Yeshua gave us Judaism

[ShirChadash]

Some of my thoughts:
Since what is now known as Judaism is the only faith handed down from YHVH Elohim directly to His people, the faith, practices, statutes and all for everyone who would follow YHVH Elohim and call upon His Name, both Jew and non-Jew... since Yeshua is the Memra (the Living Word of G-d), and YHVH Elohim gave His Torah (His "Teachings") through His Yeshua/Memra by the power of His Spirit... since Yeshua fulfilled (correctly interpreted, and thereby established rather than ended) the Torah, spoke and expounded upon Torah in the vast majority of His words as written in the Gospels... since He told His followers to obey and follow Torah as a way of life showing our love for HaShem... since He sent His apostles forth with the command to teach others to follow Torah (as CharlesinFlorida has pointed out recently in some posts)... *I* would say that Yeshua gave us Torah-observant Judaism, and established and ratified it in His coming as Messiah.

Messianics, please add your thoughts.

[simchat_torah]

I have always expressed that I believe in the religion of the messiah, not the religion about the messiah.

[Hix]

I totally agree, Yeshua was born and lived a fully Orthodox Jew, he taught the Torah and spoke Oral Law often. He told the people to follow the halacha of the Pharisees but to be carefull not to be hypocritical about it. Yeshua confirmed the eternal salvation that is Torah and taught Judaism for all.

So everyone must ask, if Yeshua kept and taught Torah, if he celebrated the festivles, if he kept the proper Shabbat, if he prayed to and worshipped HaShem: Then why dont we all do the same?

The Torah is life. Choose life!

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[INOrder]

Hello all,

I am beginning to see that Jesus was a Torah (Written and Oral) observant Jew.

Also, not everyone can participate in the complete obeying of MTZVOT (shulchan aruch)

bye

[Henaynei]

Some of my thoughts:
Since what is now known as Judaism is the only faith handed down from YHVH Elohim directly to His people, the faith, practices, statutes and all for everyone who would follow YHVH Elohim and call upon His Name, both Jew and non-Jew... since Yeshua is the Memra (the Living Word of G-d), and YHVH Elohim gave His Torah (His "Teachings") through His Yeshua/Memra by the power of His Spirit... since Yeshua fulfilled (correctly interpreted, and thereby established rather than ended) the Torah, spoke and expounded upon Torah in the vast majority of His words as written in the Gospels... since He told His followers to obey and follow Torah as a way of life showing our love for HaShem... since He sent His apostles forth with the command to teach others to follow Torah (as CharlesinFlorida has pointed out recently in some posts)... *I* would say that Yeshua gave us Torah-observant Judaism, and established and ratified it in His coming as Messiah.



Messianics, please add your thoughts.
*My* thoughts????:scratch: 'ow 'bout Omeyn!!??

[ShirChadash]

:clap: OH GOOD! I love OMEYN to my comments...



(zemmy stops sweating)

[Henaynei]

(zemmy stops sweating)Dear, Don't you know??

Horses sweathttp://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_164.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001)

Men perspire http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/3/3_2_106.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001)
We Ladies....Glisten!!! http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_6_1v.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001) ;)

[ShirChadash]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA! OKay.


Zemi, erg... stops glistening?


Hm. Is that a bad thing then?

[Henaynei]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA! OKay.


Zemi, erg... stops glistening?


Hm. Is that a bad thing then?
No dear, you are absolutely GLOWING!!! http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_1_203.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001)

[ShirChadash]

Why, thankya, thankya very much! 5:-)

[ShirChadash]

0_0 staring hard...


Yeshua

IS THE WORD OF G-D.

When Yeshua was called that

(Jn 1, in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with G-d and the Word was G-d)

The ONLY written WORD of G-D (scripture), the written WORD to which John was referring was the

"OLD TESTAMENT".

And the covenant is not an OLD covenant and a NEW covenant, but a RENEWED covenant.

G-d does not change. Say it with me... G-d does not change. We say it... then we don't believe and speak and teach and understand the written Word in ways that uphold that view.

YESHUA the WORD of G-D gave the Torah/Law. Yeshua gave us what is now called JUDAISM.

And when Yeshua is revealed, individuals will have to choose.


YES?

[ShirChadash]

*sigh*


More:

Abraham believed upon the MEMRA of the Lord...
http://www.yashanet.com/library/memra.htm

What's that you say? The WORD of YHVH? Hm -- and the WORD of YHVH is also Torah -- written = Law given to Moses; living = Yeshua. Jews believe upon the Messiah. They may not know Him by name today... but they cry for Yeshua with so many daily prayers.

NO ONE HAS EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER COME TO THE FATHER BUT THROUGH HIS YESHUA (SALVATION) BY THE POWER OF HIS SPIRIT. THIS IS NOT A NEW THING. THIS IS NOT NOT NOT NOT A NEW THING AS OF THE COMING OF YESHUA (YHVH'S SALVATION) IN HUMAN FORM. FROMTIME IMMEMORIAL, NO ONE COMETH TO THE FATHER BUT THROUGH THE SON BY THE POWER OF THE RUACH ELOHIM (SPIRIT OF GOD!!!).



:sigh: :help: :sigh:

[Henaynei]

:sigh: :help: :sigh:You don't need help - you're doing just fine!!!;)

[ShirChadash]

All right, thank you my priceless sister!


Then I'm just gonna bring more!

More on the Memra (Who is Messiah Yeshua, the Word of G-d, the living Torah, through Whom the ONE TRUE G-D YHVH gave the written Torah, which is what Jews read, and believe, pray, embrace, love, proclaim):

http://www.naturedox.com/haderech/Moses&Memra.htm

http://www.cliffordaweber.com/memra.htm

http://www.bibleword.org/memra.htm



AND the Spirit of G-d (the Ruach Elohim) was also present, and part and parcel of Jewish faith and teaching:

Pharaoh recognized Joseph had the Spirit of G-d: Genesis 41:33-45

G-d gave His Spirit to many, as He chose, in the Old Testament: Exodus 31:3; Numbers 11:16-23; Numbers 24:1-2; Numbers 27:15-23 to name a few passages...


And for those of you who feel so sure that Jews don't worship the right G-d... here's a thought to ponder:

If Jews don't have and know the One True G-D -- what are YOU DOING with their Scripture (and if you are a Cathlolic, their apocrypha as well) in YOUR BIBLE?

It's the same Scripture that prophesied your savior. It's the same Scripture that Yeshua prayed and loved and gave and taught and told His followers (that's US too, folks) to FOLLOW. It's the same Scripture that the Jews know and love and teach and believe and follow... the same Scripture that was spoken of as being "profitable" in the "New Testament", the one and only SCRIPTURE in existence at that time... and given to the Jews directly from G-d through Messiah Himself.

