Do Jews and Christians worship the same God?

[Mary_Magdalene]

Someone told me that Jews do not worship the same God as Christians. That once they rejected Christ and the Savior, they rejected the true God.

Anyone's thoughts on this? I had said to this person that the God of Abraham is the same God as the Body of Christ today. Then I was told that yes, it was but if you do not accept Christ as God's Son, you are rejecting God. I know the scriptures say something along those lines, but I am having trouble understanding all this. I mean, God has not changed...Jews have not changed their God....they might not be saved, but arent they still worshipping our God??

Thanks for any insight...

[P_G]

Dear one

Let me take a stab at this

The Jews still worship the G-d of Issac, Jacob and Abraham. The same G-d that made all things the same G-d that made the flood and saved Noah from it and the very same G-d called YHVH who gave Moses the law in the desert.

They are still his chosen people

They have however rejected Jesus (Y'shuah) as the messiah and in doing so they have rejected his salvation and atoning work on the cross at calvary. What you have been taught is called "replacement theology" it is a heresy. Replacement theology says that because the Jews have rejected Jesus that G-d replaced the Jew with the Gentile as the chosen race. And that is simply not true. Jesus came first for the Jew and then for the Gentile.

RO 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

Like anyone else the Jew who does not accept Jesus as messiah and Lord will stand judgement for his sins under the law. (10 commandments) And we know what the bible says:

RO 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,


6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

So yes they worship the same G-d but are badly in need of a savior as are we all.


Love

Pastor George :wave:

[LynneClomina]

it is my belief (please nobody flame me for this) that once they rejected Jesus as the messiah, they apostosized from the true faith, which is the one of followint the one true God, the God of abraham. they are worshipping THEIR IDEA of God, the way He expressed Himself in the Old Covanent. but He made a New Covanent, and they rejected that. so they stepped out of the faith. they rejected the true God because they didnt like the "developements" so to speak in how He revealed Himself to us, and in His New Covanent with us, and are worshipping a shadow of Him. they are worshipping the version of God that suits them, not God as He really IS. and thus they would always deny this apostasy, but to leave God is to be apostate. so yes, they did change their God/god - they rejected the one true God and worship their IDEA of Him. pretty much...... idolatry.

those are my beliefs and opinion, and ppl can recieve them or reject them. just dont flame me on them. and i kinda have to say that to be politically correct.

[Plan 9]

Jews and Christians worship the same God.

[Lotar]

it is my belief (please nobody flame me for this) that once they rejected Jesus as the messiah, they apostosized from the true faith, which is the one of followint the one true God, the God of abraham. they are worshipping THEIR IDEA of God, the way He expressed Himself in the Old Covanent. but He made a New Covanent, and they rejected that. so they stepped out of the faith. they rejected the true God because they didnt like the "developements" so to speak in how He revealed Himself to us, and in His New Covanent with us, and are worshipping a shadow of Him. they are worshipping the version of God that suits them, not God as He really IS. and thus they would always deny this apostasy, but to leave God is to be apostate. so yes, they did change their God/god - they rejected the one true God and worship their IDEA of Him. pretty much...... idolatry.

those are my beliefs and opinion, and ppl can recieve them or reject them. just dont flame me on them. and i kinda have to say that to be politically correct.
I agree. "No one can come to the Father except through me." You reject Christ, you reject God.

[LynneClomina]

What you have been taught is called "replacement theology" it is a heresy. Replacement theology says that because the Jews have rejected Jesus that G-d replaced the Jew with the Gentile as the chosen race. And that is simply not true. Jesus came first for the Jew and then for the Gentile.
[/font][/font][/font][/font]

note: i am discussing only.

i think it's not necesarily replacement theology - i dont believe Gentiles "replaced" Jews as the chosen ppl. i believe that anyone who believes is a chosen one, a seed of abraham. that in no way leaves the jews out of it in the way that the gentiles were left out of it before Christ. it's open to all now.

another thought.... Jesus is God, so if they do not worship Jesus, do then then also NOT worship God? the bible is pretty clear that those who do not worship Jesus are those who serve their father, the father of lies?

John 8:38-45
38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father." 39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father." Then they said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father--God." 42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.

[P_G]

First I think we have to take a look at something which most Christian churchs don't want to admit to and that is that the Old Covenant was not thrown out. It was fufilled not abolished.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Now near ways as I can tell from looking out my window as of 2:15 PM eastern time the world had not ended and thus the law has not passed away and is awaiting to be completely fufilled.

To say that the Jew worships his own "idea" of God is to say that the Old Testement (Torah and Tannach) was the idea of men. And of course we know that is just not true at all. The bible Jesus knew and taught from was the same Bible that the Jews have today.

The trouble was and is and always will be that while they dearly love God the SAME God that we love they are seperated from him. Why? Because of sin. They are in perhaps a worse place than a pagan who knows nothing of God.

It's almost like a person sick with pneumonia knowing that an antibiotic will heal him continuing to take mustard plaster and chicken soup. One path leads to life one to death. The mere knowledge and admiration of God does not save. The law does not save. Only Jesus saves.

But to say that they do not know God or that the God they pray to and worship is "different" from ours is wholey untrue.

The good news is that in record numbers Jews ARE comming to Christ!
And the ones that have come bring with them much knowledge about living
a holy and righteous life. This is something we forget and rarely teach in Christian circles. But we should!


Blessings

PG :wave:

[Reformationist]

Someone told me that Jews do not worship the same God as Christians. That once they rejected Christ and the Savior, they rejected the true God.

