls of the parents just as the body proceeds from the bodies of the parents. In this way "creation" is understood here in a broad sense as the participation of the creative power of God which is present and essential everywhere, for every kind of life. The foundation of this view is the fact that in the person of our forefather Adam, God created the human race: "He hath made of one blood all nations of men" (Acts 17:26). From this it follows that in Adam the soul and body of every man was given in potentiality. But God's decree is brought into reality in such a way that God holds all things in His hand: "He giveth to all life, and breath, and all things" (Acts 17:25). God, having created, "continues to create."

St. Gregory the Theologian says, "Just as the body, which was originally formed in us of dust, became subsequently the current of human bodies as has not been cut off from the first-formed root, in one man including others — so also the soul, being inbreathed by God, from that time comes together into the formed composition of man, being born anew, and from the original seed (St. Gregory evidently means here a spiritual seed) being imparted to many and always preserving a constant form in mortal members … Just as the breath in a musical pipe produces sounds depending upon the width of the pipe, so also the soul, appearing powerless in an infirm body, becomes manifest as the body is strengthened and reveals then all its intelligence" (Homily 7, "On the Soul"). St. Gregory of Nyssa has the same view.

In his diary, St. John of Kronstadt has this observation: "What are human souls? They are all one and the same soul, one and the same breathing of God, which God breathed into Adam, which from Adam until now is disseminated to the whole human race. Therefore all men are the same as one man, or one tree of humanity. From this there follows the most natural commandment, founded upon the unity of our nature: ‘Thou shall love the Lord thy God (thy Prototype, thy Father) with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength; and thy neighbor (for who is closer to me than a man who is like me and of the same blood with me?) as thyself’ (Luke 10:27). There is a natural need to fulfill these commandments" (My Life in Christ).


The immortality of the soul
Faith in the immortality of the soul is inseparable from religion in general and, all the more, comprises one of the fundamental objects of the Christian Faith.

Nor is this idea foreign to the Old Testament. It is expressed in the words of Ecclesiastes: "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return to God Who gave it" (Eccl. 12:7). The whole account in the third chapter of Genesis — from the words of God's warning: "Of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil thou shalt not eat of it, for in the day that thou eat thereof thou shalt surely die" (Gen. 2:17) — is the answer to the question of the appearance of death in the world, and thus it is in itself an expression of the idea of immortality. The idea that man was foreordained to immortality, that immortality is possible, is contained in the words of Eve: "Of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of Paradise, God hath said, ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die" (Gen. 3:3). The same thought is expressed by the Psalmist in the words of the Lord: "I said Ye are gods, and all of you the sons of the Most High. But like men ye die and like one of the rulers do ye fall" (Ps. 81:6-7).

One must emphasize the fact that the idea of immortality is present without any doubt in the Old Testament, because there exists an opinion that denies that the Jews had faith in the immortality of the soul. In the accounts of Moses there are indications of faith in the immortality of the soul. Concerning Enoch, Moses remarks that "he was not; for God took him" — that is, he went to God without undergoing death (Gen. 5:24). From the Biblical expressions concerning the deaths of Abraham (Gen. 25:8), Aaron and Moses (Deut. 32:50), "and he was gathered to his people," it is illogical to understand that this means they were placed in the same grave or place, or even in the same land with their people, since each of these Old Testament righteous ones died not in the land of his ancestors but in the new territory of their resettlement (Abraham) or their wandering (Aaron and Moses). Patriarch Jacob, having received news that his son had been torn to pieces by beasts, says, "I will go down into hades unto my son, mourning" (Gen. 37:35, Septuagint). "Hades" here clearly means not the tomb, but the place where the soul dwells. This condition of the soul after death was expressed in the Old Testament as a descent into the underworld; that is, as a joyless condition in a region where even the praise of the Lord is not heard. This is expressed in a number of passages in the book of Job and in the Psalms.

But already in the Old Testament, and especially as the coming of the Savior approaches, there is heard a hope that the souls of righteous men will escape this joyless condition. For example, in the Wisdom of Solomon we find: "The souls of the righteous are in the hand of God, and no torment will ever touch them … The righteous live forever, and their reward is with the Lord" (3:2; 5:15). The hope of the future deliverance from hades of the souls of the righteous is more clearly and distinctly expressed in the words of the Psalmist: "My flesh shall dwell in hope, for thou wilt not abandon my soul in hades, nor wilt thou suffer Thy holy one to see corruption" (Ps. 15:9-10; see also Psalm 48:16).

The Lord Jesus Christ often pointed to the immortality of the soul as the foundation of pious life, and He accused the Sadducees, who denied immortality. In His farewell conversation with His disciples the Lord told them that He was going to prepare a place for them so that they might be where He Himself would be (John 14:2-3). And to the thief He said, "Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with Me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43).

In the New Testament, generally speaking, the truth of the immortality of the soul is the object of a more complete revelation, making up one of the fundamental parts of Christian faith itself. This truth inspires a Christian, filling his soul with the joyful hope of eternal life in the Kingdom of the Son of God. St. Paul writes, "For to me to die is gain … having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ (Phil. 1:21, 23). For we know that, if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven" (2 Cor. 5:1-2).

It goes without saying that the holy Fathers and teachers of the Church have unanimously preached the immortality of the soul, with this distinction only: that some acknowledge the soul as being immortal by nature, while others — the majority — say that it is immortal by the grace of God. "God wishes that the soul might live" (St. Justin Martyr); "the soul is immortal by the grace of God Who makes it immortal" (St. Cyril of Jerusalem and others). The Holy Fathers by this emphasize the difference between the immortality of man and the immortality of God, Who is immortal by the very essence of His nature and therefore "Who only hath immortality," according to the Scripture (1 Tim. 6:16).