[ShirChadash]

Prov. 5:21 For the ways of man are before the eyes of the Lord, And He ponders all his paths. 22 His own iniquities entrap the wicked man, And he is caught in the cords of his sin. 23 He shall die for lack of instruction, And in the greatness of his folly he shall go astray.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being priest for Me; Because you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children.




Shameless bump. Again.

[JewishHeart]

Yeshua gave us His precious blood and a relationship with YHVH, this is far better than Judaism!!! (Taking the fact I do practice messianic Judaism)

[Henaynei]

Yeshua gave us His precious blood and a relationship with YHVH, this is far better than Judaism!!! (Taking the fact I do practice messianic Judaism)
They are inclusive of each other. Neither excludes the other.

[ShirChadash]

At the risk of this being a less-than-welcome thread, nonetheless...


*bump*

[MyLittleWonders]

At the risk of this being a less-than-welcome thread, nonetheless...


*bump*

Not at all! It is much welcomed and appreciated, at least by me!!!

:amen: :amen: :amen:

[MyZz]

and me !:amen:

[visionary]

And me...

[talmidim]

And Me!

[koilias]

Say Zemmy...Did you know the Israelites both saw and heard the voice of G-d at Sinai?...The Rabbis go nuts over this.

[ShirChadash]

Say Zemmy...Did you know the Israelites both saw and heard the voice of G-d at Sinai?...The Rabbis go nuts over this.

:idea: Do tell, Koilias! I think I have heard/seen this mentioned somewhere in my learning along the way but it has been a long time and I all but forgot... and now you have me intrigued (even though I was lurking and I should be wandering off to bed instead of posting :blush: but I couldn't resist asking about this right away and tomorrow isn't soon enough! Uh oh -- now *I* will be awake all night on THIS one! :D )... sooooo could/would you expound??!

:thumbsup:

[yod]

Since what is now known as Judaism is the only faith handed down from YHVH Elohim directly to His people, the faith, practices, statutes and all for everyone who would follow YHVH Elohim



I understand what you're saying Zemmy....but it is not a factually accurate statement, imo.

Judaism may be the closest "religion" to what Yeshua lived but Judaism (as it is practised today) was invented at Yavneh in response to the Temple being destroyed...and in response to messianic jews of Yeshua's time.


HaShem has never given a name to the faith of Avraham so I'm not sure what you would call it?? He has always prefered that we walk in the cool of the day with Him instead of sewing fig leaves together. The law was added because of sin.

Please don't misunderstand.....I'm not trying to be insulting....but I believe that Yeshua does not want us relying on any kind of observances, rituals, or religion in the slightest way.

Faith is really all that He wants.


"When the Son of Man comes will He find faith in the earth?"

[koilias]

"When the Son of Man comes will He find faith in the earth?"

Indeed, "faith" is the key term. He may find religion, but not faith.

[koilias]

:idea: Do tell, Koilias! I think I have heard/seen this mentioned somewhere in my learning along the way but it has been a long time and I all but forgot... and now you have me intrigued (even though I was lurking and I should be wandering off to bed instead of posting :blush: but I couldn't resist asking about this right away and tomorrow isn't soon enough! Uh oh -- now *I* will be awake all night on THIS one! :D )... sooooo could/would you expound??!

:thumbsup:

I came across it in James Kugel's wonderful Traditions of the Bible: a Guide to the Bible as it Was at the start of the Common Era (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0674791517/102-1259972-8356162)...the chapter on Mt. Sinai.

This gorgeous book should be required reading for every Christian. At least if they want to understand something about the NT. Kugel summarizes in a breathtaking and extremely readable (and highly entertaining) manner the way Jews like our NT writers read and thought about the Tenakh. Believe me, this makes a tremendous difference in accessing the background of the NT..the stories behind the story.

Zemmy, unfortunately I haven't sat down to really study it...but I suspect "seeing voices" is behind our Yohannan's hypostatic view of Memra.

[koilias]

Another intriguing link is the fact that Yohannan identifies the Memra with the light of the first day of creation. So His statement "yehi or"/"let there be light" is itself the light.

[ShirChadash]

Interesting --

so Koilias, would you say that in essence that would be the same as Him saying...

Let there be...






Me

?

Wait, don't take that anywhere wacky -- it's just a thought that struck me... not that G-d created Himself. LOL.

[visionary]

Let's put ourselves in God's place and we are trying to get people to follow us. We want them to be like us and walk and talk like us because it is the way to live for eternity. Problem....while the outline of basic understandings on different situations will give an idea of what and how things are to be handled, it does not bring life into living, and reality answers for and into every situation. Solution....do the living breathing example that all can see... enter Yeshua. Problem...people are finding difficulty between the basic outline and the living example....solution .... the Holy Spirit live in them, so that they may see the outline and understand the principals in light of their situation and live it like is was Yeshua living through the experience....problem solved.

[koilias]

I don't know Zem...something like that.;) G-d's Word being in the world...itself is not of it, the world (darkness) not comprehending it. Kinda have to get Kabbalistic here somewhere.

Just the word "yehi" (will become) is interesting. Yud heh yud.

[visionary]

I am interested in "saw" the voice of God ...Say Zemmy...Did you know the Israelites both saw and heard the voice of G-d at Sinai?...The Rabbis go nuts over this.I am going to repeat Zemmy's request. Do tell, Koilias! I think I have heard/seen this mentioned somewhere in my learning along the way but it has been a long time and I all but forgot... and now you have me intrigued (even though I was lurking and I should be wandering off to bed instead of posting but I couldn't resist asking about this right away and tomorrow isn't soon enough! Uh oh -- now *I* will be awake all night on THIS one! )... sooooo could/would you expound??!

[koilias]

I'm not sure I can expand or even if it is my place to.:blush:

The problem with the attempt to understand G-d in human terms is that you come to the limits of language...and I'm not going Zen here and saying you can only understand G-d intuitively or some nonsense like that.

But, I'll say, something of the mystery Yohannan 1 is presenting is that it shows us that the Memra of G-d is the "being of G-d made comprehensible" to those who love Him. Those who draw to Him. The Word of G-d is G-d making Himself known to the world. G-d making His nature known in human terms, in human language. G-d creates the world using a language comprehensible to mankind. "Yehi Or" is human language...Human language--think about that!...Somewhere in there is the very essense of Yeshua.

[ShirChadash]

but I believe that Yeshua does not want us relying on any kind of observances, rituals, or religion in the slightest way.