Anyone's thoughts on this?

Let's look at this in more relatable way. If I said, "Hey, I know Godschosengirl. Sure, she posts on Christian Forums," would that sound like I was talking about you? Probably. What if I said, "I also happen to know that she's 114 years old and worships the devil." Does that sound like the same you? Look, just because the Jews claim fealty to a the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob does not mean that they worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were fully aware of the providence of God in delivering a Savior through their line of descent. That Savior is Jesus. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob worshipped the God who would send His Son, Jesus, to atone for the sins of His flock. That is NOT the God the Jews worship. This is not to say that there will not be a widespread conversion of Jews to the worship of Christ. It just means that unless one worships the God of the ENTIRE Bible, one worships a different god.

God bless

[Job24]

they worship the same God but they dont think that Jesus was the true Christ. they believe that he was a prophet or something and that is why they conspired to have him killed. Because Jesus claimed to be the true son of God and the Jewish elders did not like that. he was committing harrasy and they were threatened by him.

[Reformationist]

they worship the same God but they dont think that Jesus was the true Christ.

Then they don't worship the same God. Why is this so hard to understand? The TRUE God is God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. If that's not the God someone worships then they don't worship the God that Christians do. We need not gloss it over.

God bless

[seebs]

If we don't worship the God they do, we have serious problems, because that's the one who sent Jesus.

[Oblio]

If we don't worship the God they do, we have serious problems, because that's the one who sent Jesus.


Of course we worship the Holy Trinity, they do not. Seems there is a quandry here :)

[Reformationist]

Of course we worship the Holy Trinity, they do not. Seems there is a quandry here :)

Sounds like a different god to me. Not so much of a quandry. :)

[seebs]

Of course we worship the Holy Trinity, they do not. Seems there is a quandry here :)

I think this comes to the core of the distinction between identity and claims about.

If I talk about "Oblio, the CF poster who is a Baptist", I am obviously confused. The question is, do I mean you - but I have wrong beliefs about you - or do I mean someone else?

In this particular case, we have VERY strong reason to believe that we are dealing with competing claims about the nature of God, but not distinct entities.

There is no other Creator of all things seen and unseen. Abraham made a covenant with only one God. If we are worshipping that God, and they are too, then we are disagreeing about His qualities, but not about which entity we are describing. That we believe their description to be incomplete doesn't mean they're not talking about the same entity.

Consider; we can reasonably say that I know Oblio, the CF poster who is an Orthodox Christian. However, I would not be able to affirm any description such as "Oblio, whose name is Jim" or "Oblio, whose name is Bob", or "Oblio, who has three children". I don't know these things about you. I might even refuse to believe them if I were told truly how many children you have, or what you do for a living. But I'm still talking about you, even if I do not know you fully.

[Lotar]

Jesus is God, just as the Father and the Holy Spirit is God. It is impossible to say you worship God and say Jesus is not God at the same time. You either worship the entire Trinity or none of it.

[Mary_Magdalene]

Let's look at this in more relatable way. If I said, "Hey, I know Godschosengirl. Sure, she posts on Christian Forums," would that sound like I was talking about you? Probably. What if I said, "I also happen to know that she's 114 years old and worships the devil." Does that sound like the same you? Look, just because the Jews claim fealty to a the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob does not mean that they worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were fully aware of the providence of God in delivering a Savior through their line of descent. That Savior is Jesus. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob worshipped the God who would send His Son, Jesus, to atone for the sins of His flock. That is NOT the God the Jews worship. This is not to say that there will not be a widespread conversion of Jews to the worship of Christ. It just means that unless one worships the God of the ENTIRE Bible, one worships a different god.


That really explained it to me. I get it now. Thanks! :)

[seebs]

Jesus is God, just as the Father and the Holy Spirit is God. It is impossible to say you worship God and say Jesus is not God at the same time. You either worship the entire Trinity or none of it.

So... Abraham didn't worship God? Moses? Any random Rabbi in 220BC?

I don't see any basis for claiming that you must fully understand God to worship him, but failing to recognize Jesus as God strikes me as a failure of understanding.

[Lotar]

It is one thing to not know of one of God's attributes, it is an entirely different thing to reject one of His attributes. Before Christ came, no one knew of the Trinity, they neither accepted or rejected it. They worshipped the true God because they accepted what had been given to them.

[Oblio]

In this particular case, we have VERY strong reason to believe that we are dealing with competing claims about the nature of God, but not distinct entities.

There is no other Creator of all things seen and unseen. Abraham made a covenant with only one God. If we are worshipping that God, and they are too, then we are disagreeing about His qualities, but not about which entity we are describing.


The Holy Trinity is Three Persons, not a way of describing the nature of God.
Abraham most certainly worshiped the Holy Trinity, c.f. Gen 18

There is not a monotheistic God in the OT, and at a later time a Triune God, The Holy Trinity has ever existed, and always will.

[Sephania]

note: i am discussing only.

i think it's not necesarily replacement theology - i dont believe Gentiles "replaced" Jews as the chosen ppl. i believe that anyone who believes is a chosen one, a seed of abraham. that in no way leaves the jews out of it in the way that the gentiles were left out of it before Christ. it's open to all now.
No Gentiles were "left out" as you put it, before Jesus appeared on earth, what kind of loving God would that be? Go and read Exodus.


another thought.... Jesus is God, so if they do not worship Jesus, do then then also NOT worship God? the bible is pretty clear that those who do not worship Jesus are those who serve their father, the father of lies?
You should be real careful of where this question may lead.