Observation shows that faith in the immortality of the soul has always been inwardly inseparable from faith in God, to such an extent that the degree of the former is determined by the degree of the latter. The more lively is one's faith in God, the more firm and undoubting is his faith in the immortality of the soul. And, on the contrary, the weaker and more lifeless is one's belief in God, the greater the wavering and doubt one brings to the truth of the immortality of the soul. One who completely loses or stifles faith in God within himself usually ceases to believe in the immortality of the soul or the future life at all. This is surely understandable. A man receives the power of faith from the very Source of life, and if he cuts off his tie with this Source, he loses this stream of living power. Then no rational proofs or persuasions will be able to pour the power of faith into him.

One might also make the opposite conclusion. In those confessions and world views — even though they might be Christian — where the power of faith in the active existence of the soul beyond the grave has grown dim, where there is no prayerful remembrance of the dead, Christian faith itself is in a condition of decline. One who believes in God and acknowledges God's love cannot allow the thought that his Heavenly Father might wish to completely cut off his life and deprive him of the bond with Himself, just as a child who loves his mother and is loved by her in turn does not believe that she would not wish him to have life.

One may rightly say that in the Orthodox Eastern Church the acknowledgment of the immortality of the soul occupies a fitting central place in the system of teaching and in the life of the Church. The spirit of the Church typicon, the content of the Divine services and separate prayers, all support and animate in the faithful this awareness, this belief in a life beyond the grave for the souls of our close ones who have died, as well as a belief in our own personal immortality. This belief sheds a bright ray on the whole life's work of an Orthodox Christian.

[continues below]

[Rick of Wessex]

[continued from above]

Soul and spirit
The spiritual principle in man which is opposed to the body is designated in Sacred Scripture by two terms which are almost equal in significance: "spirit" and "soul." The use of the word "spirit" in place of "soul," or both terms used in exactly the same meaning, is encountered especially in the Apostle Paul. This is made evident, for example, by placing the two following texts side by side: "Glorify God in your body and in your soul, which are God's" (1 Cor. 6:20); and "Let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit" (2 Cor. 7:1).

In addition, there are two passages in the writings of this Apostle where soul and spirit are mentioned side by side, and this gives occasion to ask the question: Is the Apostle not indicating that, besides the soul, there is also a "spirit" that is an essential part of human nature? Likewise, in the writings of certain Holy Fathers, particularly in the ascetic writings, a distinction is made between soul and spirit. The first passage in the Apostle Paul is in the Epistle to the Hebrews: "The word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart" (Heb. 4:12). Another passage from the same Apostle is in the Epistle to the Thessalonians: "Your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thes. 5:23). It is not difficult, however, to see that in the first passage the spirit is to be understood not as a substance that is separate and independent from the soul, but only as the inward and most hidden side of the soul. Here the relation of soul and spirit is made parallel to the relationship between the members of the body and the brain, and just as the brain is the inward part of the same bodily nature, or is a content as compared to its container, so also the spirit is evidently considered by the Apostle as the hidden part of the soul of a man.

In the second passage, by "spirit" is evidently meant that special higher harmony of the hidden part of the soul which is formed through the grace of the Holy Spirit in a Christian: the "spirit" of which the Apostle says elsewhere, "quench not the spirit" (1 Thes. 5:19), and "fervent in spirit" (Rom. 12:11). Thus, the Apostle is not thinking here of all men in general, but only of Christians or believers. In this sense the Apostle contrasts the "spiritual" man with the "natural" or fleshly man (1 Cor. 2:14-15). The spiritual man possesses a soul, but being reborn, he cultivates in himself the seeds of grace; he grows and brings forth fruits of the spirit. However, by carelessness towards his spiritual life he may descend to the level of the fleshly or natural man: "Are ye so foolish? Having begun in the spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Gal. 3:3). Therefore, there are no grounds for supposing that the thinking of the Apostle Paul is not in agreement with the teaching that the nature of man consists of two parts.

This same idea of the spirit as the higher, grace-given form of the life of the human soul is evidently what was meant by those Christian teachers and Fathers of the Church in the first centuries who distinguished in man a spirit as well as a soul. This distinction is found in St. Justin Martyr, Tatian, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, Gregory of Nyssa, Ephraim the Syrian, and likewise in later writers and ascetics. However, a significant majority of the Fathers and teachers of the Church directly acknowledge that man's nature has two parts: body and soul (Sts. Cyril of Jerusalem, Basil the Great, Gregory the Theologian, John Chrysostom, Blessed Augustine, St. John Damascene). Blessed Theodoret writes: "According to the teaching of Apollinarius (the heretic) there are three composite parts in a man: the body, the animal soul, and the rational soul, which he calls the mind. But the Divine Scripture acknowledges only one soul, not two, and this is clearly indicated by the history of the creation of the first man. God, having formed the body from the dust and breathed a soul into it, showed in this wise that there are two natures in man, and not three."

The image of God in man
The sacred writer of the account of man's creation relates, "And God said: Let us make man in Our image, after Our likeness … So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them" (Gen. 1:26-27).

In what does the image of God in us consist? The Church's teaching tells us only that in general man was created "in the image," but precisely what part of our nature manifests this image is not indicated. The Fathers and teachers of the Church have answered this question in various ways: some see it (the image) in reason, others in free will, still others in immortality. If one brings together their ideas, one obtains a complete conception of what the image of God in man is, according to the teaching of the Holy Fathers.

First of all, the image of God may be seen only in the soul, not in the body. According to His nature, God is most pure Spirit, not clothed in any kind of body and not a partaker of any kind of materiality. Therefore the image of God can refer only to the immaterial soul — many Fathers of the Church have considered it necessary to give this warning.

Man bears the image of God in the higher qualities of the soul, especially in the soul's immortality, in its freedom of will, its reason, and in its capability for pure love without thought of gain.

The eternal God gave immortality of soul to man, even though the soul is immortal not by nature but only by the goodness of God.

God is completely free in His actions, and He gave to man free will and the ability to act freely within certain boundaries.