Well, Yod, I have to ask you... what exactly do you assume I am suggesting we be relying on observances, rituals or "religion" for? Really, who said anything about relying on them for anything at all? I rely on observances for nothing, however I do allow observances and rituals to be personal, outward expressions and evidences of what I already have: Salvation/relationship with the Father through Y'shua.

Yod, I mean no disrespect. It has often seemed to me from your posts that you continually assume that other people who believe in embracing, learning and attempting to follow Torah and who preach Torah-observance as the G'd-intended saved-and-maturing-believer's way of life, in your opinion automatically are “focussing on Torah” to the near-exclusion of Y'shua (or at least... "too much"), and following Torah for little more than religiousity and selfish benefit in order to "get-something" from Torah-observance. You also seem to assume they must see themselves as "having a 'leg-up' on", being "holier-than", or being "more acceptable to G-d than" others who do not walk the walk of Torah-observance. I have yet to ever find that to be truly the reason anyone is following Torah.

Not once have I ever seen any of the pro-Torah-observance members here claim to be more righteous than anyone who doesn't believe in Torah-observance, and in fact I know more than a few of the people on this forum reasonably well OFF of this forum and have had opportunity to discuss enough on the sidelines with them to know that their Torah-observing is a personal stand and not something over which they are "puffed up" but rather it is a stand which they humbly (and often with astonishment) believe G-d has revealed to them, for them to do, and over which He alone has convicted them. And some -- like me -- also have occasional thoughts and insights re: Torah-observance to share with others in the hopes that they might be interested to read, and then ponder along with us. I think those who are interested in torah-observance and feel unquestioningly led to delve into it, can sometimes be very outspoken and post often on Torah and matters of observance, but not necessarily because we are filled with pride and self-"righteousness" over embracing Torah, but rather because 1) we desire to flesh out the hows- and whys- of what G-d has called us to -- a fully Biblical, yes even for some, a very "Judaic" (for lack of a better term) walk before Him... And/or 2) a calling to address the anemia of the Christian faith-walk without Torah. Those on the "You're focussing too much on Torah" "side" of this forum routinely assume, accuse, mischaracterize and disdainfully malign those who do hold to a more "Judaic" expression and observance, however.






Faith is really all that He wants.


"faith", as in "belief"/"trust", is in no way negated or diminished by various practices, observances and ritual. (cf: James 2:18). Would you tell a Christian that engaging in "communion" is a ritual/ordinance/observance/practice which hinders a Christian's faith in Jesus?






So, now, perhaps a bit of explanation is in order, especially since I wrote the OP to this thread quite some time ago:

1) I do believe that growing slowly and ever more in Torah-observance is completely in line with G-d's expectations (and yes, I believe G-d HAS expectations of us), and His instructions for living as one of His already-saved-and-in-relationship-with-Him children.


2) I also believe that allowing G-d's Spirit to continually make G-dly changes in our daily lives is exactly what makes us Holy/sanctified, and we are sanctified directly by the washing -- that's an action on Y'shua's part-- of the Word/Torah (cf: Eph 5), which can happen to us when we hear/learn/obey and live His Torah instructions -- which are actions on our part. I believe this is what Torah-observance accomplishes in the life of the in-relationship-with-G'd-through-Y'shua believer -- and I believe that “washing of the Word” is INHERANT to a living and dynamic faith-life in Y'shua. Personally, I say we cannot have one (the living and dynamic faith-life in Y'shua) without the other (hearing/learning/obeying and living His Torah instructions, in other words, being "Washed in the Word"). This includes, but is not in ANY way limited to the "New" testament writings, as I believe there is really nothing much new in the "New" Testament -- it is largely Torah and Talmud, reiterated and expounded.

3) Just for reference, I am entirely convinced that the Torah (teaching/instruction/standards) of G-d was known by Adam and Eve before the Fall, and in fact was what Y'shua, in walking with them in the cool of the garden, taught them and shared with them. Torah and Y'shua are inseparable. Torah did not come about/become instituted/come into effect only because of sin, for how could there be sin (transgression of Torah) if there was no Torah before sin? Sacrifice did not need to occur in our temporal time on this earth until there was sin on this earth, however it was the existing standard of G-d nonetheless; He knew man would sin and Y'shua was slain in atonement for sin before the foundations of the earth were even lain.

4) So to be clear about where I am coming from: the only religion *I* know of on this earth, to date, that actually validates as binding, truly embraces, and upholds G-d's Torah standards -- which He gave and SPOKE by His Y'shua/Memra/Salvation to His children, and meant for them to live by -- that religion is called by men, "Judaism". And with acceptance of Y'shua Messiah, "Messianic Judaism".

So, what I said previously on this thread,


YESHUA the WORD of G-D gave the Torah/Law. Yeshua gave us what is now called JUDAISM.


I stand by, as my understanding, in line with what I wrote above that ^ quote here in this post. Is G-d bound by man's terminology? I highly doubt it. But Judah-ism is the term coined by man to delineate the Torah-observant faith practiced by the people of G-d and Messiah Y'shua Himself.


5) I am entirely convinced that the Torah (teaching/instruction/standards) of G-d was known by Adam and Eve before the Fall, and in fact was what Y'shua, in walking with them in the cool of the garden, taught them and shared with them. It did not come about only because of sin, for there could be no sin (which IS transgression of Torah) if there was no Torah to transgress until after sin occured. Sacrifice did not need to occur in our temportal time and on this earth until there was sin on this earth, however it was the existing standard of G-d nonetheless; He knew man would sin and Y'shua died before the foundations of the earth were even lain.

6) And, yes, I do believe great riches in the personal spiritual life may be gained *as part and parcel* of (and not as the purpose or focus of) following Y'shua AND obeying His Torah commands; after all, are there not blessings to be had in seeking Him, and His WAYS and WILL, as well as His Salvation? Does it make me "better" than others who do not care to learn Torah? I certainly don't think so! Does it make me blessed? ABSOLUTELY!! Do I feel strongly about speaking out to address the lie that Torah-observance is unnecessary and unacceptable for saved-and-maturing believers, which is what is commonly taught in the "churches"? Yes, I do, and I'll shout it from the housetops in whatever venue the good L-rd gives me to do so, whenever I feel called to, as long as I am able. IMO, the church's teaching that obedience to G-d's Torah is unnecessary for the saved believer, is the very “great deception” that has befallen most in the body of believers. Do I believe one can be saved without being Torah observant? Yes, I do. But Y'shua does not save us to then leave us living life just as we please and as WE think is best. He means to be not only “Savior” but also “LORD” -- Master.

Shalom.

[yod]

Whew! That's a lot to cover!