Let me ask you:

Who did Abraham make dinner for?
Who showed him the lamb caught in a THORN bush?
Who was that rock of living waters in the desert?
When Jesus talked of him being in the Torah ( Moses) and the Prophets what did you think he meant?
If Jesus is foretold in all these books do you believe the Jews didn't believe in all that?
God calls himself in many books Salvation, do you think that the Jews didn't believe that?



John 8:38-45
38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father." 39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father." Then they said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father--God." 42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. [/QUOTE]
By any chance are you a fan of Shepherd's Chapel?

[Sephania]

Then they don't worship the same God. Why is this so hard to understand? The TRUE God is God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. If that's not the God someone worships then they don't worship the God that Christians do. We need not gloss it over.

God bless
Do you think that those last two only came into being when Jesus came to earth 2000 years ago?

[simchat_torah]

The god that the Jews worship is the law.

Someone who doesn't have a clue what Judaism is, should not be making authoritative claims.

Jews DO NOT worship the law.

This quote makes me sick. Isn't there enough misunderstanding spread around already?

oy vey.

[Hix]

Sounds like a different god to me. Not so much of a quandry. :)


ah yes, and just where is the scripture to back up this comment? Are you aware sir of the fact that particular comment just created a contradiction as long as your arm with what is said in the OT? So let me ask everyone here, do you follow the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? If the answer is yes theres no ifs ands and buts about it, the Jews do the same thing to.

Oh yeah, and Jesus was born a Jew, lived a Jew, prayed like a Jew, performed the law like a Jew and is returning a Jew. Deal with it.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[Sephania]

The god that the Jews worship is the law. They do not worship God. Thus, they will be judged by the law that they worship and will be found wanting. That is, of course, unless the Lord brings them out of the darkness.

God bless
Romans 11 addresses this.

[Sephania]

The Holy Trinity is Three Persons, not a way of describing the nature of God.
Abraham most certainly worshiped the Holy Trinity, c.f. Gen 18

There is not a monotheistic God in the OT, and at a later time a Triune God, The Holy Trinity has ever existed, and always will.
How do you see that in light of Deut 6:4?

[simchat_torah]

There is not a monotheistic God...
Unfortunatley, anyone who says this is walking in paganism.

Deut. 6 makes this evidently clear. I'm not arguing any particular points, merely stating that G-d is one... a monotheistic deity.

to say otherwise is err.

shalom,
yafet

[P_G]

Who was wrestling with Jacob?

Gen 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
Gen 32:25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
Gen 32:26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.


Who did Moses see?

Exo 33:17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
Exo 33:18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.

And who was in the fire?

Dan 3:24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.
Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

And please please tell me who it was that Jesus was praying to?

Joh 11:41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
Joh 11:42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

Mat 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Now tell me if the Messiah - Y'shua was a Jew and was talking or praying to the father who he full acknowledged was and is G-d El'ohim. And the general theology of the Jews has not changed since then. What God are the Jews beleiving in?

Blessings

PG :wave:

[Reformationist]

Do you think that those last two only came into being when Jesus came to earth 2000 years ago?

What are you talking about? They are all eternal. If someone worships a monotheistic idea of God as being ONLY the Father then they don't worship the God that Christians do. You can't have it both ways. The God of the Christians is a Trinity. It ALWAYS has been. As I said, there's no need to gloss it over. They wouldn't claim to worship the same God we do. Why must you?

[Reformationist]

Someone who doesn't have a clue what Judaism is, should not be making authoritative claims.

Jews DO NOT worship the law.

This quote makes me sick. Isn't there enough misunderstanding spread around already?

oy vey.

The Bible is VERY clear about the difference between those who feel they are justified by the law, the Jews, and those who look to the mercy of God through the work of Jesus as their salvation. You're not even Jewish so why do you feel the need to defend their denial of Christ? The bottom line is that they deny Christ. Is that the God you worship or not?

[seebs]

Not to be picky, but Christianity is firmly monotheistic. "We believe in one God". The trinity is an explanation of part of God's nature, but not everyone understands it or accepts it. Failing to accept the trinity may make you mistaken, but it does not mean that there's some non-trinitarian creator of all things that you are mistakenly worshipping. There's only one creator of all things.

[Oblio]

Unfortunatley, anyone who says this is walking in paganism.


ST,

Are you calling me a pagan for worshiping The Holy Trinity ?

[Reformationist]

So let me ask everyone here, do you follow the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?

Did the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob include the Son?

If the answer is yes theres no ifs ands and buts about it, the Jews do the same thing to.

If the answer is yes, there's no ifs, ands or buts about it. They don't worship the same God as the Christians.

Oh yeah, and Jesus was born a Jew, lived a Jew, prayed like a Jew, performed the law like a Jew and is returning a Jew. Deal with it.

Jesus performed the cerimonial laws, NOT BECAUSE THEY ADDED OR WERE THE CATALYST FOR HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, but because that was the law. Christians are not bound by the curse of the law because our salvation is wrought by the blood of Christ. Deal with it. You're not a Jew either so what's the point of defending those who deny Christ as Savior?

[LynneClomina]

First I think we have to take a look at something which most Christian churchs don't want to admit to and that is that the Old Covenant was not thrown out. It was fufilled not abolished.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Now near ways as I can tell from looking out my window as of 2:15 PM eastern time the world had not ended and thus the law has not passed away and is awaiting to be completely fufilled.