God is most wise, and He has given man a reason which is capable of being not limited only to earthly, animal needs and to the visible side of things, but is capable of penetrating to their depths, of recognizing and explaining their inward meaning. Man's reason is able to rise to the level of that which is invisible and of striving in thought towards the very Source of all that exists — God. Man's reason makes his will conscious and authentically free, because it can choose that which corresponds to man's highest dignity rather than that to which his lower nature inclines him.

God created man in His goodness and He has never left him nor ever will leave him without His love. Man, having received his soul from the breathing of God, strives towards his first Principle, God, as towards something akin to himself, seeking and thirsting for union with Him. This is specifically shown in the straight and upright posture of his body, and his gaze, which turns up towards heaven. Thus, this striving towards and love for God expresses the image of God in man.

In summary, one may say that all of the good and noble qualities and capabilities of the soul are an expression of the image of God in man.

Is there a distinction between the "image" and the "likeness" of God? The majority of the Holy Fathers and teachers of the Church reply that there is. They see the image of God in the very nature of the soul, and the likeness in the moral perfecting of man in virtue and sanctity, in the acquirement of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Consequently, we receive the image of God from God together with existence, but the likeness we must acquire ourselves, having received the possibility of doing this from God.

To become "in the likeness" depends upon our will; it is acquired in accordance with our own activity. Therefore, concerning the "counsel" of God it is said: "Let us make man in Our image, after Our likeness" (Gen. 1:26), but with regard to the very act of creation it is said: "God created man in His own image" (Gen. 1:27). About this St. Gregory of Nyssa reasons, "By God's ‘counsel,’ we were given the potential to be ‘in His likeness.’"


The purpose of man
Having raised man above all the earthly world, having given him reason and freedom, having adorned him with His own image, the Creator thus indicated to man his especially high purpose. God and the spiritual world lie before man's spiritual gaze; before his bodily gaze lies the material world.

a. The first purpose of man is the glory of God. Man is called to remain faithful to his bond with God, to strive towards Him with his soul, to acknowledge Him as his Creator, to glorify Him, to rejoice in union with Him, to live in Him. "He filled them with knowledge and understanding," says the most wise son of Sirach with regard to the gifts God has given to man. "He set His eye upon their hearts to show them the majesty of His works. And they will praise His holy name, to proclaim the grandeur of His works" (Sirach 17:6-10). For if all of creation is called, according to its ability, to glorify the Creator (as is stated, for example, in Psalm 148), then of course man, as the very crown of creation, is all the more intended to be the conscious, rational, constant, and most perfect instrument of the glory of God on earth.

b. For this purpose, man should be worthy of his Prototype. In other words, he is called to perfect himself, to guard his likeness to God, to restore and strengthen it. He is called to develop and perfect his moral powers by means of good deeds. This requires that a man take care for his own good, and his true good lies in blessedness in God. Therefore one must say that blessedness in God is the aim of man's existence.

c. Man's immediate physical gaze is directed to the world. Man has been placed as the crown of earthly creation and the king of nature, as is shown in the first chapter of the book of Genesis. In what way should this be manifested? Metropolitan Macarius speaks of it thus in his Orthodox Dogmatic Theology: "As the image of God, the son and inheritor in the house of the Heavenly Father, man has been placed as a kind of intermediary between the Creator and the earthly creation: in particular he has been foreordained to be a prophet for it, proclaiming the will of God in the world in word and deed; he is to be its chief priest, in order to offer a sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving to God on behalf of all those born of earth, thus bringing down upon earth the blessings of heaven; he is to be head and king so that by concentrating the aims of all existing visible creatures in himself, he might through himself unite all things with God, and thus keep the whole chain of earthly creatures in a harmonious bond and order."

Thus was the first man created, capable of fulfilling his purpose and of doing so freely, voluntarily, joyfully, according to the attraction of his soul, and not by compulsion. The idea of man's royal position on earth causes the Psalmist to praise the Creator ecstatically, "O Lord, our Lord, how wonderful is Thy Name in all the earth! For Thy magnificence is lifted high above the heavens … For I will behold the heavens, the works of Thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which Thou hast founded. What is man, that Thou art mindful of him? Or the son of man, that Thou visitest Him? Thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, with glory and honor hast Thou crowned him, and Thou hast set him over the works of Thy hands … O Lord, our Lord, how wonderful is Thy Name in all the earth!" (Ps. 8:1, 3-5, 8).


From creation to the majesty of the Creator
The Apostle instructs, "The invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen . . . even His eternal power and Godhead" (Rom. 1:20). That is, the invisible things of God are seen through beholding the creation. In all epochs of human history, the best minds, reflecting deeply on the world, have paused with astonishment before the majesty, harmony, beauty and rationality of the order of the world, and have been raised up from this to reverent thoughts of the goodness, majesty and wisdom of the Creator. St. Basil the Great, in his homilies on the six days (Hexaemeron), examines the first words of the book of Genesis. "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" — and then calls on his hearers: "Let us glorify the superb Artist Who created the world most wisely and skillfully; and from the beauty of that which is visible, let us understand Him Who surpasses all in beauty: from the majesty of these sensible and limited bodies let us make a conclusion regarding Him Who is endless, Who surpasses every majesty, and in the multitude of His power surpasses every understanding." And then, going to the second homily, as it were pausing in hopelessness at penetrating further into the depths of creation, he utters these words: "If the entrance to the holy is such, and the entryway of the temple is so praiseworthy and majestic … then what is to be said of the Holy of Holies? And who is worthy to enter into the Holy Place? Who will stretch forth his gaze to that which is hidden?"

[Rick of Wessex]

12. what does the "resurrection" mean?