It has often seemed to me from your posts that you continually assume that other people who believe in embracing, learning and attempting to follow Torah and who preach Torah-observance as the G'd-intended saved-and-maturing-believer's way of life, in your opinion automatically are “focussing on Torah” to the near-exclusion of Y'shua

Pardon me if I read the OP wrong but it did seem to elevate "judaism" as a path to pleasing G-d. Do you honestly believe that G-d is impressed with any religious works?

Yes, I am sensitive to the term "torah-observance" as a means of righteousness because that describes our good works.....and so much of that is human interpretation.






Would you tell a Christian that engaging in "communion" is a ritual/ordinance/observance/practice which hinders a Christian's faith in Jesus?

If they think a "sacrament" earns them brownie points I certainly would....and do so all the time.



I believe there is really nothing much new in the "New" Testament -- it is largely Torah and Talmud, reiterated and expounded.


Really? I think it was a drastic and dramatic change. Why would Adonai send His only Son to be sacrificed if it were only so the Torah could be repeated?



Just for reference, I am entirely convinced that the Torah (teaching/instruction/standards) of G-d was known by Adam and Eve before the Fall, and in fact was what Y'shua, in walking with them in the cool of the garden, taught them and shared with them.

You can't be serious? Why would Adam and Eve need to know about sacrifice for sin before there was sin?

[Torah]

Yod in no way do I see where Zemirah said that
"torah-observance" (teaching/instruction/standards)
As a means of righteousness.

who said anything about relying on them for anything at all?

She did say: "Torah is (teaching/instruction/standards)"

Torah is teaching and instructing us how to live our life.
And when we fail in following His instructions this is called sin. Thus! Yeshua is our sacrifice, when we fail in following His instructions.




Torah was given to a group of people that are called Jews. Jesus did not come along and start a new religion.
[That was the RCC that did that] But, just added on to what was there ["Judaism"]. And as Zemirah said we are trying to flesh out how to live a life that G-d calls us to live. But in no way do I see where Zemirah has said what you’re accusing of. This is a messianic forum and we are going to be "torah-observance"[.]

[ShirChadash]

Yod ,1 John 3:4 -- SIN *is* transgression of Torah. That is the definition of sin, and it's not mine but Scripture's. There could be no sin if Torah did not exist for sin to transgress and before sin indeed "transgressed" it.


I said:
"faith", as in "belief"/"trust", is in no way negated or diminished by various practices, observances and ritual. (cf: James 2:18). Would you tell a Christian that engaging in "communion" is a ritual/ordinance/observance/practice which hinders a Christian's faith in Jesus?


And you replied:
If they think a "sacrament" earns them brownie points I certainly would....and do so all the time. (side-note... so, Yod, do you also automatically assume people partaking of communion are and must be doing so in order to earn "brownie points" with G-d? Because then you would at least be "fairly" doing the equivalent of what you do here: pre-judging people's intentions in doing any ritual and making blanket-assumptions and accusations about their intentions and motivations.)

Yet, I had already written and explained more than extensively that *I* do not engage in any practices in order to gain "brownie points" for myself but rather out of a desire to be OBEDIENT to the one who owns my life and expects me to allow Him to be master of it (and yes, I think this pleases Him because it is exactly what He has asked of me to do -- is a parent not "pleased" when his child obeys him? Certainly. Does he love the child less if he disobeys? Most certainly not). I said:

I rely on observances for nothing, however I do allow observances and rituals to be personal, outward expressions and evidences of what I already have: Salvation/relationship with the Father through Y'shua.

Not once have I ever seen any of the pro-Torah-observance members here claim to be more righteous than anyone who doesn't believe in Torah-observance


So, I'm wondering...how many times can I and others say this here, and maybe finally be correctly understood and hopefully one day stop being assumed over and falsely accused:

Salvation ("Justification", being put into right relationship, being made "acceptable" by G-d, being brought near through Y'shua, Y'shua becoming our SAVIOR) is through G-d's grace and our trusting faith in Him. And Holiness (SANCTIFICATION, the process of our lives being changed over to be more like Y'shua's, G-d's standards becoming our standards -- "be holy as I am Holy" -- "imitate me as *I* imitate Y'shua" -- cf: Romans 12:2 -- the transforming of our minds and spirits to be in line with the mind of "Christ") occurs through the washing of the WORD (which, when it was written, that comment in Ephesians referred not to any "new" testament at all, as there wasn't one, but to the "Old" Testament).

Torah-observance by an already-saved person in NO way adds to their salvation. And NO ONE -- I mean not one person I have ever known on here -- has ever even hinted at such . Yet a steady stream of posters come through here, assuming and accusing those who DO feel led to embrace a Torah-observant Messianic (TOM) walk as the appropriate expression of their faith in Y'shua.

It amazes me the degree to which

1) TOM's here are accused of trying to hold others accountable to the same standards they have been convicted of *personally* as a part of walking in obedience to G-d (which I've never openly seen, never)

2) but it is a common occurance here for those who are not into TOM to judge those who are, and vehemently accuse and demand that those who are Torah-observant are wrong and Torah-observant for "brownie points" with G-d -- which to my reading is along the same vein as telling TOM's to have the same standards and expression of faith as the non-TOM's do because we're wrong for having different convictions.

Well, I'll tell ya what... what G-d has convicted a man to do, no one ought try to convict that man otherwise; lest you say it isn't of G-d for a man to be convicted to follow the Torah commands Y'shua, the Memra, the Word of G-d, handed down:

Matthew 5:19
Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 19:17
So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

John 14:15
"If you love Me, keep My commandments.

John 14:21
He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."

John 15:10
If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

1 John 3:4
Everyone who keeps sinning is violating Torah - indeed, sin is violation of Torah.

James 2:17
Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God.24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[ShirChadash]

As re this:
Pardon me if I read the OP wrong but it did seem to elevate "judaism" as a path to pleasing G-d. Do you honestly believe that G-d is impressed with any religious works?

Do I think G-d is "impressed"? No. Of course, you are assuming that His very commands are nothing more than "religious" (I sense some good old-fashioned as well as new-fangled misunderstanding heavy in this word, "religious") works and connoting negativity to that. At any rate, is He impressed? I doubt it. But is He pleased when His children choose to live in this world in the manner in which He instructed them? Yeah, I think so.

Yes, I think Judaism is a valid path for expressing our faith-walk in Y'shua, for whoever is taken into it by G-d (Who works with us as individuals) and whoever chooses it; in fact, it's every bit as valid as any other communal system of expression (RCC, Methodist, MJ, ELCA, SDA, to name a very few) which believers may profess and follow as the expression of their faith in Him, as long as one is a sound and firm believer in Y'shua and can get fellowship with other believers in Y'shua as Messiah as well. Some people, sometimes, do need a community in which to practice and learn. One needn't convert to Judaism, or even engage in all practices as a Jew if one finds any of them to be at odds with MJ, in order to pray and learn in synagogue, to practice and live and embrace and adhere to Judaism in general.