To say that the Jew worships his own "idea" of God is to say that the Old Testement (Torah and Tannach) was the idea of men. And of course we know that is just not true at all. The bible Jesus knew and taught from was the same Bible that the Jews have today.

The trouble was and is and always will be that while they dearly love God the SAME God that we love they are seperated from him. Why? Because of sin. They are in perhaps a worse place than a pagan who knows nothing of God.

It's almost like a person sick with pneumonia knowing that an antibiotic will heal him continuing to take mustard plaster and chicken soup. One path leads to life one to death. The mere knowledge and admiration of God does not save. The law does not save. Only Jesus saves.

But to say that they do not know God or that the God they pray to and worship is "different" from ours is wholey untrue.

The good news is that in record numbers Jews ARE comming to Christ!
And the ones that have come bring with them much knowledge about living
a holy and righteous life. This is something we forget and rarely teach in Christian circles. But we should!


Blessings

PG :wave:


when i said their own "idea" i didnt mean to say that the OT God what thought up by men... i meant to say that their idea of God NOW is the PARTLY ReVEALED God of the OT - and God is no longer now PARTLY revealed, He is MUCH MORE revealed. and they reject that greater revelation of who He really is, and thus reject where He wants to take them, and thus reject HIM.

and yeah, i pretty much believe that the Old Covanent was fulfilled - not abolished, but the terms met, and no longer used, as a NEW Covanent was written up. not destroyed without the covanent being met. it was met, fulfilled, completed, and thus no longer binding.

but that's just my opinion. i'm allowed that right??? :wave:

[LynneClomina]

The good news is that in record numbers Jews ARE comming to Christ!
And the ones that have come bring with them much knowledge about living
a holy and righteous life. This is something we forget and rarely teach in Christian circles. But we should!


Blessings

PG :wave:
[/font][/font]

yeah, there are record numbers of africans and mexicans and lithuanians and chinese and jewish and tibetans etc. coming to christ. there are people of all the nations coming to Christ. there is now no Jew/Gentile differentiation, according to the bible. they are ppl who find Christ. all of them. none of them more "special" then another.

but again. that is my personal conviction. i share it for sake of discussion, not debate, y'all.

blessings :hug:

[Plan 9]

ah yes, and just where is the scripture to back up this comment? Are you aware sir of the fact that particular comment just created a contradiction as long as your arm with what is said in the OT? So let me ask everyone here, do you follow the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? If the answer is yes theres no ifs ands and buts about it, the Jews do the same thing to.

Oh yeah, and Jesus was born a Jew, lived a Jew, prayed like a Jew, performed the law like a Jew and is returning a Jew. Deal with it.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

Hix, if we throw out the Torah, what's left? The four Gospels would have to go, too. In the Gospels, Jeshua quotes from constantly from the Torah, always in affirmation of the G-d of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.
This is also confirmed repeatedly in the Letter to the Hebrews.

[LynneClomina]

they worship the same God but they dont think that Jesus was the true Christ. they believe that he was a prophet or something and that is why they conspired to have him killed. Because Jesus claimed to be the true son of God and the Jewish elders did not like that. he was committing harrasy and they were threatened by him.

hmm, is Jesus God or is He not? do they worship Him? if they dont, then doesnt that mean they do not worship the one true God?

[LynneClomina]

If we don't worship the God they do, we have serious problems, because that's the one who sent Jesus.

we worship the God who sent Jesus, yes, and we worship the God they USED to believe in, but once they rejected God the Son, they rejected God the Father as well. They are THE one true God.

[Oblio]

Christ makes it quite clear that He is the ever existent I AM, for which the leaders of the Jews wanted to kill Him because it was blasphemy to their ears.

[LynneClomina]

I think this comes to the core of the distinction between identity and claims about.

If I talk about "Oblio, the CF poster who is a Baptist", I am obviously confused. The question is, do I mean you - but I have wrong beliefs about you - or do I mean someone else?

In this particular case, we have VERY strong reason to believe that we are dealing with competing claims about the nature of God, but not distinct entities.

There is no other Creator of all things seen and unseen. Abraham made a covenant with only one God. If we are worshipping that God, and they are too, then we are disagreeing about His qualities, but not about which entity we are describing. That we believe their description to be incomplete doesn't mean they're not talking about the same entity.

Consider; we can reasonably say that I know Oblio, the CF poster who is an Orthodox Christian. However, I would not be able to affirm any description such as "Oblio, whose name is Jim" or "Oblio, whose name is Bob", or "Oblio, who has three children". I don't know these things about you. I might even refuse to believe them if I were told truly how many children you have, or what you do for a living. But I'm still talking about you, even if I do not know you fully.

ok, so suppose Oblio told us his name was Randalph. and he asked us to call him by that name from now on. and we refused to, and said, nah, i'm gonna disregard this new way in which he revealed himself to me and go back to just calling him Oblio, because there is NO WAY that Randalph is Oblio, even though Oblio says he IS Randalph. so, then am i friends with the true Oblio, or only a version of him, the version i want to see and not accepting the real version?

[Reformationist]

hmm, is Jesus God or is He not? do they worship Him? if they dont, then doesnt that mean they do not worship the one true God?

Now you got it.

[LynneClomina]

No Gentiles were "left out" as you put it, before Jesus appeared on earth, what kind of loving God would that be? Go and read Exodus. were not gentiles referred to as the dogs under the table getting scraps? that was definately not feasting at the table.

You should be real careful of where this question may lead.