The Resurrection of Christ
By Fr. Michael Pomazansky (+1988), from his book "Orthodox Dogmatic Theology"

The saving fruits of the Resurrection of Christ
The Resurrection of Christ is the foundation and the crown of our Orthodox Christian Faith. The Resurrection of Christ is the first, most important, great truth, with the proclamation of which the Apostles began their preaching of the Gospel after the descent of the Holy Spirit. Just as by the death of Christ on the Cross our Redemption was accomplished, so by His Resurrection eternal life was given to us. Therefore, the Resurrection of Christ is the object of the Church’s constant triumph, its unceasing rejoicing, which reaches its summit in the Feast of the Holy Christian Pascha. "Today all creation is glad and rejoices, for Christ has risen!" (Canon of Pascha, Canticle 9). The saving fruits of the Resurrection of Christ are:

the victory over hell and death;

the blessedness of the saints in heaven and the beginning of the existence of the Heavenly Church;

the sending down of the Holy Spirit and the creation of the Church of Christ on earth.


A. The victory over hell and death
Human existence after the loss of Paradise has two forms: a) the earthly, bodily life; and b) the life after death.

Earthly life ends with the death of the body. The soul preserves its existence after bodily death also, but its condition after death, according to the word of God and the teaching of the Fathers of the Church, is diverse. Until the coming to earth of the Son of God, and until His Resurrection from the dead, the souls of the dead were in a condition of rejection, being far away from God, in darkness, in hell, in the underworld (the Hebrew "Sheol," Gen. 37:35, Septuagint). To be in hell was like spiritual death, as is expressed in the words of the Old Testament Psalm, "In hades who will confess Thee?" (Ps. 6:6) In hell there were imprisoned also the souls of the Old Testament righteous ones. These righteous ones lived on earth with faith in the coming Saviour, as the Apostle Paul explains in the eleventh chapter of his Epistle to the Hebrews, and after death they languished in expectation of their redemption and deliverance. Thus it continued until the Resurrection of Christ, until the coming of the New Testament: "And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise, God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect" (Heb. 11:39-40). Our deliverance was also their deliverance.

Christ, after His death on the Cross, descended in His soul and in His Divinity into hell, at the same time that His body remained in the grave. He preached salvation to the captives of hell and brought up from there all the Old Testament righteous ones into the bright mansions of the Kingdom of Heaven. Concerning this raising up of the righteous ones from hell, we read in the Epistle of St. Peter: "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit; by which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison" (1 Peter 3:18-19). And in the same place we read further: "For this cause was the Gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit" (1 Peter 4:6). St. Paul speaks of the same thing: quoting the verse of the Psalm, "When He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men," the Apostle continues: "Now that He ascended, what is it but that He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things" (Eph. 4:8-10).

To use the words of St. John Chrysostom, "Hell was taken captive by the Lord Who descended into it. It was laid waste, it was mocked, it was put to death, it was overthrown, it was bound" (Homily on Pascha).

With the destruction of the bolts of hell, that is, the inescapability of hell, the power of death also was annihilated. First of all, death for righteous men became only a transition from the world below to the world above, to a better life, to life in the light of the Kingdom of God; secondly, bodily death itself became only a temporary phenomenon, for by the Resurrection of Christ the way to the general Resurrection was opened to us.

"Now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first-fruits of them that slept" (1 Cor. 15:20). The Resurrection of Christ is the pledge of our resurrection: "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive; but every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits: afterward they that are Christ’s at His coming" (1 Cor. 15:22-23). After this, death will be utterly annihilated. "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" (1 Cor. 15:26).

The troparion of Holy Pascha proclaims to us with special joy the victory over hell and death: "Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and on those in the tombs bestowing life." "Christ ascended up far above all heavens, that He might fill all things" (Eph. 4:10).


B. The Kingdom of Christ and the triumphant Church
Before His departure to the Father, the Lord Jesus Christ said to the Apostles: "In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself that where I am, there ye may be also" (John 14:2-3). The Saviour prayed to the Father, "Father, I will that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am; that they may behold My glory which Thou hast given Me" (John 17:24). And the Apostles express the desire to depart and to be with Christ (Phil. 1:23), knowing that they have "a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens" (2 Cor. 5:1).

A depiction of the life of the Saints in heaven is given in the Apocalypse. Saint John the Theologian saw around the throne of God in the heavens "four and twenty seats" and on them elders clothed in white garments and having crowns of gold on their heads (Apoc. 4:4). He saw under the heavenly altar "the souls of them that were slain for the Word of God, and for the testimony which they held" (Apoc. 6:9); and yet again he saw "a great multitude... of all nations, and kindreds, and people," standing before the Throne and before the Lamb and crying out: "Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the Throne, and unto the Lamb" (Apoc. 7:9-10).

The bright mansions of the Heavenly Home sacred Scripture calls "the city of the living God," "Mount Zion," the "Heavenly Jerusalem," "the Church of the first-born written in heaven."

And thus the great Kingdom of Christ has been opened in heaven. Into it have entered the souls of all the righteous and pious people of the Old Testament, those of whom the Apostle has said, "These all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise" (until the coming to earth of the Son of God and the general salvation), that they without us should not be made perfect, that is, attained the joy and blessedness of the Heavenly Church of Christ (Heb. 11:39-40). Into this Kingdom in the New Testament there entered the first ones who believed in Christ, the Apostles, first martyrs, confessors; and thus until the end of the world the heavenly Home will be filled ¾ the Jerusalem on high, the granary of God ¾ until it shall come to its perfect fulness.

St. Symeon the New Theologian teaches the following: "It was fitting that there should be born all who have been foreknown by God, and that the world which is above this world, the Church of the first-born, the heavenly Jerusalem, should be filled up; and then the fulness of the Body of Christ will be perfected, receiving in itself all those foreordained by God to be conformed to the image of His Son ¾ these are the sons of the light and the day. Such are all those foreordained and forewritten, and included in the number of the saved, and those who are to be joined and united to the Body of Christ; and there will no longer be lacking in Him a single member. Thus is it in truth, as the Apostle Paul reveals when he says: Till we all come in the unity of the faith . . . unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ (Eph. 4:13). When they shall be gathered together and shall comprise the full Body of Christ, then also the higher world, the heavenly Jerusalem, which is the Church of the first-born, will be filled up, and the body of the Queen of God, the Church, which is the Body of Christ God, will be revealed as entirely full and perfect" (Homily 45).

According to the teaching of Sacred Scripture, the blessedness of the souls of the righteous in heaven consists of a) the repose or rest from labors; b) nonparticipation in sorrows and sufferings (Apoc. 14:13, 7:16); c) being together with and consequently being in the closest communion with the forefathers and other saints; d) mutual communion between themselves and with thousands of angels; e) standing before the Throne of the Lamb, glorifying Him and serving Him; f) communion and reigning together with Christ; g) the joyous beholding face-to-face of God Almighty.


C. The establishment of the Church
The Lord Jesus Christ, in His conversation with His disciples before His sufferings, promised them to send the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, Who would remain with them forever — the Spirit of Truth Who would instruct them in everything and remind them of all that He Himself had spoken to them, and would inform them of the future. Appearing after the Resurrection to His disciples, the Lord granted them the grace-given power of the Holy Spirit with the words, "Receive ye the Holy Spirit: Whosesoever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whosesoever sins ye retain, they are retained" (John 20:22-23). And ten days after His Ascension, the Lord, in accordance with His promise, sent down the Holy Spirit upon the disciples on the day of Pentecost in the form of fiery tongues.

The descent into the world by the Holy Spirit was expressed, first of all, in the extraordinary gifts of the Apostles in the form of signs, healings, prophecies, the gift of tongues; and secondly, in all the grace-given powers which lead the faithful of Christ to spiritual perfection and to salvation.

In the Holy Spirit, in His Divine power, is given us "all things that pertain unto life and godliness" (2 Peter 1:3). "These grace-given gifts are in the Holy Church which the Lord founded on earth." They comprise the means of our sanctification and salvation.

[Rick of Wessex]

10. what does Christ's crucifixion mean for us?
11. what is salvation?


The Economy of Salvation (http://www.holytrinitymission.org/books/english/dogmatics_pomazansky.htm#_Toc514547769), chapter 6 of Fr. Pomazansky's book "Orthodox Dogmatic Theology". (very long to quote here)

[CyberSponge]

Hi Rick!

Are you offering that as exactly your beliefs, or just as some beliefs you know about? I'd love to hear your answers in your own words!!! :D

CS

[Rick of Wessex]

Hi Rick!

Are you offering that as exactly your beliefs

Definitely. :D

I'd love to hear your answers in your own words!!!

Well, since English is not my first language, perhaps that wouldn't be the best option. ;) That's why I prefer to quote from Orthodox authors and theologians.

In XC,
Rick

[CyberSponge]

Well, I thought that I'd give a rough sketch of some of my answers for these questions. I'm making no attempt to provide "evidence" or "backup" for my answers. I'm just going to say my current, probably flawed, viewpoints.


1. what is the nature of the soul?

I'm not actually sure. I used to think it was some sort of sentient, independed, wispy being. I also used to think that it is what we REALLY are.

2. what is the nature of the body?

A very central part of who we are. In fact, Christ's incarnation testifies to the effect that having a body is a key component of human beings. I'm not entirely sure what the original Jewish view of the human soul/body was, but I do remember that in Genesis, the soul = body + spirit (in other words, the soul isn't part of a person, but is the word to describe the body and the spirit combined). But I'm not sure if this is a mistranslation or what, but it's not clear to me that the ancient Jews thought of a person having a soul + body, but rather just a body.

3. what happens after we die (immediately, after awhile, long term)?

Not sure. I outright reject, however, any teachings which involves the soul as being who we are, and just that part of us truly mattering. I also reject teachings that are based on visions or other such things rather than a solid Apostolic foundation.

4. what do we mean by "life after death"?

I USED to think that life after death was referring to how our souls go to heaven (or hell). But then I was always puzzled by how often the resurrection was brought up in scripture. I just didn't "get" the resurrection. I was also puzzled by why Pascha was so important. If a person can have a cool wispy soul that can go anywhere, why have a body with limitations? Now I believe that "life after death" actually does, in fact, mean life (as in body+soul). The soul itself isn't alive, so that's not life after death.

5. when are we judged?

I have a different view than many Orthodox in that I don't believe in some sort of "partial" or "peticular" judgement. whenever I tried looking into it, the arguments *seemed* to be based a whole lot on speculation or philosophy, not on early church or scriptural references. Plus the whole idea just complicates matters. I believe that the final judgement is the only judgement, and in the meantime (after we die) we exist in some state known simply as hades or sheol (in which we may either be fully/partially conscious, and in which time may pass in a flash or slowly). I admit that I may be wrong, as I'm on the opposite side of the general Orthodox consensus on this one. :P

6. how are we judged?

Justly. ;) And by God at the final judgment.

7. what part do our works have in judgement?

They aren't what will save/lose us.

8. what part does our faith in Christ have in our judgement?

The key part. A necessary condition.

9. what does "faith in Christ" mean?

Faithfulness and a deep down core belief. Something that is constantly drawing us into a right relationship with God.

10. what does Christ's crucifixion mean for us?

Everything. It was through His death that we are saved.

11. what is salvation?

Being saved from death. I believe that the ancient jews feared death so much b/c for them, that the life they lived now was the only life. Notice how the rewards for living a good life was to live a long life. Other than the resurrection, there's no (IMO, clear) mention of some sort of spiritual "after life" where we keep on "living". So this was why the resurrection was so important. Once I thought in this way, I finally understood what we meant by Christ trampling down death. I remember asking a fellow Orthodox Christian once: "What's the big deal with the resurrection if our souls get to heaven without our body, anyway?". He wasn't totally sure of the answer, himself.

12. what does the "resurrection" mean?

From 1 Corinthians 14:
"17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men. "

Note that without the resurrection, we are LOST! Read 1 Cor. 14 if you want to see what really "woke me up" about this whole issue. :)

[Eusebios]

CS,
I really believe that what Rick has done here is positively the way these things should be answered, with the words of the Early Church Fathers and others skilled in Orthodox theolgy( though true theologians are those who pray).
Need I remind you of the maxim concerning "opinions" and their ubiquity?
His unworthy servant,
Eusebios.
:bow:

[CyberSponge]

CS,
I really believe that what Rick has done here is positively the way these things should be answered, with the words of the Early Church Fathers and others skilled in Orthodox theolgy( though true theologians are those who pray).
Need I remind you of the maxim concerning "opinions" and their ubiquity?
His unworthy servant,
Eusebios.
:bow:

Point taken. Although asking for someone to state a belief in their own words is different than asking for opinions. Sound reasonable? :)

[Eusebios]

Yes, except that when someone has said it with more expertise and a greater succinctness and power than I ever could, I'll let them say it for me.:)
In Xp,
Eusebios.

[CyberSponge]

Hi Rick!

I'm wondering if you, or anyone else, could explain how come many writings seem to equate "hades" with "hell". On the one hand, it seems like hades can be equated to "death", and therefore all go to this state of death (which is also a point of the article below). But then some quotes seem to imply that hades is "the bad place". ;) In fact, in some of our services, hades and hell seem to be interchangable.

CS

CS,

I'll try to answer some of these:



The Orthodox view of the afterlife
by Presbytera Irene Matta, M. Th.

Paradise was not available to Adam and Eve once they had been driven away from its Tree of Life, preventing them to continue in the body of flesh and sin. The restoration of Human Nature by the Lord Jesus heals the wound, or the "sting" of Death. St. Paul declares with joy, that, "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord," giving his spiritual children comfort with these words.

In his first epistle to the Thessalonians (4:18), St. Paul writes that they were to comfort "one another" with the knowledge that Christ has overcome Death, and that they would be once again joined with their loved ones. Sheol, or Hades, is no longer the destination of the Christian after death, since the obedience and reconciliation of Man to God through Christ. Now, Paradise (though not yet Heaven) beckons to us as it did to Adam, the angels lead us into the presence of the Lord and into our heavenly rest to await the reunion with the body. The fullness of the Heavenly reward awaits that reunion.

The Hebrew "Sheol" is not equivalent to "hell" or "gehenna," or even to the Hellenic concept of "hades," a word which the fathers appropriated with a considerably different meaning. The apostles and the holy fathers used the Greek word hades synonymously with the Hebrew Sheol. It designates a "state or condition of being," not a physical location. It also designates the place or power of death; that which Christ conquered. It was not a state or condition without hope, for even among the most ancient books of the Bible, we find the holy prophet Job referring clearly to the resurrection of the body and its reunion with the soul. He prophesies, "If a man die, shall he live again? All the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my transformation...and where is my hope now?...I know that my Redeemer liveth and that He will stand at the latter day upon the earth: and...in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself." [Job 14:14; 17:13; 19:25-26.]

Thus, Sheol or Hades was a certain darkness, figuratively or metaphorically referred to as "below the earth," describing a state of being for souls before the coming of Christ. It was, however, also a "land with promise," because the Old Testament faithful certainly hoped on the coming redemption and, as Prophet Job reveals, they connected that promised redemption with the hope of physical resurrection. Only after the Old Testament scriptures had been written was it understood that good and evil had a recompense after death, and that the soul could be aware of that coming recompense immediately after death; indeed, the soul might, by its very knowledge of the coming resurrection and judgment, endure already a certain psychological suffering for its deeds even before the resurrection.

St Gregory of Nyssa gives us an expression of the state of the soul immediately after death, saying:

"..the 'gulf' (in the Lazarus parable), which is not made by the parting of the earth, but by those decisions in this life which result in a separation into opposite characters. The man who has once chosen pleasure in this life, and has not cured his inconsiderateness by repentance, places the land of the good beyond his own reach; for he has dug against himself the yawning impassable abyss... that nothing can break through. This is the reason, I think, that the name "Abraham's bosom" is given to that good situation of the soul in which the Scripture makes the athlete of endurance repose.

For it is related of this patriarch first... that he exchanged the enjoyment of the present for the hope of the future; he was stripped of all the surroundings in which his life at first had passed, and resided among foreigners, and thus purchased by present annoyance future blessedness. As then figuratively we call a particular circular of the ocean a `bosom', so does the Scripture seem to me to express the idea of those measureless blessings above by the word 'bosom', meaning a place into which all virtuous voyagers of this life are, when they have put in from hence, brought to anchor in the waveless harbour of that bay of blessings. Meanwhile the denial of these blessings which they witness becomes in others a flame which burns the soul and causes the craving for the refreshment of one drop out of that ocean of blessings wherein the saints are affluent; which nevertheless they do not get...Surely the "hades" we have just been speaking of cannot reasonably be thought a place so named; rather we are told by Scripture about a certain unseen and immaterial condition [or, situation] in which the soul resides." [St. gregory of Nyssa - On The Soul and the Resurrection, para.54.]