As a desiring-to-be-Torah-Observant-Messianic, I can tell you that G-d has led me on a very long spiritual journey to-date, and I am entirely and safely in the palm of His Hand. Judaism is in my future, I have known this for a few years -- the "how" and "when", I do not yet know and that is in His Hands, not mine so much. So, *shrug* having an unmovable faith in Y'shua as Messiah, being in saved relationship with G-d through Y'shua, I do see Judaism as a valid expression of my own relationship with G-d.

Considering that all of those Christian denominations and groups have just as much or more error, and are utterly replete with legalistic man-made ordinances, feasts/festivals, practices, ritual, dogmae, guidelines, requirements, expectations, and teachings as Judaism might be... and Judaism is NOT necessarily incompatible with faith in Messiah anymoreso than gentilized churches and their treatment of the Torah and of Messiah could be called incompatible with a whole-Bible faith... and considering that Judaism at least offers the teaching Torah and the Biblical feasts, the understanding of which, I believe, is essential to understanding and knowing Messiah for Who He really is...

well

... I feel that solid believers in Y'shua may choose Judaism as a valid expression of their faith and that's my stand; you don't have to like it nor agree with it in the least. I don't expect you to agree with me or conform to/hold to my convictions. And here is where you and I actually differ - and frankly, as I see it, many of the TOM members of this forum and many of the nonTOM members differ as well:

I am not out to make anyone else practice their faith as I practice mine or tell people to be in the place I am in and they maybe aren't, or even to judge where their hearts are at or make assumptions about their intentions -- I am here to share what G-d has revealed and is revealing to me for my personal walk, as He leads me to share it, and I hope to flesh it out with others. Will you (and others) allow me (and others) the room to be embracing Torah-observance, without you presuming to know why I am embracing Torah? Can you trust that the Spirit of G-d is able, alive and active in my own life, and capable of teaching me and keeping me exactly where He wants me today and also taking me exactly where He wants me to go -- even if I tell that's specifically IN "TORAH-OBSERVANCE" as the expression of MY faith in His Son?

To date, your and other members' posts often reveal the fact that you simply cannot believe anyone would be TOM without doing so for "religiousity". If anyone posts often on Torah-observance, then you assume that person must be "focussing" on the "Law" and not on Messiah.

Now I feel like asking... who are any of us to judge where G-d takes a man on his own journey -- even into and out of things that he will glean some pearls from (say, Calvinism, Methodism, Catholicism, or even Judaism), along the way? Really, who is anyone to think they have the right to assume, and presume WHY another here practices his faith as he does? A very wise pastor's wife told my Bible study group once that we can judge/know people's actions, but we can NOT judge/know people's intentions or motivations behind what they do. And she is correct.

I'm just very astounded... what if a TOM ran around here proclaiming that everyone who isn't Torah-observant must not be so *simply because* he is spiritually lazy, or full of the sin of thinking he is already perfect and never sins, or another accusation of like-rubbish. We would see boatloads of outcry and complaints about him setting himself up to judge and proclaim others' intentions and motivations for practicing (or not) their faith as they individually do. Do you see what I am saying?

[ShirChadash]

As re:


I believe there is really nothing much new in the "New" Testament -- it is largely Torah and Talmud, reiterated and expounded.

and Yod's reply:

Really? I think it was a drastic and dramatic change. Why would Adonai send His only Son to be sacrificed if it were only so the Torah could be repeated?


You may see this thread
http://www.christianforums.com/t720990-messianic-jews-and-gents-when-did-yeshua-die.html
to find my thoughts about Y'shua's death.

[yod]

So, I'm wondering...how many times can I and others say this here, and maybe finally be correctly understood and hopefully one day stop being assumed over and falsely accused:
We're having problems communicating, Zem. I never accused you of anything, ok?

what if a TOM ran around here proclaiming that everyone who isn't Torah-observant must not be so *simply because* he is spiritually lazy, or full of the sin of thinking he is already perfect and never sins, or another accusation of like-rubbish.


You might not do this but I have seen things like that here.

I am hoping to bring balance to how this must look to a christian who doesn't understand what we believe.

I became messianic because I wanted nothing to do with religion. Apparently, you feel the same way but that can get lost in the translation when we make such long posts in admiration of "judaism".

In my opinion....the problem with saying we are torah "observant" is that it means different things to different people...and doesn't really communicate what we want to say. Why make a distinction between that and just saying "I live a life of faith in Yeshua"?

[insaneinthebrain]

I came across it in James Kugel's wonderful Traditions of the Bible: a Guide to the Bible as it Was at the start of the Common Era (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0674791517/102-1259972-8356162)...the chapter on Mt. Sinai.
You really need to stop recommending such expensive books. :D
(I now have a copy on order ;))

[Wags]

In my opinion....the problem with saying we are torah "observant" is that it means different things to different people...and doesn't really communicate what we want to say. Why make a distinction between that and just saying "I live a life of faith in Yeshua"?

If you say to a Christian "I live a life of faith in Yeshua", they will most likely take that to mean you are just like them. (Except you use a "funny" word for Jesus.) But we, at least I and a few others here, are not just like them.

I know that some messianics have taken to using the term "submissive" instead of "observant". I'm not sure that substituting submissive for observant makes the message any clearer.

Yod - what is it you think we really want to communicate? What specifically do you think is being lost in translation when the phrase " Torah Observant" is used?

I have a rabbi friend that calls himself a "Conserva-dox Messianic" Maybe that is what I should call myself too. ;) Imagine the fun conversations I could have explaining that.:D

[yod]

If you say to a Christian "I live a life of faith in Yeshua", they will most likely take that to mean you are just like them. (Except you use a "funny" word for Jesus.) But we, at least I and a few others here, are not just like them.

well...we were all saved by grace through faith, right? Are we able to perfect what He has done by the Ruach HaKodesh with works of the law?? Do we have any kind of righteousness that He has not provided?

It implies (to a person who genuinely doesn't know any better) that we see ourselves as spiritually superior. Now, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think that is what you are really trying to communicate. :scratch:

Let me paraphrase a verse that might explain how a christian (who genuinely doesn't know any better) would see this.

So when you (observe torah), do not sound a trumpet (announce it) before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be honored by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.




[QUOTE]Yod - what is it you think we really want to communicate?

We trust in the name of the Lord our G-d!

Period.

Let them see the difference and ask...they can tell we are a bit peculiar.