Let me ask you:

Who did Abraham make dinner for?
Who showed him the lamb caught in a THORN bush?
Who was that rock of living waters in the desert?
When Jesus talked of him being in the Torah ( Moses) and the Prophets what did you think he meant?
If Jesus is foretold in all these books do you believe the Jews didn't believe in all that?
God calls himself in many books Salvation, do you think that the Jews didn't believe that?
i do not understand your point.... explain?


John 8:38-45
38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father." 39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father." Then they said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father--God." 42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.
By any chance are you a fan of Shepherd's Chapel?
what is shepherd's Chapel? never heard of it. what is wrong with the scripture i quoted???????

[Hix]

Did the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob include the Son?

No it didnt. G-d doesnt have a form.



If the answer is yes, there's no ifs, ands or buts about it. They don't worship the same God as the Christians.

Thankfully among christians your belief is a small minority.



Jesus performed the cerimonial laws, NOT BECAUSE THEY ADDED OR WERE THE CATALYST FOR HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, but because that was the law. Christians are not bound by the curse of the law because our salvation is wrought by the blood of Christ. Deal with it. You're not a Jew either so what's the point of defending those who deny Christ as Savior?

Excuse me but I AM a Jew, and Il thank you not to make such judgements about my people. Im sure you would be unwilling to listen to the fact that Jesus taught the Torah. The Jews are G-ds people eternally, which is why Jeremiah says that in comming days there will be goyim comming up to the Jew and grabbing hold of his Tallit (which Jesus wore) and saying "take us with you as we know G-d is with you". Do you really believe that a loving and personal G-d would turn away those who follow the law he told them to follow eternally? They live to make HIM happy, and you are saying he will throw them to hell? If so then you do worship a different diety, one of hate.

Oh and take a look at my sig, his covenant with the Jewish people is ETERNAL. How about that?


Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[LynneClomina]

Do you think that those last two only came into being when Jesus came to earth 2000 years ago?

no, they were always there. but at the time of Christ and since, (most of them) have rejected the revelation of Christ. the Jews of the OT accepted Him on faith, but once He was revealed they decided to reject him. they left him.

abraham issac and jacob worshipped God the Father, God the Son (by faith), and God the Holy Spirit (by faith, i guess). but any who rejected the revelation of WHO God the Son was has since left the faith of abraham, issac, and jacob.

[Reformationist]

Excuse me but I AM a Jew, and Il thank you not to make such judgements about my people.

Thanks for clearing that up. I'll promptly be reporting your post and all others in this thread that violate the forum rule posted in the first thread of the P/R/E forum:

Non-Protestant members (eg. Catholic members) can only post fellowship posts here or posts to ask a question regarding Protestant or Evangelical doctrine. Once the question is answered, there shall be no debate over the answer in this forum by the Non-Protestant. Any debate posts by Non-Protestants will be deleted or moved to the Interdenominational Doctrine Debate forum. In other words, only Protestant members can debate here.

God bless

[Oblio]

God the Holy Spirit (by faith, i guess)


The Holy Spirit spoke by the Prophets and is the Giver of Life (c.f. the Nicean/Constantinopolitan Creed ;) )

[LynneClomina]

Not to be picky, but Christianity is firmly monotheistic. "We believe in one God". The trinity is an explanation of part of God's nature, but not everyone understands it or accepts it. Failing to accept the trinity may make you mistaken, but it does not mean that there's some non-trinitarian creator of all things that you are mistakenly worshipping. There's only one creator of all things.
i believe that we have ONE God in THREE persons. ONE BEING, THREE distinct, eternal, and co-existing and co-operating (ie. all at once, not in cycles or modes) SPIRITUAL PERSONALITIES. i dont find that hard to understand at all.

[LynneClomina]

:wave: Now you got it.
yep, i always did. :D Jesus Rocks!

[Hix]

Thanks for clearing that up. I'll promptly be reporting your post and all others in this thread that violate the forum rule posted in the first thread of the P/R/E forum:

Non-Protestant members (eg. Catholic members) can only post fellowship posts here or posts to ask a question regarding Protestant or Evangelical doctrine. Once the question is answered, there shall be no debate over the answer in this forum by the Non-Protestant. Any debate posts by Non-Protestants will be deleted or moved to the Interdenominational Doctrine Debate forum. In other words, only Protestant members can debate here.

God bless


Oh good :)

"I shall bless those who bless you and curseth those who curse you"

[Blindfaith]

***MODERATION***

I suggest everyone takes a deep breath, as well as a step back.

When someone's faith is being attacked, I understand the desire to defend it.

Chill out before I close this thread. Thanks. :)

[seebs]

hmm, is Jesus God or is He not? do they worship Him? if they dont, then doesnt that mean they do not worship the one true God?

Let's put it another way.

Is YHVH the one true God or not? If you don't specifically use that name when you pray, does that mean you're not praying to Him? What about if you're a Chinese Christian, and you pray to a series of syllables that most Americans can't pronounce, but you mean the same entity?

If Jesus is God, then anyone who prays to God must be praying to Jesus. Or are you saying there are other Gods they could be praying to? How many entities created all things seen and unseen, anyway?

[Oblio]

Not to be picky, but Christianity is firmly monotheistic. "We believe in one God".


You forgot the "The Father Amighty ...and in one Lord Jesus Christ ... and in The Holy Spirit ..." parts of the N/C Creed.

[ShirChadash]

re: Did the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob include the Son?

No it didnt. G-d doesnt have a form. and yet, in one sense, yes it did as well -- because...

