The Kosher Dilemma

[Sephania]

I have browsed through the threads I have found on these forums and in particular here on eating Kosher and have come to the conclusion that some are still very confused as to what Kosher is or if they are leading a Kosher lifestyle.



Now since I was not raised Jewish (but am) Kosher to me is by Torah Kosher, or as I have seen some call it, “Biblical Kosher”, as opposed to “Rabbinical Kosher”. But I have seen on this forum those who say that they have been eating Kosher for over 5 years, yet they say that they eat seafood. We have just been learning about this in the past few years and since Passover is fast approaching and we are called to "get rid of all Chametz" then I feel distinctions are in order, for understanding, clarification, and to keep others from being lead astray.



I understand those that don't feel that they need to follow the "law" but to pick and choose and claim to is deceitful, not only to others, but to oneself as well as HaShem.

I was reading one thread and it mentioned the abomination of Antiochus with the sacrificing of a pig on the Altar in the Temple. It made think that if we do eat pig, or lobster, etc, that we are in essence doing a very similar is not the same thing. After all what was his reasoning?



Sorry to babble on, just trying to get out some thoughts and waiting to hear about yours. I am sure that Henaynei will have something interesting to share.

[Henaynei]

I have browsed through the threads I have found on these forums and in particular here on eating Kosher and have come to the conclusion that some are still very confused as to what Kosher is or if they are leading a Kosher lifestyle.

Now since I was not raised Jewish (but am) Kosher to me is by Torah Kosher, or as I have seen some call it, “Biblical Kosher”, as opposed to “Rabbinical Kosher”. But I have seen on this forum those who say that they have been eating Kosher for over 5 years, yet they say that they eat seafood. We have just been learning about this in the past few years and since Passover is fast approaching and we are called to "get rid of all Chametz" then I feel distinctions are in order, for understanding, clarification, and to keep others from being lead astray.

I understand those that don't feel that they need to follow the "law" but to pick and choose and claim to is deceitful, not only to others, but to oneself as well as HaShem.

I was reading one thread and it mentioned the abomination of Antiochus with the sacrificing of a pig on the Altar in the Temple. It made think that if we do eat pig, or lobster, etc, that we are in essence doing a very similar is not the same thing. After all what was his reasoning?

Sorry to babble on, just trying to get out some thoughts and waiting to hear about yours. I am sure that Henaynei will have something interesting to share.



In my home and life we are growing in keeping rabbinic Kashrut - for us it has been a long and injury fraught journey.



We began some 16 years ago meeting with members of our shul after the Friday night service at the local Denny's and asking that the waitress make sure there was no bacon on our All American Cheeseburger - and being flame-broiled by other members of the shul across the table with scorching "WHAT!!! Are YOU saying *I* should not eat bacon!!!!!!!!!" Of course we had said nothing of the sort, but that was the proverbial "shot heard 'round the Torah." As we grew we encountered the same thing. And we did grow/are growing. As all good Jews we love Chinese and found a comfortable way to eat at the local Chinese buffet and keep "biblically kosher."



We were rather good apologists for the principles of "biblical" kashrut. Until one evening when we realized we could taste the pork even in the "kosher" foods - from the lovely fried mushrooms to the vegetable fried rice. And it started our thinker thinking. After a couple more times of that, trying HARD to tell ourselves that it was our imagination or was just a fluke of that particular night or restaurant, we finally had to admit that we no longer could eat Chinese until we found a kosher Chinese place (we eventually did find several - in Boca Raton, some 5 hours drive away - been there twice and it was wonderful!!).



Then I started "kashering" the beef and chicken I got at the local grocery. I told myself I could not afford truly kosher meat and that this was fine. But in my heart I knew things like: when you buy chicken parts in the store they quite often come from chickens whose other "parts" did not pass inspection because of tumors or other blights; the ground beef often has pork and even horse meat in it because of unethical practices and the fact that they do mot clean the grinder between differing runs - just "now we've finished the pork, let's do the beef;" and that the preferred killing method for chickens in some parts of the industry is strangulation (see Acts 15). BUT, I could not afford kosher and I was getting out as much blood as I could by trying to "kasher" them myself.



But eventually my Christian/free to be me resistance wore thin in the face of my Torah and Judaism studies. Even at this level people in the shul had taken to saying things like "your are so orthodox it is scary" - and THAT scared me - for I *KNEW* by then just how very FAR from anything related to orthodox we were and that someone in the MJ movement (actually in leadership) would think we were even close to orthodox, much less so orthodox it was scary, was VERY frightening.