St. Epiphanius, Bishop of Cyprus during the time of the Churchs battle against Arianism, uses magnificent poetic prose to tell his flock of Christ's Descent into Hades -- to those in Sheol who had hoped in the Promise of salvation through Gods Anointed. Adam hears His footsteps coming to rescue them from the hold of death and Satan, who reigned over death. With Christs coming, the gates of Hades were struck down (pictured in the Resurrection icon), and Satan, along with his demons, was routed. The holy bishop puts words of longing in Adams mouth as he hears his Saviour coming:

"Thereupon Adam turned towards all his fellow captives from ages past and said, 'I hear the sound of Someones feet advancing towards us, and if He deigns to come even to this place, we shall be freed of our bonds.. we shall be delivered from Hades! ..And the Master entered within, holding the Cross as a weapon of victory. ...[He says to Adam], 'I am thy God, Who for thy sake became thy Son, ....now I say Come Forth!, and to those in darkness, Be Enlightened!, and to those asleep, Arise! ...For I did not fashion thee to be held in Hades as a captive. ...Arise, My creation, arise, Mine image, who wast also made in My likeness!" [St. Epiphanius Homily on the Resurrection tran. Holy Transfiguration Monastery, Brookline, MA.]

In this dramatic sermon, first preached at the Vigil of the Resurrection, the saint teaches us through Christs own words, about the recapitulation of Adams disobedience by Christs obedience, and the restoration of Adams nature (and our own), by His passion, death, and victory over death:

In a garden I was crucified. Behold upon My countenance the spittings which I received for thy sake so as to restore to thee the ancient in-breathing [of the Spirit]. ...Behold upon My back the scourgings which I accepted so as to scatter the burden of thy sins. ...Behold My hands, which unto good were nailed to the tree [of the Cross] for thee, who unto evil didst stretch forth thy hand to the tree [to sin]. ...I accepted the reed, so as to undersign [the writ of] freedom for the race of men. I slept upon the Cross, and by a blade was pierced in the side for thee, from whose side whilst thou wast sleeping in Paradise Eve was brought forth. ....My sleep shall wrest thee from the sleep of Hades; ...The bridal chamber is made ready, the delicacies are prepared, the eternal tabernacles and abodes are waiting, the treasuries of good things are thrown open, the Kingdom of Heaven has been prepared before the ages... [St. Epiphanius Homily on the Resurrection tran. Holy Transfiguration Monastery, Brookline, MA.]


St. Ambrose of Milan makes clear the condition of the soul and body after death, and the unity of the two, saying:

And this is the course and ground of justice, that since the actions of body and soul are common to both (for what the soul has conceived, the body has carried out), each should come into judgment...for it would seem almost inconsistent that...the mind guilty of a fault shared by another should be subjected to penalty, and the flesh, the author of the evil, should enjoy rest: and that that alone should suffer which had not sinned alone, or should attain to glory not having fought alone, with the help of grace.

St. Irenaeus of Lyons is like-minded when he says:
For it is just that in the very same condition in which they (the body and the soul) toiled or were afflicted, being proved in every way by suffering, they should receive the reward of their suffering...

St Titus of Bostra, rebuking the Manicheans, confirms this thought in words quoted by St John the Damascene:
For the soul cannot enjoy anything, or possess, or do anything, or suffer, except it be together with the body, being the same as it was created in the beginning, and thus it enjoys that which is proper to it. This state is lost in death through the disobedience of Adam, and again through the obedience of the one Christ, through hope it receives (in the resurrection) again the state of being a person.

The soul, nevertheless, since it possesses man's intellectual faculties, is not comatose or ignorant of its fate. St. Irenaeus gives us a description of the state of humanity at death, before the resurrection joins the body to the soul, "[Souls after being parted from the body at death] possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognized, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, ....each class [of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the [Last] judgment." [That is, either they go to Abraham's Bosom or to Hades]

St Justin Martyr explains this further, "The souls of the pious remain in a better place [Abraham's Bosom], while those of the unjust and wicked are in a worse place [Hades], waiting for the time of judgment."

Thus, the Church waits for the Lord of Glory to complete His work of redemption in us, to bring together body and soul, separated by death because of sin. St John's Apocalypse speaks to us who wait:

And the Spirit and the Bride say, 'Come!' And let him who hears say, 'Come!' And let him who thirsts...take water freely." (Rev.22:17)

[Suzannah]

I'm going to attempt answers to your questions. Lord, have mercy upon me a sinner:

1. what is the nature of the soul?
We were created to take the place of those who fell from heaven. Our souls are created with this aim at the forefront of our being. This is what the soul is.
2. what is the nature of the body?
It is one vehicle toward reunion with God, as we are perfected (theosis) into greater reunion with God.

3. what happens after we die (immediately, after awhile, long term)?
immediately, we condemn ourselves, knowing how far short of the mark we have fallen. After awhile, we have a foretaste: heaven or hell. Long term: Heaven or hell.

4. what do we mean by "life after death"?
We mean that original state for which we were destined and toward which we strive in this life. While in the body, we should attempt to return to the state of Adam (or Eve) and repent as they had NOT done, to re-do our own history.
5. when are we judged?
Immediately after death and then at the Last Judgement.

6. how are we judged?
By Christ and through our knowledge of Christ. If knowledge is absent, we are "innocent". If we have knowledge of Christ's work on our behalf we are judged according to how we have judged others, how we have dealt with our love for Him and His sacrifice.
7. what part do our works have in judgement?
Our works are the depth of our faith. If we really believe that Christ died for us, how much we are willing to suffer and to sacrifice in our lives, that others might also be saved!
8. what part does our faith in Christ have in our judgement?
Absolute faith in Christ means to take up our Cross and follow Him in obedience. Our measure of obedience is the determining factor. Those who have never heard, are those who rest in His mercy. But this is not me! I am the unworthy sinner, because I do "know", I do have responsibility to that knowledge.


9. what does "faith in Christ" mean?
We must have a living salvation. A living salvation is a life that speaks Christ, thinks Christ, feels Christ, hears Christ, tastes Christ, touches Christ, offers Christ, daily.

10. what does Christ's crucifixion mean for us?
It means that Christ destroyed death but it also means obedience to Him.