Yeshua (G-d's salvation) was the WORD of G-D, the MEMRA. It was upon the Word of G-d that Abraham believed. Always and forever, no one has ever come to the Father but through Yeshua (His Salvation, His WORD, His Memra), by the power of the Spirit of G-d. I have a thread in the MJ forum touching on this just now, called "Yeshua gave us Judaism".

http://www.christianforums.com/t103662

It may be of use to some of you in your discussing on this thread.

Shalom.

[LynneClomina]

Thankfully among christians your belief is a small minority.


hmm, i think its UNFORTUNATE that most "gentile" christians still see them selves as lesser than the Jews in God's eyes. the bible clearly states that there is now NO distiction in God's eyes between Jew and Gentile. it's strange to me that christians can tolerate (no, "cope with") the fact that some ppl can get into the kingdom of heaven without believing in Jesus (because they were first), while Gentiles HAVE to believe in Jesus to get in. seems to me it's going through another gate..... and any other gate besides Jesus is not the one true God's gate - because Jesus IS the one true God. :sigh:

[Blindfaith]

Just in case y'all missed it on page 5;



***MODERATION***

I suggest everyone takes a deep breath, as well as a step back.

When someone's faith is being attacked, I understand the desire to defend it.

Chill out before I close this thread. Thanks. :)

Keep it civil please. :)

[LynneClomina]

The Holy Spirit spoke by the Prophets and is the Giver of Life (c.f. the Nicean/Constantinopolitan Creed ;) )
well there ya go! thanks, wise Oblio!!! :hug:

[LynneClomina]

Oh good :)

"I shall bless those who bless you and curseth those who curse you"

respect the authorities over you, for they are place there by God.

CF rules are the authorities.

please dont spit at them, or at us for following them.

thanks.

[seebs]

i believe that we have ONE God in THREE persons. ONE BEING, THREE distinct, eternal, and co-existing and co-operating (ie. all at once, not in cycles or modes) SPIRITUAL PERSONALITIES. i dont find that hard to understand at all.

I'd have to sit down with a dictionary and a stack of books to figure out whether what you just said is true or not. Most claims I see on trinitarian doctrine turn out to be formal heresies, but the terminology is sufficiently picky and precise that it's hard to tell.

However, whether or not it is easy for you to understand it is not at issue. What's at issue is whether or not someone who lacks your understanding is thereby worshipping a totally different God, or merely mistaken about the attributes of the one God that we actually believe in.

[seebs]

You forgot the "The Father Amighty ...and in one Lord Jesus Christ ... and in The Holy Spirit ..." parts of the N/C Creed.

I didn't forget them; I merely pointed out that we do believe in only one God, in three persons. These are not three Gods; they are one God.

[LynneClomina]

Let's put it another way.

Is YHVH the one true God or not? If you don't specifically use that name when you pray, does that mean you're not praying to Him? What about if you're a Chinese Christian, and you pray to a series of syllables that most Americans can't pronounce, but you mean the same entity?

If Jesus is God, then anyone who prays to God must be praying to Jesus. Or are you saying there are other Gods they could be praying to? How many entities created all things seen and unseen, anyway?

so, the hindus that pray to god are praying to Jesus? or the pagans that pray to animistic gods are REALLY, even though they dont know it, are praying to Jesus? er, i dont think so!! :)

:bow: JESUS

[seebs]

hmm, i think its UNFORTUNATE that most "gentile" christians still see them selves as lesser than the Jews in God's eyes. the bible clearly states that there is now NO distiction in God's eyes between Jew and Gentile. it's strange to me that christians can tolerate that some ppl can get into the kingdom of heaven without believing in Jesus (because they were first), while Gentiles HAVE to believe in Jesus to get in. seems to me it's going through another gate..... and any other gate besides Jesus is not the one true God's gate - because Jesus IS the one true God. :sigh:

It seems to me that the prophets and patriarchs of the Old Testament never talked about Jesus. Maybe they believed in some strange abstract way where they never used the name or talked about another "person" of God... But if that's the case, then lots of people could be believing in strange abstract ways we don't understand.

Your point is a very telling one, however. You seem to be describing this as though it's unfair for it to be easier for some or harder for others, but the parable of the vineyard tells us that it doesn't matter when you are called to work, if you come when you are called, you get paid. It isn't a question of whether it's easier, or harder. God extends His grace as He will.

[seebs]

so, the hindus that pray to god are praying to Jesus? or the pagans that pray to animistic gods are REALLY, even though they dont know it, are praying to Jesus? er, i dont think so!! :)

I have no idea. I don't tend to think so, but their relationship with God is between Him and them; I am no part of it.

However, this remains a pretty large red herring. We are not talking here about people whose entire cosmology is different from ours, but about the very people whose faith gave us the words by which we now know God. We are talking about people who pray to the God that made covenant with Abraham.

To borrow from an old hair club for men ad, Jesus could have said "Remember, I'm not just the King of the Jews, but I'm also a member!"

He Himself was Jewish. I am hesitant to question His decision in this matter and declare that to be Jewish is to worship a false God. If Jesus was wrong about His worship of the God of the Jews, then we are wrong to follow Him.

[Oblio]

I didn't forget them; I merely pointed out that we do believe in only one God, in three persons. These are not three Gods; they are one God.

Agreed. One God in Three persons.
A Jew will disagree with us however. They will not say, "I don't understand the terminology or Theology" (which is fine), they will say "You are nuts, Messiah has not come ... etc."

[LynneClomina]

It seems to me that the prophets and patriarchs of the Old Testament never talked about Jesus. Maybe they believed in some strange abstract way where they never used the name or talked about another "person" of God... But if that's the case, then lots of people could be believing in strange abstract ways we don't understand.

Your point is a very telling one, however. You seem to be describing this as though it's unfair for it to be easier for some or harder for others, but the parable of the vineyard tells us that it doesn't matter when you are called to work, if you come when you are called, you get paid. It isn't a question of whether it's easier, or harder. God extends His grace as He will.

hmm, the parable about the vineyard tells us that those who came LATE in the game get paid the SAME. ie, those who believe in God longer dont get paid anymore than those of us who come later. the parable of the wedding tells us that those who were invited first and refused to come were then left to their own devices, and NEW people, not those who were chosen first were invited, and willingly came. the beggars and second class ppl.

[seebs]

Agreed. One God in Three persons.
A Jew will disagree with us however.

Sure.

And a Catholic may believe that it's one God in Three persons, who is also present as flesh in the Eucharist, and I might not be convinced of that, but while I may think he's mistaken about the nature of God, I will still grant that he is clearly talking about the same God.

This is like two kids arguing over whether Michael Jordon, the famous basketball player, also plays baseball. One of them is clearly wrong, but it is necessary for the conversation to even take place that they're talking about the same guy.

I don't see how the Jews can be worshipping the wrong God without Jesus, who was a Jew, being wrong about God... and I am pretty sure that Christianity runs into foundational problems if Jesus is wrong about God.

[seebs]

hmm, the parable about the vineyard tells us that those who came LATE in the game get paid the SAME. ie, those who believe in God longer dont get paid anymore than those of us who come later. the parable of the wedding tells us that those who were invited first and refused to come were then left to their own devices, and NEW people, not those who were chosen first were invited, and willingly came. the beggars and second class ppl.

Sure. So, we get in easy, but that doesn't mean they aren't there too.

[LynneClomina]

I have no idea. I don't tend to think so, but their relationship with God is between Him and them; I am no part of it.

However, this remains a pretty large red herring. We are not talking here about people whose entire cosmology is different from ours, but about the very people whose faith gave us the words by which we now know God. We are talking about people who pray to the God that made covenant with Abraham.

To borrow from an old hair club for men ad, Jesus could have said "Remember, I'm not just the King of the Jews, but I'm also a member!"

He Himself was Jewish. I am hesitant to question His decision in this matter and declare that to be Jewish is to worship a false God. If Jesus was wrong about His worship of the God of the Jews, then we are wrong to follow Him.

hmm. i know He was culterally and ancestrally a Jew, but i tend to think of Him as the first Christian! THE CHRIST!!! :D :clap: :wave:

[LynneClomina]

Sure. So, we get in easy, but that doesn't mean they aren't there too.
never said they wont get in too. never said that! but they have to believe on Jesus first! :wave:

[seebs]

hmm. i know He was culterally and ancestrally a Jew, but i tend to think of Him as the first Christian! THE CHRIST!!! :D :clap: :wave:

He was a practicing religious Jew. He worshipped the same God that the other Jews did. When He talked to Jews, He didn't say "you're worshipping the wrong God", He said "your understanding of God is flawed". What about the woman at the well?

Time and time again, He corrects peoples' understanding of what God is like, but He rarely (if ever) says "no, that's not God, that's someone else".

[seebs]

never said they wont get in too. never said that! but they have to believe on Jesus first! :wave:

Hmm. Before Jesus came, did everyone go to Hell, then? If not, what exactly was the cutoff? At what point do you think that people who never heard about any of this started going to Hell for being Jewish? Right after the crucifiction? Before that? After that? When did their God change?

[LynneClomina]

He was a practicing religious Jew. He worshipped the same God that the other Jews did. When He talked to Jews, He didn't say "you're worshipping the wrong God", He said "your understanding of God is flawed". What about the woman at the well?

Time and time again, He corrects peoples' understanding of what God is like, but He rarely (if ever) says "no, that's not God, that's someone else".

you misunderstand me, seebs. i believe he did worship the same as the Jews AT THE TIME. Jews at THAT TIME did worship the one true God. but from the moment of Christ's death, they were then held responsible to believe on Him like all the rest of humanity for their salvation. no longer looking ahead in faith for the savior, He came, and any who rejected Him rejected everything the OT taught about the savior. so then the pick and choose what to believe in the OT about God, and refuse to acknowledge Him as He IS - and always was - JESUS, the Savior, the Christ. yes, all the OT saints who believed the redeemer was coming were saved, i believe, but after He came, any one who rejects Him - ANYONE, Jew or Gentile - is not a follower of the ONE true God.

[LynneClomina]

Hmm. Before Jesus came, did everyone go to Hell, then? If not, what exactly was the cutoff? At what point do you think that people who never heard about any of this started going to Hell for being Jewish? Right after the crucifiction? Before that? After that? When did their God change? the moment they first heard that the savior has come, that is the so-called cut off point. then they became responsible, same as the rest of us, for recieving Christ. and if they dont, like the rest of us......... :help:

[WayneThe5th]

I come down on this more or less the same as Lynne.

[seebs]

you misunderstand me, seebs. i believe he did worship the same as the Jews AT THE TIME. Jews at THAT TIME did worship the one true God. but from the moment of Christ's death, they were then held responsible to believe on Him like all the rest of humanity for their salvation. no longer looking ahead in faith for the savior, He came, and any who rejected Him rejected everything the OT taught about the savior. so then the pick and choose what to believe in the OT about God, and refuse to acknowledge Him as He IS - and always was - JESUS, the Savior, the Christ. yes, all the OT saints who believed the redeemer was coming were saved, i believe, but after He came, any one who rejects Him - ANYONE, Jew or Gentile - is not a follower of the ONE true God.