In the last few years we have been learning and growing. Mine is NOT a kosher home but by the standards of any messy in the area we are shomer kashrut. Again, very sad :( where are the people from which I can learn?? I study books and commentaries and search the web and learn all I can.....



At this point it has been several years since we have bought anything from the store that is not kosher - including our meats. We just eat a lot less meat than we used to do. (Well, not now, we eat more because we are doing Atkins!! OIY!! The kosher butcher in St. Pete thinks I'm his best friend!!!) We do not eat milk and meat together, but since we have no rabbi to follow we are still working out the time frames as we grow. I have separate frying pans for milk and meat, but nothing else - just steel pots and aluminum pans that I wash thoroughly. I only have one dishwasher so I am not separating there either - but we have finally made the separations in the refrigerator - Pareve on the top 2 shelves, meat on the next, dairy on the last and veggies in the hydrators. The logic to this is this: things travel/drip down so... Pareve will not ruin the meat, meat will ruin the dairy but the dairy is cheaper and easier to replace than the dairy and dairy veggies are ok - just don't eat them with meat (all this is precaution should there be a spill or the electricity goes off - my large freezer is set up the same way).



All my dinnerware is glass/Corelle and my flatware is one piece metal without deep decorations all to facilitate the full removal of food materials in the wash.



So you can see we are nowhere near the goal, but we continue to move diligently in that direction. We still receive castigations from members of the Messianic community, but gratefully I have heard that in the last year more have taken to the "road" toward Rabbinic Kashrut - 5000 years of Rabbis and billions of Jews can't be THAT wrong :)

[Sephania]

Thank you for sharing all that Henaynei, that sure is a lot to digest for me right now ;)

[Henaynei]

digest - kosher - eating - Gawfaw!! LOL!! ;)

[simchat_torah]

Actually, if you use 'stone' pots and pans then you don't have to have seperate dishes. So, one thing my wife and I did was make sure to purchase Hard Annodized cookware. Hard Annodized cookware is specifically granted 'stone' status by the Orthodox Rabbinical council. According to the Talmud certain food substances can transfer via metal and wood, but not via stone. Science has since proven this to be correct, as particular strands of bacteria grow and spread more easily on wood and metal surfaces, while these same strands will die out much more quickly on stone surfaces.

Hard Annodized cookware undergoes a process where cermaic materials are ground up and melted onto the surface of metals, and it becomes a nice slick surface that will last you more than 10 x's longer than Teflan. You simply rub in certain types of oil (I think that olive oil is reccomended) and the surface will forevermore be 'non-stick'. All the famous chef's use Hard Annodized pots and pans. Typically, they are rather expensive, but if you have a membership at SAM's then you can pick up an entire set (14 pieces all together I think) for around $120. This is an amazing deal considering I've seen individual skillets go for over $200 before! I have this very set and I highly reccomend it, it is a SAM's Club brand called 'Member's Mark'... very nice, with stainless steel handles.

Well, you might think it is silly that I know all this, but I tend to do all the cooking in our house ;) I have always loved cooking, its so soothing and fun. So, I have taken it upon myself to learn and study how to keep a kosher kitchen. I still have a long ways to go in actually implementing much of this, but I think I can do it. :)

Well, I hope this helps.

Shalom,
yafet

[Henaynei]

Actually, if you use 'stone' pots and pans then you don't have to have seperate dishes. So, one thing my wife and I did was make sure to purchase Hard Annodized cookware. Hard Annodized cookware is specifically granted 'stone' status by the Orthodox Rabbinical council. According to the Talmud certain food substances can transfer via metal and wood, but not via stone. Science has since proven this to be correct, as particular strands of bacteria grow and spread more easily on wood and metal surfaces, while these same strands will die out much more quickly on stone surfaces.

Shalom,
yafet
Thanks for the info Yafet :) :) That is truly interesting!

I would caution folks that the term "stone" can be mis-leading. While the cookware Yafet describes has gone through a very special process - actual stoneware is very "porous" and definately NOT to be used for both milk and meat if you are keeping that level of Kosher. That would include terracotta pots and earthenware mugs and the like. Even marble and granite are considered porous and you must have separate cutting areas for milk and meat.

Yafet - can you help?? I have tried to find some links on the web about the Hard-Anodized cookware and kashrut, with some frustration. Could you post a link with info - pretty please?? ;)

[Disciple 3]

Well my brothers and sisters, I know this is a major dilema for many Messianics and I really think that scripture clarifies this question.