11. what is salvation?
See number 9.
12. what does the "resurrection" mean?
We will literally rise from the dead. The pagan looks for signs in the sky, in the everyday manner of living, for omens in the tea leaves. We look for something unheard of, unimaginable, miraculous, beyond all comprehension. It means we are hopeful of the fulfillment of Promise. Hope is the expectation of every Christian.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Hi Rick!

I'm wondering if you, or anyone else, could explain how come many writings seem to equate "hades" with "hell". On the one hand, it seems like hades can be equated to "death", and therefore all go to this state of death (which is also a point of the article below). But then some quotes seem to imply that hades is "the bad place". ;) In fact, in some of our services, hades and hell seem to be interchangable.

CS
It's my understanding (which may or may not be 100% correct) that equating hell with hades is the result of a common translation error. Hell = Gehenna (lake of fire), and Sheol (grave) = Hades. This is my understanding, anyway. I don't know if perhaps these distincitons are only made in the LXX? I'm speculating there because most protestants seem to know nothing about how these terms are defined. Perhaps they are not well defined in the Masoretic (msp?) texts?

[Rick of Wessex]

Tracy,

You're 100% correct. :thumbsup:

In XC,
Rick

[CyberSponge]

It's my understanding (which may or may not be 100% correct) that equating hell with hades is the result of a common translation error. Hell = Gehenna (lake of fire), and Sheol (grave) = Hades. This is my understanding, anyway. I don't know if perhaps these distincitons are only made in the LXX? I'm speculating there because most protestants seem to know nothing about how these terms are defined. Perhaps they are not well defined in the Masoretic (msp?) texts?
That was my understanding, too (I think that you, Rick, and myself have read some of the same materials online ;) )

But then my follow-up question is how come some Orthodox liturgical texts seem to get them mixed up, too? I have noticed, though, that it seems more frequent in the faux elizabethan English translations I hear in the OCA. When I attend Greek services, they don't really use the word "Hell" inappropriately, it seems. Anyone have any more info about this???

thanks!

[ExOrienteLux]

This looks to be an interesting discussion, to say the least.

-EDIT-
Rest deleted, because it was brought to my attention that the OP said

I have no intention of criticizing any opinions laid out in this thread, and I hope that all others are also charitable. I think this post overstepped this bound. If it did, I ask forgiveness from any it offended.

+IC XC NIKA+
Josh.

[Reader Nilus]

I used want answers to those type of questions but as I have gotten older and have been Orthodox for awhile now, those questions do not mean much to me anymore. The only issue that I need to be concerned with is how to live a life of love and mercy. To be busy about prayer which I am not, and that to me is key. Prayer and then live.
Jeff the Finn

[CyberSponge]

I used want answers to those type of questions but as I have gotten older and have been Orthodox for awhile now, those questions do not mean much to me anymore. The only issue that I need to be concerned with is how to live a life of love and mercy. To be busy about prayer which I am not, and that to me is key. Prayer and then live.
Jeff the Finn
I've been Orthodox all my life (all 23 years of it ;) ) and I'm very interested in these questions!!! :)

[Marjorie]

It's my understanding (which may or may not be 100% correct) that equating hell with hades is the result of a common translation error. Hell = Gehenna (lake of fire), and Sheol (grave) = Hades. This is my understanding, anyway. I don't know if perhaps these distincitons are only made in the LXX? I'm speculating there because most protestants seem to know nothing about how these terms are defined. Perhaps they are not well defined in the Masoretic (msp?) texts?As I understand it, in the Masoretic OT the word used for "hell" is always sheol (grave), which is equivalent to the use of hades in the NT. Gehenna isn't used in the OT even though it has a Hebrew origin-- the Valley (gai) of ben-Hinnom. gai-hinnom, gai-henna, gehenna... you get it. The Valley of ben-Hinnom was the place where children were sacrificed to Moloch in flames. In Jeremiah 19:6 God calls it "the valley of slaughter." This became a symbol of a place of those who had set aside God for idolatry and abominations. There are various ideas about a gehenna (as a place of God's punishment) in late pre-Christian Judaism.

Anyway, that was a little off-topic. I don't know why Protestants don't know about the distinction, but the distinction is generally only made in the New Testament Greek, between hades, gehenna, and also tartarus which is used once in reference to a place of punishment for fallen angels.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[CyberSponge]

As I understand it, in the Masoretic OT the word used for "hell" is always sheol (grave), which is equivalent to the use of hades in the NT. Gehenna isn't used in the OT even though it has a Hebrew origin-- the Valley (gai) of ben-Hinnom. gai-hinnom, gai-henna, gehenna... you get it. The Valley of ben-Hinnom was the place where children were sacrificed to Moloch in flames. In Jeremiah 19:6 God calls it "the valley of slaughter." This became a symbol of a place of those who had set aside God for idolatry and abominations. There are various ideas about a gehenna (as a place of God's punishment) in late pre-Christian Judaism.

Anyway, that was a little off-topic. I don't know why Protestants don't know about the distinction, but the distinction is generally only made in the New Testament Greek, between hades, gehenna, and also tartarus which is used once in reference to a place of punishment for fallen angels.

In IC XC,
Marjorie
KJV. That's why. Plus my totally opinionated opinion is that it was one of those things inherited from the Catholic Church. I've found many protestants who are "breaking" away from the immediate-heaven-or-hell doctrine that they inherited (IMO) from the Catholic Church, but then many of them then exclude any possibility of consciousness after we die (which is a problem with asking saints to intercede), but until the resurrection. I think this idea is called "soul sleep".

[plmarquette]

How do the Greek and Russian Orthodox churches differ from
their Roman Catholic brothers .... ?

Never quite understood the difference between the Eastern and Western
Churches ...

[Marjorie]

How do the Greek and Russian Orthodox churches differ from
their Roman Catholic brothers .... ?

Never quite understood the difference between the Eastern and Western
Churches ...This article gives a good, basic overview of the differences:

http://www.forumishqiptar.com/archive/index.php/t-33952.html

In IC XC,
Marjorie