Hmm. So, when exactly did this change? Let's consider the case of a man we'll call Benjamin. Benjamin was an observant Jew who lived far from Rome. He was devout and observant, and he lived his life looking forward to the coming of the Messiah. He died, hoping that the Messiah would come soon.

So.

Does Ben go to Hell? Does he go to Hell if he died the night Jesus was born? How about when Jesus was 15 or so? How about when Jesus started preaching? What if he dies the same day Jesus is cruficied? What if he dies a few weeks after the Resurrection? Keep in mind, he lives far away. He never hears anything.

How about if someone tells him that there was a guy named Jesus, but that this guy was a fake Messiah? Is he required to realize that this is the true Messiah, given only one person's garbled testimony? What if the guy he talks to says Jesus is the real Messiah, but is obviously drunk and too incoherent to be understood?

It seems to me that it is beyond our power to draw the line. There may indeed be some who have turned away from the Messiah, but I think there are many more who have never been truly exposed to Him. I would think this especially true in a world where Christians have not been particularly good witnesses for Christ.

[seebs]

the moment they first heard that the savior has come, that is the so-called cut off point. then they became responsible, same as the rest of us, for recieving Christ. and if they dont, like the rest of us......... :help:

So, no matter how badly the story is told, if you hear it, you become instantly responsible? So, say, if a drunken child abuser tells you that everything he does is okay, because he's got the Savior, and you don't believe him, BAM, you're hellbound, because you should have accepted the Savior?

[Eusebios]

The short answer is no, the solid Christian apologetic has already been made.We do not worship the God (with an o thank you) of the Jews any more than we worship the God of the Muslims, though all in the Middle East all may call Him Allah. The refusal of both to acknowledge God the Son and God the Holy Spirit reject the Christian God and follow a false one, tough but true, deal with it.
His unworthy servant,
Eusebios.
:bow:

[LynneClomina]

Hmm. So, when exactly did this change? Let's consider the case of a man we'll call Benjamin. Benjamin was an observant Jew who lived far from Rome. He was devout and observant, and he lived his life looking forward to the coming of the Messiah. He died, hoping that the Messiah would come soon.

So.

Does Ben go to Hell? Does he go to Hell if he died the night Jesus was born? How about when Jesus was 15 or so? How about when Jesus started preaching? What if he dies the same day Jesus is cruficied? What if he dies a few weeks after the Resurrection? Keep in mind, he lives far away. He never hears anything.

How about if someone tells him that there was a guy named Jesus, but that this guy was a fake Messiah? Is he required to realize that this is the true Messiah, given only one person's garbled testimony? What if the guy he talks to says Jesus is the real Messiah, but is obviously drunk and too incoherent to be understood?

It seems to me that it is beyond our power to draw the line. There may indeed be some who have turned away from the Messiah, but I think there are many more who have never been truly exposed to Him. I would think this especially true in a world where Christians have not been particularly good witnesses for Christ.

no, we cant draw a CLEAR line. but we can a general one. but if he lived now, and heard about Jesus, and rejected the witness of the Holy Spirit that that Jesus is the true messiah, and died in that rejection, then yeah. there would hardly be a jew alive today that had never heard of Jesus and Christianity and at least SOME of it's claims that Jesus is the messiah.

[Eusebios]

So, no matter how badly the story is told, if you hear it, you become instantly responsible? So, say, if a drunken child abuser tells you that everything he does is okay, because he's got the Savior, and you don't believe him, BAM, you're hellbound, because you should have accepted the Savior?
You are WAY out on a limb here, give it a rest eh?

[Reformationist]

The short answer is no, the solid Christian apologetic has already been made.We do not worship the God (with an o thank you) of the Jews any more than we worship the God of the Muslims, though all in the Middle East all may call Him Allah. The refusal of both to acknowledge God the Son and God the Holy Spirit reject the Christian God and follow a false one, tough but true, deal with it.
His unworthy servant,
Eusebios.
:bow:

Thank you! Finally, someone with enough sand to not be scared of proclaiming the truth.

God bless

[LynneClomina]

So, no matter how badly the story is told, if you hear it, you become instantly responsible? So, say, if a drunken child abuser tells you that everything he does is okay, because he's got the Savior, and you don't believe him, BAM, you're hellbound, because you should have accepted the Savior?

seebs, :sigh: is that the GOOD news? or a plain and simple LIE?????

if i grew up in an abusive situation, where the gospel was told to me badly, does that excuse me from responsibility? or if i NEVER heard the gospel? nope. we die spiritually because we are born into sin, not because we reject the savior. only the elect will hear about the savior, the GOOD news, in such a way as they can recieve it. those who do not and die in their sin, die spiritually as well. IMO. ;)

[LynneClomina]

BTW, i DID grow up in a situation where the gospel i heard was distorted and NOT "good" news. it was bondage news to me. so i rejected it. but because i didnt understand it didnt excuse me from my lack of belief. i was still in sin, and THAT is what would have sent me to hell had i died at age 12 or 16 or 22.

[Blindfaith]

***MODERATION***

This does not necessarily reflect on any specific member, but I'm closing this thread.

The reason? Because the very people that are being discussed are not allowed to debate in here, and that's not really fair. I would have a hard time not being allowed to defend my faith, but at this time that's as the rules stand and I respect said rules. :)

Be blessed, Jews and Gentiles alike. :)