What specifically do you think is being lost in translation when the phrase " Torah Observant" is used?

It implies that His grace is not sufficient to someone that doesn't understand what we mean by it.

Yeah, it's a matter of semantics, but there are a lot of curious christians who are asking questions.

In this forum they can't debate so we don't really know what they are thinking...which means they are also being treated as outsiders already.

I choose to identify with ALL who have put their faith in Adonai even if they know Him as "Jesus" (gasp!). Unfortunately, not everyone here feels that way about christians....which causes me to over-compensate at this particular forum. :P





I have a rabbi friend that calls himself a "Conserva-dox Messianic" Maybe that is what I should call myself too. ;) Imagine the fun conversations I could have explaining that.:D


Maybe we should start a thread to see what the goofiest description would be? Hmmm....I'm a protestreformadoxer?

But really....what did Abraham call His faith? Yeshua came about 3,500 years later and there was still no name given to "trust in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob"

Men want to pidgeon-hole the "true" faith to a certain theological title and I just...can't.....bring myself....to do....that. (said in best William Shatner stutter)

If push comes to shove I will say that I'm messianic...not messianic jewish or messianic gentile. Maybe judeo-christian would be a better term to help some of ya'll understand me...but why does faith have to be labeled? So "we" can judge who is right or wrong?

[yod]

For a long time, I have been getting PMs like this one from different friendly visitors (who will remain anonymous) to our messianic section of the christian forums.




There have been those that maybe unintentionally have made remarks to or about being non-observant, about Christians and paganism, about 'it all' that makes the timid new what ever one would be called feel like going back where they came from.



Now...*I* know that we are just a bunch of misunderstood pussycats....but try to understand how it looks to folks who can't even debate it with us. Can you see how this could do damage to what we are all about? Do we want to be right or righteous?

Do you know what it is like to go to a christian discussion group and get treated like you are weird? We must be above that. We must communicate with caution in love.

Christians won't receive anything we have to say unless they know we sincerely love them.

Do we? I KNOW we do! Apparently, some of them aren't so sure.

[Wags]

It implies that His grace is not sufficient to someone that doesn't understand what we mean by it.

Yeah, it's a matter of semantics, but we have a lot of curious christians who stop by this section of the forum. They can't debate...which means they are already being treated as outsiders.

Yod - I do see your point that it could confuse someone not familiar with what is meant by the expression....

On the other hand my first reaction is:
So we should not describe ourselves as "torah observant" in a messianic forum because christians might happen by and be confused by it? Hmmm.... guess I was under the impression that this space was for messianic believers (jew or non-jew) to discuss, learn, schmooz, etc...

Now don't get me wrong, I welcome questions by those that are seeking to know more about Messiah and messianic judaism. I just don't think we need to censor ourselves to such an extreme.

[Wags]

Now...*I* know that we are just a bunch of misunderstood pussycats....but try to understand how it looks to folks who can't even debate it with us. Can you see how this could do damage to what we are all about? Do we want to be right or righteous?


So maybe there should be a Christian debate section just like there is the Jewish debate section....

[insaneinthebrain]

So maybe there should be a Christian debate section just like there is the Jewish debate section....
Those debates would go in the "General Theology" forum. :)

[yod]

Now don't get me wrong, I welcome questions by those that are seeking to know more about Messiah and messianic judaism. I just don't think we need to censor ourselves to such an extreme.


This isn't confined to just the Boards though. I'm speaking about calling ourselves "torah observant" in general. We say this on these boards because we started describing our congregations that way already.

Anyone who visits a messianic synagogue would know that we are different than your average church by the fact that our services are held on Shabbat.

It would be better to let them ask questions and learn at their own pace. When they see how much FUN we are having in celebration of the Shabbat (and the Torah) it will help them understand that we aren't "bound up in the law".


Another example....this whole "jew & gentile....one new man" thing sort of beats me down. I'd rather just present it than to spend any time talking about it.

Let the world see it. Then they will believe it.

[visionary]

DO you remember your first encounter with "messianic"? I remember that God had lead me to find torah observant just like I believed....but had no clue how to live. IT wasn't but six-seven months ago. IF you notice a lot of those who come to this area of the forum are already lead by the Holy Spirit to come. Their hearts are ready for the more meater matters....although we sometimes act like starving souls and take on bigger bits than we can even chew at first.

For those who are going to oppose, there is no good approach. For those who are lead, this is all good news.

[ShirChadash]

You might not do this but I have seen things like that here.


How recently? You see, I think you are responding to current posters on this forum, *still*, based upon your assumptions about the attitudes/comments of an extremely limited few who perhaps posted here once upon a time.


I am hoping to bring balance to how this must look to a christian who doesn't understand what we believe.

How it must look? I think you are either making more blanket assumptions or you are seeing "how it must look" through the eyes of a very few and certainly not all or even most of those who read here (nonMessianics).


I have noticed that people are reasonably quick to ask about anything they do not understand... or, hey I lurked for about 6 weeks, reading and doing google searches and figuring a lot of things out on my own before I felt comfortable enough to post -- and that's how i am on every site I visit... i never just jump right in.

I became messianic because I wanted nothing to do with religion. Apparently, you feel the same way

No, not exactly -- I came TO messianicism; I did not become messianic in the process of fleeing OUT of any other belief systems/religiousity. I suppose that, to a degree, I came to "protestantism" that way, yes, but not to Messianicism. G-d brought me to messianicism and I was long practicing it before I even knew there was a whole movement called "Messianic Judaism". And now, as a mother of maturing young men and women, and a couple of real youngsters, I am seeing for the first time in years that my family has moved into a place in our life together at which our children are needing and deserving a community which has some agreed-upon stands and understandings and applications of Scripture in order to have some other-than-mom-and-dad solid influences in their lives... "religion" as in "system of practices" has its place and season of value as well.

In my opinion....the problem with saying we are torah "observant" is that it means different things to different people...

And there's no reason people cannot ask, or we as Messianics cannot discuss. I started a thread here on that, myself, quite a long while ago and as I recall, it didn't make CF fall apart to ask everyone in this forum a simple, "what does 'Torah-Observant' mean to you?"


and doesn't really communicate what we want to say.

Well, if it communicates that we walk out our faith according to the path laid out in the "Old" Testament by G-d Himself... then it says what we want it to say, in *my* opinion. Now, if people make ASSUMPTIONS about WHY we are walking that way, well then, surely there is no way to communicate the truth about our intentions in Torah-Observance if people make assumptions and are more comfortable holding onto them no matter what we say that better explains or refutes -- especially if the only way we can communicate is in our posts and we try not to post on issues of Torah-observance (by which, perhaps, people could at least see if we are relying on Torah-Observance for selfish ego-trips. Or NOT).