Acts 10:9-16 "The next day, as they were on their journey and coming near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour. And he became hungry and desired something to eat; but while they were preparing it, he fell into a trance and saw the heaven opened, and something descending, like a great sheet, let down by four corners upon the earth. In it were all kinds of animals and reptiles and birds of the air. And there came a voice to him, "Rise, Peter; kill and eat." But Peter said, "No, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean." And the voice came to him again a second time, "What God has cleansed, you must not call common." This happened three times, and the thing was taken up at once to heaven."

I hope that this has helped clarify. :)

[iitb]

Well my brothers and sisters, I know this is a major dilema for many Messianics and I really think that scripture clarifies this question.

Acts 10:9-16 "The next day, as they were on their journey and coming near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour. And he became hungry and desired something to eat; but while they were preparing it, he fell into a trance and saw the heaven opened, and something descending, like a great sheet, let down by four corners upon the earth. In it were all kinds of animals and reptiles and birds of the air. And there came a voice to him, "Rise, Peter; kill and eat." But Peter said, "No, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean." And the voice came to him again a second time, "What God has cleansed, you must not call common." This happened three times, and the thing was taken up at once to heaven."

I hope that this has helped clarify. :)
#1 That vision had to do with gentiles, not food. You should check out the thread entitled "Acts 10 Controversy" that's floating around here somewhere.

#2 Since you aren't Messianic, you aren't allowed to debate in this forum. I would ask that you familiarize yourself with our forum-specific rules before posting any further here. :)

[Disciple 3]

Sorry if I wasn't supposed to post here. :sorry:

[simchat_torah]

I'm not totally sure where to begin looking on the internet Henaynei. However, I can tell you someone to contact who would be extremely knowledgeable in this arena... Dr. Charlesworth at Princeton. He teaches many classes on the Dead Sea Scrolls, the essenes, deuterocannonical time period, etc. He also teaches at Hebrew University during the summers I believe. He is the world's foremost scholar on the Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS), is the top translator for the DSS project, and has written many books on the subject.

Anyway, he himself has a small collection of first century stone pots (and various other cookware). Oddly enough, although wood was more attractive, because stone cookware did not carry 'unkosher' properties, it was much more expensive to purchase. Thus, the average Jewish commoner would not have been able to afford stoneware and most people owned two sets of wooden dishes, etc. Typically, only the wealthier stratus of Jews had the stoneware dish sets.

Anyway, I'm sure if you look up Princeton on the internet you could easily find Dr. Charlesworth's email address. He would be a great person to turn to for Rabbinical commentary on the subject.

Other than that, I'm not quite sure where to start for internet searches.

I hope this helps.
shalom,
yafet

[simchat_torah]

That vision had to do with gentiles, not food.But Justin, maybe the sheet represented milk because it was white and the animals represented meat? And since the animals were lowered on the sheet this means we can mix milk and meat?

Maybe the sheet represents flour (because it's white) and the animals represent automobiles (because we ride animals)... which was prophetic that we should not bake bread with our car engine while driving?

Maybe the sheet represented sleep (because you sleep on a sheet) and the animals represented a litter box (hey, animals use those ;) ) meaning we can sleep in litter boxes?

.........


or better yet... instead of creating endless, meaningless, and pointless interpretations I could accept what G-d stated at face value and the meaning of the dream was concerning the gentiles.

*shrug*

Then again, I'm sure I could think of a dozen or so fun interpretations to Peter's dream. What do you think ;)

[Henaynei]

But Justin, maybe the sheet represented milk because it was white and the animals represented meat? And since the animals were lowered on the sheet this means we can mix milk and meat?

Maybe the sheet represents flour (because it's white) and the animals represent automobiles (because we ride animals)... which was prophetic that we should not bake bread with our car engine while driving?

Maybe the sheet represented sleep (because you sleep on a sheet) and the animals represented a litter box (hey, animals use those ;) ) meaning we can sleep in litter boxes?
.........

or better yet... instead of creating endless, meaningless, and pointless interpretations I could accept what G-d stated at face value and the meaning of the dream was concerning the gentiles.

*shrug*

Then again, I'm sure I could think of a dozen or so fun interpretations to Peter's dream. What do you think ;)
LOL - *I* think Yafet has missed WAY too much sleep!!! http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/3/3_4_14.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001)