Why make a distinction between that and just saying "I live a life of faith in Yeshua"?

Well, if all that matters is that we live a life of faith in Y'shua, and we don't even have any interest in, or need for, determining what Y'shua Himself said IS a life of faith in Him...

well why are we specifically "Messianic" at all, Yod? Everyone who is a believer in many and all sorts of things... who at least believes Jesus lived on earth for a while and taught good ideas one should esteem... can feasibly say he is "living of life of faith in Jesus". And if all that matters is that we're saved by Jesus -- Christians in truth -- and all we're doing is fleeing religion and religiousity, well we can do that and just go be non-denominational Christians, or even Christians in any one of the sufficiently-Christian denominations and groups, since we can be in and practice the tenets of pretty much all of them and not necessarily BE religious, even if that system MAY be religious in and of itself.

Why have a Messianic forum at all, and why are we wasting time discussing in this forum when we could be in the non-denom and other fora and stop seeming "different" ot allowing the differing forums to make a perceivable barrier between US as believers and OTHER believers?

Since we're all saved in the same way, what's the point in discussing anything beyond that? Because, it can make people unnecessarily uncomfortable to think that there's anything TO the walk of faith besides... "belief". And, really, we could go so far as to ask why not just have one big happy family forum here at CF for anyone who claims to have a personal relationship with G-d through Jesus and forget about the unimportant differences that only tend to divide, separate, and turn people off anyway, and make them feel like "outsiders" on the different fora. I am not being much flippant -- I'm quite serious; my questions are borne out of seeing the assumptions and accusations, and hypocrisy coming out in some posters' comments here the last little while, which are making me sick at heart, to say the least.


Maybe let me just end with this:
1) my experience in this MJ forum is that those who are truly drawn here by G-d are not so easily put off by differences in terminology, unique phrases and the different theological views and stands of MJ's who post here. And if they are easily put off, I suspect G-d is able to still bring them where He wants them in His own way and in the right timing -- even back here to discuss with we awful people who might practice our faith very differently and commincate it in ways different from theirs. We can trust G-d's Spirit with His own. Those who ARE being drawn by G-d here usually will take the time to politely post and ask what people mean when they use the term "Torah-Observance", or write "G-d", etc., and more than a few stick around to discuss and learn as they will, whatever they will, fellowship some, and bring vibrant discussions into the forum.

2) this is the Messianic Judaism forum, not merely another non-denomination-of-Christianity forum, here. We are bound to have discussions which confuse and cause discomfort to those who are not MJ's but come in to read and hopefully ask questions and fellowship -- just like people in nearly ALL of the "denominational" forums are bound to do so. Would you say that Catholics in their own forum shouldn't use unique-to-Catholicism-etc. terms such as Transubstantiation, because people will visit their forum and say, "wow, I don't know that word, ew they do things I don't understand -- well it's too much for me, Dude... I'm outta here!" ? Would you presume to accuse Catholics of specifically "wearing the Eucharist on their sleeve" as though it is some kind of ego-trip, if they merely discuss issues of Catholic doctrines and dogmae surrounding their sacrament of Communion, in their own forum, which is right where they should be able to do so?

3) Just because we discuss together, here in the ONE place that is appropriate at CF for us to do so with other Messianics, the ins and outs of Torah issues -- just because we (some of us) are interested in varying degrees of Judaism, Jewish Halakha and the writings, etc., and in discussing together how it is we can and may express our faith in Messiah in connection with such -- and just because we use the terms Torah-Observing/Torah-Validating/Torah-Embracing/Torah-Living/Torah-Loving-- whatever -- or any other term we might choose to try to express our position of Torah-respect-as-the-path-we-seek-to-follow-as-believers... just because any and all of these might be true, that absolutely does not remotely automatically mean that we are "wearing Torah-Observance on our sleeves" or embrace "Torah-Observance" in order to feel "more righteous" than other believers. Not at all.


Wow, maybe all discussions of Torah-observance should be in the Halakhic discussion subforum, and that forum should be password-protected, and everyone should have to request access so there may never be a risk that anyone might accidentally read about Torah-observance by believers and find themselves offended over Torah, or risk reading comments by people on this forum who actually believe G-d expects us to do and not do certain things in this life of faith, or be put off by our desire to grow in Torah-obedience (NOT AS A WAY OF BEING "BETTER" THAN ANYONE ELSE or MORE "RIGHTEOUS" -- BUT AS A WAY OF BEING OBEDIENT CHILDREN OF THE HOME, WHICH IS DANG-STRAIGHT THE VERY LEAST WE CAN DO OUT OF LOVE FOR HIM WHO BOUGHT US WITH HIS BLOOD). Yes, what a terrible offense the Word of G-d is. And, I suppose it's even more offensive to know there are people "out there" in the world who want to follow it ( :confused: :doh: are you getting my point here? It's not making any sense to me just why you feel we need to restrict/seriously limit/stop posting on issues of Torah-Obedience here, because of the risk that people may not understand -- Yod, if we don't post about such things, how can we hope to explain so they might understand and see us for who we truly are and what we truly believe/practice and why. On top of that, :idea: frankly I am not terribly concerned if a word I choose to use to describe MY own faith walk is misunderstood by OTHERS online who can either ask me about it or learn my definition of that word by reading what I write, if they care to know. You say we should just let people see we are different (and *I* assume, this being a forum board, they would see that by what we post and discuss about) and then they can ask us about the differences they see, but on the other hand you say we shouldn't discuss issues of Torah-observance or call ourselves "Torah-observant" because they may misunderstand. :sigh: It makes no sense to me. And, what about the fact that so many of us have nowhere else to discuss such things with other like-minded believers, except online on forum boards like this one? Where do you suggest we ask our questions, share our thoughts and discuss these issues if not here in the Messianic "JUDAISM" forum?

And, yep, I am long-winded. Sorry. Vision said most of this and far more concisely:

For those who are going to oppose, there is no good approach. For those who are lead, this is all good news.

Precisely.

[koilias]

You really need to stop recommending such expensive books. :D
(I now have a copy on order ;))

He...you're going to make me feel guilty for your entire library, aren't you?:)

Don't worry, this one is worth it. It is a gorgeous book. It showed me just how boring we've made the Bible today...ancient Jews approached it very differently.

[insaneinthebrain]

He...you're going to make me feel guilty for your entire library, aren't you?:)
I'm gonna try! :P
Don't worry, this one is worth it. It is a gorgeous book. It showed me just how boring we've made the Bible today...ancient Jews approached it very differently.
Well, the fact that it was over 1,000 pages seemed to justify the cost. I also could've gone with the abbreviated version that leaves out all the additional readings, but I didn't. ;)

[Wags]

This isn't confined to just the Boards though. I'm speaking about calling ourselves "torah observant" in general. We say this on these boards because we started describing our congregations that way already.

Anyone who visits a messianic synagogue would know that we are different than your average church by the fact that our services are held on Shabbat.


Not all messianic congregation are torah observant. Went to one a few years ago during Passover - and they were serving a beautful Challah at oneg, oh yeah, and then there was the crock pot full of pork & beans. :eek: (I'm not kidding!)

Using the term "torah obseverant" to describe a congregation lets others who may be anti-torah observance know that this isn't a place they want to be. Or to let people know to skip bringing pork chops to oneg.

And holding services on Shabbat does not make messianic congregations unique. There are Seventh-Day Adventists, Seventh-Day Bapists, Seventh-Day Church of God, Seventh-Day Menonites....etc.

Now if those messianic services are conducted in a fashion that would be familiar to most Jews, then yes it would be "unique" to christians.

**************************

oneg = meal or snack after services, often a potluck, although large (reform/conservative) congregations sometimes cater it.

challah - braided bread, very yummy, but has leaven in it so its not ok during the Passover/Unleavened bread.

[yod]

pork and beans in a messianic congregation???? :eek:


what planet are they on?:D

[Mikhail]

pork and beans in a messianic congregation???? :eek:


what planet are they on?:D

You think that is bad I was horrified last shabbat to see amongst the snacks at the after service tea and coffe.....Hot Cross buns aka leaven cakes to the queen of heaven!!! Oy I think I am the first Torah observant beleiver in this Messianic congregation typical of HaShem to use a gentile to bring Torah observance to a Messianic congregation..go figure.
Mikhail

[Wags]

pork and beans in a messianic congregation???? :eek:


what planet are they on?:D


Since I've heard many similar stories - I think they are on plant "we are interested in hebrew roots, so lets slap a messianic label on ourselves, even if we have no idea what that really means".

They were still following the general "church" teachings that we are "free from the law" so we don't have to keep kosher. All this while wearing a tallit and kippah.

This is not directed at anyone in particular here - but we have christians that do the same thing in this forum, they are interested in hebrew roots so take on the scroll icon to describe themselves and then staunchly defend the anti-torah point of view. All the while claiming to be messianic. :scratch:

Oh and here's a thought - do you realize that should another holocaust type event occur, if you are torah observant, you will be taken too, regardless of what your genetics are. Are you willing to dedicate yourself to being obiedent to HaShem's Torah even to the point of imprisonment or death? Or are you just interested in learning "neat background stuff" about the New Testament?

[debi b]

Oh and here's a thought - do you realize that should another holocaust type event occur, if you are torah observant, you will be taken too, regardless of what your genetics are. Are you willing to dedicate yourself to being obiedent to HaShem's Torah even to the point of imprisonment or death?

My husband and I have had this same thought ;)

[yod]

If it ever gets that bad here in America, there is plenty of ways to investigate what a person has said or believes. Pro-Israel churches with many non-observant "pagans" will be standing with us. Not all of them but there will be many. All the more reason to accept them, imo.

[Wags]

If it ever gets that bad here in America, there is plenty of ways to investigate what a person has said or believes. Pro-Israel churches with many non-observant "pagans" will be standing with us. Not all of them but there will be many. All the more reason to accept them, imo.

You sure seem attached to the word "pagan"

If you think we are some how protected because we live in the USA then you are really fooling yourself. Pro-Israel churches can and do turn against Israel all the time. And some, like Luther, get bent out of shape when the Jews don't do what they want, and then decide that they all should be wiped out or forcibly converted.

[Child of the Most High]

Hey Yod :wave:

Howya doin? Or for those who like the Hebrew flavor..ma chadash?

[visionary]

You sure seem attached to the word "pagan"

If you think we are some how protected because we live in the USA then you are really fooling yourself. Pro-Israel churches can and do turn against Israel all the time. And some, like Luther, get bent out of shape when the Jews don't do what they want, and then decide that they all should be wiped out or forcibly converted.Both statements are true...and we will not be able to distinguish who is who...If it ever gets that bad here in America, there is plenty of ways to investigate what a person has said or believes. Pro-Israel churches with many non-observant "pagans" will be standing with us. Not all of them but there will be many. All the more reason to accept them, imo. until the time comes...We are to not jump to conclusions before it is time....Let's get back to the OP...Yeshua gave us Judiasm...because this line of thinking has just been circled and any more circles will not change it...

[ShirChadash]

Last *bump* for today. Unless I find more... ^_^ :sorry: :holy:

ETA a comment...

I absolutely reject the notion that a person is automatically "Torah-Observant" and living a "Torah-Observant life" if they express a "belief" in Y'shua. Torah is action. Observance is action. Torah embracing and observance (action) is, for some people here, part of the action-into-life of our faithing/Trusting/belonging in Him.

Being "Torah-Observant", in my humble opinion (which counts for no one but myself), includes and is not limited to choosing to accept that the Torah commandments of G-d -- all of them which are found in the TaNaKh/"Older" testimony, and the Ketuvim Natzrim/B'rit Chadasha/"Newer" testimony, and of which I am able to obey today as an individual, a woman, a non-Israeli -- as binding over my life as a pleasing lifestyle my G-d handed down for me to follow. Do I break Torah commands? Of course, I fall, I fail, Abba picks me up and loves me regardless, I repent and am neither destroyed nor often daunted by my inability to perfectly obey; and He sets me on the path of Torah-observing once again, Himself, kisses my forehead and holds my hand like the Perfect Father He is, helping this toddler to learn to walk steady again.

I do not find any validity whatever in the idea that one is living a "Torah-Observant" life by/in/through nothing more than being a believer in G-d through His Son, Y'shua. And I imagine this indeed IS the difference between being Messianic and falling under any "Christian" denomination. If I didn't believe that all of G-d's Word that can be applied may and should be by me (as I grow) in my faith-walk, I could have simply stayed in any and every church of which I have been a congregant/parishoner instead of having to seek out a very different kind of community in order to find others who believe and practice as I do.

Just clarifying my stand. And I would appreciate not being jumped on for it.

[visionary]

I am with you.

[koilias]

Hey Yod :wave:

Howya doin? Or for those who like the Hebrew flavor..ma chadash?

Hiyya CMH...yesh yom holedet meyuHad hayom...mishehu "insane" ba'kahal hazo...;)

Mazal Tov Justin!:) :)

[MyLittleWonders]

I am with you.

Me too! :amen: