A Messianic Discussion of Mark

[iitb]

Before starting, I'm going to lay down a couple of ground rules. Being that I'd like this to be a Messianic/Jewish take on the gospel of Mark:

1) I'd like to ask that our Christian friends limit themselves to asking questions only. I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but this is the messianic forum, after all. ;)

2) For our non-messianic Jewish participants, you may also feel free to ask questions. If you have anything to add to the Jewish context of the discussion, feel free to throw that in as well. However, keep in mind that you aren't allowed to debate here.

3) Attempts to derail this thread will be met with some rather strong-handed moderation. Consider yourself warned.

Again, I'm not trying to be mean or to chase anyone away, I just want to make sure this discussion stays on track. :)

I'm calling this a discussion instead of a study simply because it'll have no leader. I'm just going to throw out a chapter and let the discussion commence. Kind of like throwing one piece of meat to a bunch of hungry dogs. :D

I'm going to post the NASB translation because, well, I like that one. ;) Should you care to check out another translation, you can do so at www.blueletterbible.org (http://www.blueletterbible.org/), or www.biblegateway.com (http://www.biblegateway.com/). I prefer the former.

Now, let's kick it off with chapter one:

1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, (1 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=mark&version=NASB#crossref_305023583_1)) the Son of God.
2 As it is written in Isaiah the prophet:
"BEHOLD, I SEND MY MESSENGER AHEAD OF YOU,
WHO WILL PREPARE YOUR WAY;
3
THE VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS,
'MAKE READY THE WAY OF THE LORD,
MAKE HIS PATHS STRAIGHT.'"
4 John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
5 And all the country of Judea was going out to him, and all the people of Jerusalem; and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins.
6 John was clothed with camel's hair and wore a leather belt around his waist, and his diet was locusts and wild honey.
7 And he was preaching, and saying, "After me One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to stoop down and untie the thong of His sandals.
8 "I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."
9 In those days Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.
10 Immediately coming up out of the water, He saw the heavens opening, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon Him;
11 and a voice came out of the heavens: "You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased."
12 Immediately the Spirit impelled Him to go out into the wilderness.
13 And He was in the wilderness forty days being tempted by Satan; and He was with the wild beasts, and the angels were ministering to Him.
14 Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God,
15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."
16 As He was going along by the Sea of Galilee, He saw Simon and Andrew, the brother of Simon, casting a net in the sea; for they were fishermen.
17 And Jesus said to them, "Follow Me, and I will make you become fishers of men."
18 Immediately they left their nets and followed Him.
19 Going on a little farther, He saw James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, who were also in the boat mending the nets.
20 Immediately He called them; and they left their father Zebedee in the boat with the hired servants, and went away to follow Him.
21 They went into Capernaum; and immediately on the Sabbath He entered the synagogue and began to teach.
22 They were amazed at His teaching; for He was teaching them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
23 Just then there was a man in their synagogue with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,
24 saying, "What business do we have with each other, Jesus of Nazareth? Have You come to destroy us? I know who You are-- the Holy One of God!"
25 And Jesus rebuked him, saying, "Be quiet, and come out of him!"
26 Throwing him into convulsions, the unclean spirit cried out with a loud voice and came out of him.
27 They were all amazed, so that they debated among themselves, saying, "What is this? A new teaching with authority! He commands even the unclean spirits, and they obey Him."
28 Immediately the news about Him spread everywhere into all the surrounding district of Galilee.
29 And immediately after they came out of the synagogue, they came into the house of Simon and Andrew, with James and John.
30 Now Simon's mother-in-law was lying sick with a fever; and immediately they spoke to Jesus about her.
31 And He came to her and raised her up, taking her by the hand, and the fever left her, and she waited on them.
32 When evening came, after the sun had set, they began bringing to Him all who were ill and those who were demon-possessed.
33 And the whole city had gathered at the door.
34 And He healed many who were ill with various diseases, and cast out many demons; and He was not permitting the demons to speak, because they knew who He was.
35 In the early morning, while it was still dark, Jesus got up, left the house, and went away to a secluded place, and was praying there.
36 Simon and his companions searched for Him;
37 they found Him, and said to Him, "Everyone is looking for You."
38 He said to them, "Let us go somewhere else to the towns nearby, so that I may preach there also; for that is what I came for."
39 And He went into their synagogues throughout all Galilee, preaching and casting out the demons.
40 And a leper came to Jesus, beseeching Him and falling on his knees before Him, and saying, "If You are willing, You can make me clean."
41 Moved with compassion, Jesus stretched out His hand and touched him, and said to him, "I am willing; be cleansed."
42 Immediately the leprosy left him and he was cleansed.
43 And He sternly warned him and immediately sent him away,
44 and He said to him, "See that you say nothing to anyone; but go, show yourself to the priest and offer for your cleansing what Moses commanded, as a testimony to them."
45 But he went out and began to proclaim it freely and to spread the news around, to such an extent that Jesus could no longer publicly enter a city, but stayed out in unpopulated areas; and they were coming to Him from everywhere

[iitb]

A couple of discussion questions to get us going:

1) Is John Elijah?

2) Verses 14 & 15 say, "Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of G-d,and saying, 'The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of G-d is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.'" From this, I have 2 questions:

A) Most Christians teach that the "Gospel" is defined as Y'shua dying for our sins. However, he's very much alive here, and for him to go around saying, "I'm going to die for your sins," would only convince people that he was crazy. So I ask, what is "the gospel?"

B) "...the kingdom of G-d is at hand...." What is the kingdom of G-d?

[koilias]

A couple of discussion questions to get us going:

1) Is John Elijah?

2) Verses 14 & 15 say, "Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of G-d,and saying, 'The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of G-d is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.'" From this, I have 2 questions:

A) Most Christians teach that the "Gospel" is defined as Y'shua dying for our sins. However, he's very much alive here, and for him to go around saying, "I'm going to die for your sins," would only convince people that he was crazy. So I ask, what is "the gospel?"

B) "...the kingdom of G-d is at hand...." What is the kingdom of G-d?Ha! Justin, each ? could be a whole seperate thread.:)

To begin answering #2. Mark is very sharp here to draw in as best he can subtle hints to Hosea...Every one should take a moment here and reread Hosea (chps. 1&2) , the beautiful story of HaShem courting his repentant 'Am in the wilderness.

Notice what parts of the gospel story Markus leaves out (the temptation exchange with ha'satan, the discussion between Yohannan and the Pharisees, the Sermon on the Mount, the reading of Isaiah in Natzeret, etc) and condenses the main story (he assumes everyone is familiar with it) so as not to disturb his audience's thoughts from concentrating on Hosea and all the allusions of the very first courting in the wilderness...the "going out" from Mitzraim.

Notice these things:

1) All of Judea was "going out" (exodus) to Yeshua in the wilderness (the unpopulated areas)...HaShem is re-courting his people, it is He that is returning as much as they that are "returning" (T'shuvah) to Him. This is the Kingdom of HaShem! This is the "good news"--that HaShem is courting His people again! Isaiah 61:1 would also be on everyone's minds as they hear Yeshua preaching. Markus is very insistent that the courting is done in the wilderness, unlike the other writers...it is how he sees the manisfestation of the Kingdom: the bethrothal in the wilderness.

2) HaShem is returning as a "husband" Ishi and not as a "lord" Ba'ali (Hosea 2:16). It is the unclean spirits who keep calling Yeshua "Holy One of G-d" (K'dosh ha'Elohim). It says in Hosea: "You will no longer call me Ba'ali, I will remove the names of ba'al from (your) mouth". You shall now call HaShem by titles of intimacy instead of titles of separation.

3) The Kingdom is a physical manifestation of a miraculous kind. It comes with signs and the greatest of all the "signs" is Yeshua's teaching, in Hebrew: "his Torah". Everyone is asking "What is this?" , i.e. "Mah na?--manna"! "Mah na?--What is it? A NEW TORAH with authority!!" (verse 27).

4) The demons represent Egyptians to Markus (this will later be shown better), for they were saying to Yeshua, "What's between you and us, Yeshua haNotzri??? Have you come to destroy us!" This is a reference to Exodus 10.7: "Pharaoh's servants said to him, 'How long will this man be a snare to us? Let the men go, that they may serve Adonai their G-d. Do you realize that Egypt is destroyed?' " Yeshua is kicking the Egyptians out of Israel!

5) Notice that only Markus takes out the discussion between Yeshua and hasatan and replaces it with an allusion to Hosea: "he was with the wild beasts and the angels were ministering to him." (see Hos. 2.18: "In that day I will also make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, the birds of the sky, etc."). Yeshua is protected from the beasts. He represents Israel. He is in an "exodus" and HaShem has him tested to see if he has any ba'al on his lips. This is how he gets his "New Torah" for forty days, it is a Torah of the heart ("lovingkindness, truth and knowledge", Hesed v'emet v'da'at, Hos. 4.1, which mean together "undying devotion"), and then all Judea, in turn, gets this "Torah of the heart" from him!

[Hix]

An Interesting Question number 2(A) there Justin, what did both John and Yeshua mean when they spoke of the gospel and to follow it, when Yeshua was alive? I think actually the answer interestingly enough can be found in the Talmud. Fast forward back many hundred years and youl get to the time of Ezra, he was suceeded as the High Priest by a man called Shimon HaTzaddik (Simon the Just) and also, as Ezra, enjoyed a strong relationship with HaShem as did the people under him. However after he died the Talmud records in Tractate Yoma 9b that there was a major spiritual depression amongst the people, so bad in fact that the signs originally thought to mean that HaShem had accepted sacrifices stopped occuring.
The Talmud shows that from 200 years previous, to the time of Yeshua the people lived in animosity for each other, they stole and held their neighbours in low regard and fought and murdered etc. This hit an all time low somewere near the start of Yeshua's teaching.

So The Gospel, at least I believe was what John defined as "making ready the ways of the L-rd" or in other words, returning to G-d and following his law again that they had all but abandoned. Yeshua is said here in verse 14 to be "preaching the gospel of G-d" well what is the gospel of G-d? At this point nothing has been mentioned so to learn what G-ds gospel is we must take a look at what we already have and that is the Tanach (OT):

Deuteronomy 30:19-20 - I call heaven and earth as witnesses! Before you I have placed life and death, the blessing and the curse. Choose life! So that you and your seed will survive. If you choose to love Hashem your G-d and obey Him, and to attach yourself to Him. This is the sole means of survival and long life when you dwell in the land that G-d swore to your fathers…

2 Kings 17:37 And the statutes, and the ordinances, and the law, and the commandment, which He wrote for you, ye shall observe to do for evermore; and ye shall not fear other gods.

Yeshua, the Moshiach, the living Torah came with a message to those that were lost to return to the L-rd their G-d and follow his word. And this message unlike the times it was previously repeated was for both Jew and Gentile alike. If you follow G-d you too can enjoy a relationship with him.

Or at least, thats what I think it means. Il wait for someone knowlegable to give a much better answer than I :)
Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[koilias]

I agree with Hix; Mark ch. 1 is showing us here a Jewish revival, Torah practiced in the heart, a renewal covenant, a Hasidic movement.

Still it claimed an even more priviliged relationship with HaShem than previously. This too is taught in the Talmud. For the Rabbis are granted a greater authority than the prophets (the least in the Kingdom of HaShem are greater even than Yohannan who came in the spirit of Eliyahu).

[koilias]

Demons=Egyptians, another observation:

When Yeshua commands the demons to leave, they "cry out with a loud voice". It recalls the "great cry" the Egyptians gave at midnight.

The signs being manifested at "evening" and "morning" are also quite intentional allusions to Exodus, those times usually manifesting the portents, miraculous provisions, and signs of HaShem's power (e.g. the quail and the manna).

The healings have very loaded meanings directly related to the Exodus:

"IF YOU WILL GIVE EARNEST HEED TO THE VOICE OF ADONAI THY G-D, AND DO WHAT IS RIGHT IN HIS SIGHT, AND GIVE EAR TO HIS COMMANDMENTS, AND KEEP ALL HIS STATUTES, I WILL PUT NONE OF THE DISEASES ON YOU WHICH I HAVE PUT ON THE EGYPTIANS; FOR I, ADONAI, AM YOUR HEALER." (Exodus 15.26).

Note the healing of the leper--the Egyptian priests were stricken with such a skin-disease during the plagues, making them unclean and unfit for their duty.

[INOrder]

hello all,

I would like to take the liberty of disregarding the questions asked.

But I would like to begin from verse 1.

I will inform the readers that I will go off into a side bar to explain a little background.
So here we begin with my Jewish view of the reading, inspired by Sojeru and Koilias:
But I will present Mark in the literal rather than what it is suggested to be as the Parable and Mystical.
I believe that if these men were trained correctly they would write their books exclusively in one form. And so far the only person I have seen to present any of the books exclusively in a certain form of writing of Sojeru found in his list and so I lean more toward his interpretation for the moment.

v. 1 “The beginning of the gospel of Jesus the Christ, the son of G-d.”
v. 2 “As it is written in the Prophets, Behold I send my messenger before your face, which will prepare the way before you."

It was the custom in ancient libraries to recognise the title and contents of a book by the first few words of that book at the beginning of said scroll. Therefore vv.1-2 describe to any ancient Librarian the title of the book and a small description of its contents. It is my hope that this technique will become clearer after we make sense of every word contained in these two initial verses.

III. MARK 1:1
(Arkhi) - this Greek term corresponds to the Hebrew term “Resheet,” meaning “chief part”
as in:
“Yir’at Adonai Resheet Da’at” (Mishle 1:7)
[i cannot get the greek font I use here to show so we will have to do without]
“The beginning (chief part) of knowledge is the reverential fear of Ha-Shem.” ](Septuagint – Proverbs 1:7)

The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (vol. II, p. 826) defines this term to mean “First,” “beginning,” “choicest,” “first/best of a group.” The same source continues stating:

“A feminine noun derived from the root “ROSH,” and appearing fifty times in nearly all parts of the OT. The primary meaning is “first” or “beginning” of a series. This term may refer to the initiation of a series of historical events (Gen.10:10; Jer. 26:1) but it also refers to a foundational or necessary condition as the reverence or fear of G-d (Ps. 11:10; Prov.1:7) and the initiation, as opposed to the results, of a life (Job 8:7; 42:12). It is used frequently in the special sense of the choicest or best of a group or class of things, particularly in reference to items to be set aside for G-d’s service or sacrifice. The “first fruits” (Lev. 2:12; 23:10; Neh. 12:44) and “choicest” (Num. 18:12) fruits are so distinguished. Difficult usages of the term occur in several passages. In Deut. 33:21 the KJV reads “first part” which is followed by JPS, however the RSV, “best of the land” is preferred. In Dan.11:41 the KJV reads: “chief of the children of Ammon,” but the RSV reads “main part of the Ammonites.”

I propose that there was an original source containing most of the sayings and teachings of this man from Nazareth (moderns call it “Q”) most probably in oral form rather than in written form as was the custom at that time. From this rather large list of sayings and teachings Mark as the scribe of his master Peter chooses those teachings or occurrences that best fit his Mishnaic treatise which was issued for instructional purposes rather than a short biography of their Master, Jesus. It is in this vein that the author chooses the “chief” or “choicest” sayings and occurrences amongst many that best fit his intent – writing and instructional Mishnaic work, revolving around the life of and teachings of Jesus (The Written and Oral Torah made flesh – John 1:14).

(Tu Euageliou) – where “Tu” means “of the,” and “Euageliou” is translated as “Gospel.”

The definition that modern Christians usually provide for the term “Gospel” is as they say, encapsulated in the words of Paul:
“For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the Scriptures.” (1 Cor. 15:3-4)

In fact, Stern (1992, p. 485) echoing much of modern of evangelical theology writes concerning these two verses:

“The essence of the Gospel is contained in these two verses, as we shall see, but the key point for Jewish people to grasp and Messianic Jews to stress is that the Gospel is in accordance with what the Tanakh says (as Shaul himself emphasises by saying it twice). That is, every major point of the Good News set forth in the New Covenant with Israel is spoken of or prophesied in the Hebrew Scriptures.”

Whilst in some points Dr. Stern’s words are true, I am not here to debate but I do disagree with this “Christian” and rather foreign (from a Jewish perspective) interpretation, and rather propose a completely different and radical Judaic approach to the meaning of the term in question.


Most Christian Hebraists point to the Hebrew word “B’SORAH” as the equivalent term and original word from which it was translated to Greek as “EUANGELIOU.” However, those that have proposed and still propose this idea seem to be ignorant of the following difficulties.

1)The awkwardness of the term –
In commenting upon the term B’SORAH the Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, states:
“The root is a common one in Semitic, being found in Akkadian, Arabic Ugaritic, Ethiopian, etc. The root meaning is “to bring news especially pertaining to military encounters.” Normally this is good news, but (contra Friedrich, Theological Dictionary of The New Testament, vol. II, p. 707) it need not necessarily be so (I Sam. 4:7; II Sam. 18:20 where “TOV” is specifically appended). The Akkadian bears this out, for the word is largely neutral there."

In other words, the term “B’SORAH,” still to this very day means simply “NEWS” and one needs to specify by means of the addition of an adjective (good/bad) so that the other person may understand us.



2)The term lacks antecedent and cultural or contextual validity –
Whilst most terms utilised throughout the New Testament can be traced to and seen in use in Rabbinical literature of that period and after that period, the term “B’SORAH” lacks any use in a religious or legal sense by (in my assumption that these were Orthodox Jewish men) Jewish Orthodox Nazarenes pre 100 c.e. We do have terms like “justice,” “righteousness,” “born from above,” etc. etc. commonly used in Jewish religious and legal literature, but this is not the case with the term “B’sorah”.

This below is not meant to harass or belittle, so please do not take it in that form. This is only being stated to show the Rabbis intentiontions:

The Rabbis of the Talmud wanted to show the foreignness of Christianity and Christian teachings to normative Judaism, and Jewish culture/language (pre and post Christian) show this by employing a “pun” on the Greek term “EUANGELION.” The Greek word “EUANGELION” is transliterated to the Hebrew as “AVEN GILAYON” meaning “the falsehood of blank paper” (R. Meir) or AVON GILAYON” meaning “the sin of blank paper” (R. Yochanan) – see editorial footnotes on Shabbat 116a in the English translation of the Soncino Talmud (Epstein, 1987).

All Christian commentators in unison state that this shows but a malicious deed on the part of Jewish Rabbis against the so called “Jewish Christians” of that day. This is reflected in the rhetoric of Friedrich Kittel in his article in the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (Vol. 2, p. 726, 727), where he states:

“This seems to be contradicted by the fact that EUAGELION appears to be a loan-word introduced into Judaism to describe the New Testament Gospel. In Shab., 116a, we have the malicious conversion of Gospel into AVEN GILAYON, gloss of destruction, or AVON GILAYON, gloss of sins: “R. Meir (c. 150) called it (the book of the Minim, i.e. of Jewish Christians, and therefore the Gospels) AVEN GILAYON, gloss or writing of destruction, and R. Yochanan (c. 279) called it AVON GILAYON, gloss or writing of sins.” From this passage we may conclude that the Jewish Christians had adopted the Greek EUAGELION, since there is no real equivalent in Aramaic. The pun is possible only in respect of the Greek. On the other hand the passage does not prove what has been deduced from it. Palestinian Judaism was bilingual. Aramaic might be spoken, but Greek was understood. It was known that BESORAH would be EUANGELIUM in Greek. The Rabbinic propensity for puns enabled them to seize on the Greek word for BESORAH and to bring it into disrepute, thus making the hated heretics ridiculous.”

I will gather up some more information and be back later.
Thank you for allowing me to take part in this study

bye

[INOrder]

Hi Kolias,

I must say there is very much that I am learning about your Messiah here.
I am seeing so many authentically Jewish things about the New Testament.

I will have to admit, I believe Jesus to be one of the greatest of the Talmudic Masters, and this is seen well in the writing of his students.

By the teaching that I have recieved I know that 'Manna' is not what you think of it to be.

Manna is a symbol of the Amalekites, though it was an actual substance that sustained the Hebrews.
notice that in refference to:

HaMan (the manna) - Shemot 16:35, Bamidbar 11:6, 11:9, 20:10, Devarim 8:3, Yehoshua 5:12

Hamin (“from”) - Bamidbar 20:10

Hamin (“whence”) - 2 Melachim

Haman - Esther 3:1, 3:5, 3:6, 3:7, 3:8, 3:12, 4:7, 5:5, 5:9-12, 5:14, 6:5-7, …

Haman is found in the QUESTION, in Bereshit!

Now that we know that Haman is connected with the question regarding the Tree of the Knowledge of good and evil. The mystics call the Tree of the Knowledge of good and evil, “the tree of doubt”. Hebrew word for doubt (sufek) and Amalek share the same gematria, 240.

From the time that Adam ate from that tree, he had doubts, and HaShem manifested Himself with doubts. After all, why did HaShem have to “ask” where Adam was? It is a cardinal rule of our faith that HaShem knows everything there is no doubt.

So, Haman was “conceived” in the garden when Adam ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of good and evil. Haman “is” the gap between ourselves and HaShem. Haman, an Amalekite descendant of king Agag, is the epitome of the role of the Amalekites. The Amalekites represent the gap between us and HaShem.
And the amalekites did this well when The Jews left Egypt on their way to Sinai.

so when the Jews ate HaMan(the manna) they "devoured" it, nu?

So the Jews devoured Haman as they were commanded to- to devour the Amalekites.

bye

[INOrder]

I also realized that Rev 2:17 uses the phrase "hidden Manna"

Esther and Haman.
Esther means hidden

these people are fascinating, I will have to tell my Rabbi

bye

[koilias]

I also realized that Rev 2:17 uses the phrase "hidden Manna"

Esther and Haman.
Esther means hidden

these people are fascinating, I will have to tell my Rabbi

byeMany thanks INOrder for bringing up these thoughts! Your interpretation and hindsight will be invaluable as we progress on to a discussion of Yeshua's views regarding the Shabbat, later in the coming chapters. The discussion of the Shabbat, of course, is tied to Markus's discussion of manna. Philo points out that "manna" means Torah (teaching). And you are correct it is a symbol of knowledge.

Very nice link on "Hidden Manna". Although, I disagree that Markus has in mind those negative interpretations, they are nonetheless invaluable to ponder.

"Besorah" in Jewish Christian conception is tied to the concept of Yom Ratzon la-Adonai, the day or year of Adonai's favor (the Yuval)...based on a complex of associations coming from Isaiah 35, 58 and 61. Yeshua interpreted it as a news stated only in positive terms...a news of redemption, the "release of the captives", "bringing sight to the blind, making the lame leap like the hart, etc". Markus glosses over it, but Lukas does well to draw it out in Luke ch. 4, when Yeshua himself spells out what kind of news he means (he stops short of stating the negative news...inciting a riot).

[INOrder]

Hi Koilias,

I am going to be editing my comments concerning the Besorah on this page.
I will like to make a different thread concerning it so that we can continue in a continuous flowing of streams concerning the book of Mark.

So I will be back soon, and on there if you would like, we can discuss Besorah.
I would like to put this in the Jewish debates forum for we can discuss deeply with well regulations and rules.

Would you like this? and anyone else who has insight I also invite...all of you are welcome.

It will be up soon

Thank you
Bye

[iitb]

I think chapter one has been rather thoroughly analyzed. I'm really enjoying this, by the way.

Anyway, unless someone has something else to contribute about this chaper, I'll go ahead and put chapter 2 up sometime tomorrow morning. Probably about 12 hours or so from the time listed on this post. :)

[INOrder]

Personally, I think there is much more to expound on the first two verses...

If I may I will finish at least on those two and then you can move on?
And I thank you for your patience toward me and this topic.

I will be back later to add them

bye

[iitb]

Personally, I think there is much more to expound on the first two verses...

If I may I will finish at least on those two and then you can move on?
And I thank you for your patience toward me and this topic.

I will be back later to add them

byeNo problem. We don't have a time limit or anything, and I'd much rather have each chapter completely exhausted before moving on. ;)

[koilias]

INOrder please continue your discussion! I never thought of this before but your discussion has been very informative and made me realize that there is some kind of connection between Markus' beginning and Yohannan's prologue...maybe Markus is part of the Yohannic community or in that tradition of Passover homilies...Anybody have any thoughts?

[koilias]

I propose that there was an original source containing most of the sayings and teachings of this man from Nazareth (moderns call it “Q”) most probably in oral form rather than in written form as was the custom at that time. From this rather large list of sayings and teachings Mark as the scribe of his master Peter chooses those teachings or occurrences that best fit his Mishnaic treatise which was issued for instructional purposes rather than a short biography of their Master, Jesus. It is in this vein that the author chooses the “chief” or “choicest” sayings and occurrences amongst many that best fit his intent – writing and instructional Mishnaic work, revolving around the life of and teachings of Jesus (The Written and Oral Torah made flesh – John 1:14).


I agree wholeheartedly that Markus is choosing the "first" and choicest...So wonderful that a Jew can readily notice this, eh? And the gentile scholars don't realize it after several centuries of "higher criticism"....Irony of ironies...;)

Actually, INOrder, strictly speaking the source scholars call "Q" is a source separate from Mark. The material from "Q" is apparent when Mathew and Luke are unique from Mark. Also, many clues abound that there are textual sources. Although, yes, much of the oral tradition infuses all the writers....but most scholars say "Q" is a written source. Myself, I don't believe "Q" is just a "sayings source". I believe that it is a full gospel, written in Hebrew, and Mark is at least two redactive stages away from it.

[SpiritPsalmist]

I think chapter one has been rather thoroughly analyzed. I'm really enjoying this, by the way.

Anyway, unless someone has something else to contribute about this chaper, I'll go ahead and put chapter 2 up sometime tomorrow morning. Probably about 12 hours or so from the time listed on this post. :) :help: Um, can you give a run down of the answers to the questions? I'm feeling really stupid, 'cause I don't see where they were answered. Sorry.

[iitb]

Let me see if I can sum up the answers

1) Is John Elijah?

I would've sworn someone said John came in the spirit of Elijah, but I can't find it. Maybe it was in another thread. :scratch:

2) Verses 14 & 15 say, "Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of G-d,and saying, 'The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of G-d is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.'" From this, I have 2 questions:

A) Most Christians teach that the "Gospel" is defined as Y'shua dying for our sins. However, he's very much alive here, and for him to go around saying, "I'm going to die for your sins," would only convince people that he was crazy. So I ask, what is "the gospel?"

So The Gospel, at least I believe was what John defined as "making ready the ways of the L-rd" or in other words, returning to G-d and following his law again that they had all but abandoned.....
Yeshua, the Moshiach, the living Torah came with a message to those that were lost to return to the L-rd their G-d and follow his word. And this message unlike the times it was previously repeated was for both Jew and Gentile alike. If you follow G-d you too can enjoy a relationship with him.
B) "...the kingdom of G-d is at hand...." What is the kingdom of G-d?

The Kingdom is a physical manifestation of a miraculous kind. It comes with signs and the greatest of all the "signs" is Yeshua's teaching, in Hebrew: "his Torah". Everyone is asking "What is this?" , i.e. "Mah na?--manna"! "Mah na?--What is it? A NEW TORAH with authority!!" (verse 27).
My personal belief is that "the kingdom of G-d" is a fully regathered Israel. I really don't have time to search out the scripture to support this, though. :sigh:

[SpiritPsalmist]

B) "...the kingdom of G-d is at hand...." What is the kingdom of G-d?

The Kingdom is a physical manifestation of a miraculous kind. It comes with signs and the greatest of all the "signs" is Yeshua's teaching, in Hebrew: "his Torah". Everyone is asking "What is this?" , i.e. "Mah na?--manna"! "Mah na?--What is it? A NEW TORAH with authority!!" (verse 27).


My personal belief is that "the kingdom of G-d" is a fully regathered Israel. I really don't have time to search out the scripture to support this, though. :sigh:I don't understand either answer for B) I guess my first thought to the question "What is the kingdom of God?" was that scripture that says, "the Kingdom of God is not meat or drink but righteousness, peace, and joy." :o

[koilias]

B) "...the kingdom of G-d is at hand...." What is the kingdom of G-d?



I don't understand either answer for B) I guess my first thought to the question "What is the kingdom of God?" was that scripture that says, "the Kingdom of God is not meat or drink but righteousness, peace, and joy." :oThe parables of Yeshua and the Rabbis illustrate what the Kingdom of HaShem is (in hebrew: Malchut Sh'mayim).

The answer above is a good definition of its qualities. But the Malchut Sh'mayim is the study AND application of Living Torah. In Hebrew 1) HEAR/OBEY (Nishma') and 2) DO (Na'aseh), Exodus 24.7: All that HaShem has spoken we will DO and we will HEAR/OBEY. Because the DOING comes before the HEARING, the DOING is the most important part, say Rabbeinu. The Malchut Sh'mayim is Torah practiced from the heart.

To what can the Malchut Sh'mayim be compared to? Said Yeshua:

It can be compared to a man who built his house on the rock.

The man who builds his house on rock #1) HEARS (studies) and #2) DOES the words of Yeshua (the Oral Torah of Yeshua).

The man who builds his house on sand #1) Hears (studies) but #2) DOES NOT DO the words of Yeshua.

The Rock is the DOING. The Kingdom of HaShem is not simply about belief (that's only base one)...it's about doing. It's about following through.

[SpiritPsalmist]

The parables of Yeshua and the Rabbis illustrate what the Kingdom of HaShem is (in hebrew: Malchut Sh'mayim).

The answer above is a good definition of its qualities. But the Malchut Sh'mayim is the study AND application of Living Torah. In Hebrew 1) HEAR/OBEY (Nishma') and 2) DO (Na'aseh), Exodus 24.7: All that HaShem has spoken we will DO and we will HEAR/OBEY. Because the DOING comes before the HEARING, the DOING is the most important part, say Rabbeinu. The Malchut Sh'mayim is Torah practiced from the heart.

To what can the Malchut Sh'mayim be compared to? Said Yeshua:

It can be compared to a man who built his house on the rock.

The man who builds his house on rock #1) HEARS (studies) and #2) DOES the words of Yeshua (the Oral Torah of Yeshua).

The man who builds his house on sand #1) Hears (studies) but #2) DOES NOT DO the words of Yeshua.

The Rock is the DOING. The Kingdom of HaShem is not simply about belief (that's only base one)...it's about doing. It's about following through.Of course, I agree with that :) Even the demons believe and faith without works is dead. Also, as one of my Pastors use to say, it's about "being". I think that out of "being", we "do" :)

Thank you

[SpiritPsalmist]

Those are descriptors of the Kingdom of G-d.
I believe the Kingdom is much more as described in Scripture.
I understand that. . .I was just describing what first came to my mind with the question. I did not understand the answers that were given so I was asking for more clarification. I follow a lot of what I'm reading here but there is also a lot I'm not understanding at all, so I hope ya'll don't mind me asking questions for clarification.

Quaffer

[ShirChadash]

Also, as one of my Pastors use to say, it's about "being". I think that out of "being", we "do" :)


Amen, Quaffer.

[koilias]

Of course, I agree with that :) Even the demons believe and faith without works is dead. Also, as one of my Pastors use to say, it's about "being". I think that out of "being", we "do" :)

Thank you
Exactly...It's called Life.

[iitb]

Since I found this on the second page, I'm going to assume that means we're done with chapter 1. ;)

Here's chapter 2:
Mark 2


1 When He had come back to Capernaum several days afterward, it was heard that He was at home.
2 And many were gathered together, so that there was no longer room, not even near the door; and He was speaking the word to them.
3 And they came, bringing to Him a paralytic, carried by four men.
4 Being unable to get to Him because of the crowd, they removed the roof above Him; and when they had dug an opening, they let down the pallet on which the paralytic was lying.
5 And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."
6 But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts,
7 "Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?"
8 Immediately Jesus, aware in His spirit that they were reasoning that way within themselves, said to them, "Why are you reasoning about these things in your hearts?
9 "Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven'; or to say, 'Get up, and pick up your pallet and walk'?
10 "But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins"--He said to the paralytic,
11 "I say to you, get up, pick up your pallet and go home."
12 And he got up and immediately picked up the pallet and went out in the sight of everyone, so that they were all amazed and were glorifying God, saying, " We have never seen anything like this."
13 And He went out again by the seashore; and all the people were coming to Him, and He was teaching them.
14 As He passed by, He saw Levi the son of Alphaeus sitting in the tax booth, and He said to him, "Follow Me!" And he got up and followed Him.
15 And it happened that He was reclining at the table in his house, and many tax collectors and sinners were dining with Jesus and His disciples; for there were many of them, and they were following Him.
16 When the scribes of the Pharisees saw that He was eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they said to His disciples, " Why is He eating and drinking with tax collectors and sinners?"
17 And hearing this, Jesus said to them, " It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick; I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
18 John's disciples and the Pharisees were fasting; and they came and said to Him, "Why do John's disciples and the disciples of the Pharisees fast, but Your disciples do not fast?"
19 And Jesus said to them, "While the bridegroom is with them, the attendants of the bridegroom cannot fast, can they? So long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast.
20 "But the days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast in that day.
21 "No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; otherwise the patch pulls away from it, the new from the old, and a worse tear results.
22 "No one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wine will burst the skins, and the wine is lost and the skins as well; but one puts new wine into fresh wineskins."
23 And it happened that He was passing through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples began to make their way along while picking the heads of grain.
24 The Pharisees were saying to Him, "Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?"
25 And He said to them, "Have you never read what David did when he was in need and he and his companions became hungry;
26 how he entered the house of God in the time of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the consecrated bread, which is not lawful for anyone to eat except the priests, and he also gave it to those who were with him?"
27 Jesus said to them, " The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
28 "So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."

[iitb]

A few questions:

1) Verses 21 & 22 say, "No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; otherwise the patch pulls away from it, the new from the old, and a worse tear results. No one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wine will burst the skins, and the wine is lost and the skins as well; but one puts new wine into fresh wineskins."
I'm sure most Messianics have had these verses used against them as a means to support the messiah doing away with the Torah and Judaism. Obviously, we're going to disagree ;). So, what do these verses mean?

2) Verses 23-28:

A) Were Y'shua and his disciples violating the Sabbath? Why or why not?

B) "Jesus said to them, 'The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.'"
What in the world does this mean?

[koilias]

A few questions:

1) Verses 21 & 22 say, "No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; otherwise the patch pulls away from it, the new from the old, and a worse tear results. No one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wine will burst the skins, and the wine is lost and the skins as well; but one puts new wine into fresh wineskins."
I'm sure most Messianics have had these verses used against them as a means to support the messiah doing away with the Torah and Judaism. Obviously, we're going to disagree ;). So, what do these verses mean?
Well, reading the context certainly does not support that view. If that's the meaning...and the bridegroom has been taken away...why aren't they practicing Torah?

[koilias]

Besides...the new wine is inferior. It must become old (mature) in order to be good. John's disciples were all mature already and no longer needed their Rabbi. Yeshua still had to prepare his batch of talmidim until they could be set out on their own.

[koilias]

B) "Jesus said to them, 'The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.'"
What in the world does this mean?
Here is a Hebrew doublet. Essentially, "the son of man is Lord even of the Shabbat" elaborates on the first sentence. In this chapter "son of man" is reflecting the Hebrew word "ben-Adam" (son of Adam) which is Hebrew for "human being".

human being=ben Adam

So...Yeshua is saying the human being can be given not only the power to heal, but to forgive! This is why the Jewish audience is so stunned by the teaching of this Hasid Yeshua!

AND the human being is ba'al over the Shabbat...not Shabbat over the human being.

[SpiritPsalmist]

Besides...the new wine is inferior. It must become old (mature) in order to be good. John's disciples were all mature already and no longer needed their Rabbi. Yeshua still had to prepare his batch of talmidim until they could be set out on their own.
But what about when Jesus turned the water into wine? It did not have to mature. . .according to the host it was the best.

[koilias]

But what about when Jesus turned the water into wine? It did not have to mature. . .according to the host it was the best.:confused:
In what way is that incident related to this?

At the wedding...Yeshua performs a miracle in order to bless the bridegroom. In Judaism this is called an act of Hesed (mercy, grace, lovingkindness). All Rabbis were supposed to show the bridegroom Hesed.

The thing that was special about Yeshua is that he did not take credit for the miracle...The bridegroom got the credit! That's how all his disciples saw his "glory" and how he stood apart from most Rabbis.

This is a totally separate incident altogether and teaching another point: that even though Yeshua performed miracles worthy of Moshe and Eliyahu...he did not have to take credit for them.

[SpiritPsalmist]

:confused:
In what way is that incident related to this?

At the wedding...Yeshua performs a miracle in order to bless the bridegroom. In Judaism this is called an act of Hesed (mercy, grace, lovingkindness). All Rabbis were supposed to show the bridegroom Hesed.

The thing that was special about Yeshua is that he did not take credit for the miracle...The bridegroom got the credit! That's how all his disciples saw his "glory" and how he stood apart from most Rabbis.

This is a totally separate incident altogether and teaching another point: that even though Yeshua performed miracles worthy of Moshe and Eliyahu...he did not have to take credit for them.I was just asking a question. I understood the poster to be saying that new wine was useless and I wondered how that would apply in the situation where Jesus turned the water to wine. Obviously, "new wine" was not useless there. So even though they may not seem to be related it was just an idea I threw out to consider. I meant no harm.

I guess I was looking at what happened at the wedding as more than just a physical event but as possibly a statement on the new wine that God would bring forth. It would not necessarily be as immature as past experience says.

[koilias]

I meant no harm.Neither did I!! :)

I honestly don't see the connection!:scratch: Please know that I never mean harm...I guess I still need to learn how to state things better.

The wine is being used as a symbol in Mark. But I don't see that same symbol in John...

I'm not saying the new wine is useless at all! I'm saying that it is not ready (like me apparently)...That is why Yeshua is hanging out "eating and drinking" with the newbies...They are not as mature as John's disciples...they are still young, groping and have much to learn.

[SpiritPsalmist]

Neither did I!! :)

I honestly don't see the connection!:scratch: Please know that I never mean harm...I guess I still need to learn how to state things better.

The wine is being used as a symbol in Mark. But I don't see that same symbol in John...

I'm not saying the new wine is useless at all! I'm saying that it is not ready (like me apparently)...That is why Yeshua is hanging out "eating and drinking" with the newbies...They are not as mature as John's disciples...they are still young, groping and have much to learn.
Sorry if I was confusing. One scripture always reminds me of another and then the brain wheels start spinning. :)

[Henaynei]

I've made this mistake myself in other areas as well - funny how our own linear experience keeps limiting G-d ;)

Just because Yeshua "newly" made the wine does NOT mean that it was "new" wine :)
When He made the world He created many things with age - man, the sun and stars, plants and animals. When the steward of wedding drank the wine he said it was better than the first - Yeshua "obviously" created the wine at the "perfect age." :)

[SpiritPsalmist]

I've made this mistake myself in other areas as well - funny how our own linear experience keeps limiting G-d ;)

Just because Yeshua "newly" made the wine does NOT mean that it was "new" wine :)
When He made the world He created many things with age - man, the sun and stars, plants and animals. When the steward of wedding drank the wine he said it was better than the first - Yeshua "obviously" created the wine at the "perfect age." :)
I don't understand what you mean by "linear experience". I believe I was actually giving more room here and not limiting at all. In your second paragraph you made my point exactly :) It was newly created, yet not immature in the least.

[Henaynei]

I don't understand what you mean by "linear experience". I believe I was actually giving more room here and not limiting at all. In your second paragraph you made my point exactly :) It was newly created, yet not immature in the least.
Well, in my misinformed reading of your post it read to me that you were labeling the wine Yeshua created as New wine.

Clearly while it was "just made/created" it was *not* New wine. It was Old/mature wine, newly created, high quality at that ;)

I am sorry if I misunderstood you :)

[Henaynei]

linear experience= We live in a 3-dimensional world (past moved to present which is moving toward futrue) where time is a immutable concept and functions at a set rate (in our immediate vicinity - for all you sci-fi adn science fans) and in only one direction. We are essentially "trapped" in this linear time reference and it is very difficult for us to rationally conceive of an existence where time behaves in any other fashion or where it can be freely manipulated or to *really* grasp with living totally without time would functionally mean :)

/me begs - please folks - don't allow my rabbit trail to hijack the flow of study :bow:

[INOrder]

Hello all and please pardon me
for I feel the need to rewind to chapter1 of Mark.

I have only had enought time to disect the first verse and understand the second verse very well.

Call me a librarian that was trained with ancient techniques.
A scroll is passed to me and I am then asked to read the Title and then the subject matter.
and so I read
The Title is [from the book fo Mark]:Masorah Li Yehoshuah
the subject matter is: The Halakhah of Israel

The way an ancient librarian understood the book and its contents was to read the first two lines or the first paragraph of a book. This is also taught in Universities, that an essay need to be written with the first paragraph as a summary of what the essay will contain.

Greek Hebrew English
========================================
ARCHE RESHIT Beginning/ chief or head
Tou EUANGELION Masorah Gospel-preach/ rehearse by mouth
Iesou Yehoshuah (Yeshua) Jesus
Xristrou Ha Mashiach The Messiah/Christ
Fiou Tou Theou Ben Elokim Son of G'd
(Mark 1:1)

Now I will get into detail of what these simple things mean, making it a little more with defined lines that are not normally seen:

Reshit - Beginning of what? (the oral Torah) And if we are to look for the beginning of the Oral Torah (Masorah) where do we look? What about Avot 1:1? Don't we have in this Mishnah the history of the Oral Torah?

So ... the Reshit of the Masorah ...
Christians that are learning more about their "Jewish roots" and of course their leaders in this mission the Messianic "Jews" are always hung up on the word BESORAH. Trouble is that BESORAH means news, and if I were to be frank about it usually it means bad news, and if I want it to mean good news, I need to use the adjective TOV. However, this stupid Jew [me] proposes something revolutionary (hang on your seats); I propose that the original New Testament had MASORAH and not BESORAH and that this BESORAH is either a monkeys error or a monkeys twisting of his tail. Why? Well lets us go back to Avot 1:1. What is the Hebrew for "Gospelled it down"? MASARAH no? And what does the Greek of Peter 1:26 has for "proclaimed" (gospelled)? (EUEUAGELISTHEN)

Now EUAGELISTHEN comes from EUAGELION, which is translated "Gospel". So - let us put this Humpity Dumpity together again:
Gospelled Down = EUAGELISTHEN = MASARAH
Gospel = EUAGELION = MASORAH

So, here there is nothing about Good News or Bad News, or any News at all. No jobs for the press boys. What we have here is MASORAH. Something that is explained in AVOT 1:1
RESHIT MASORA - the beginning of the Masorah


1) “RESHEET MASORAH” – “The Chief parts of the M’SORAH”:
• “Mosheh Qibel Torah MiSinai, UM’sara LiY’hoshuah – Moses received the Torah from Sinai and gospelled it down in the ears of Yehoshuah“ (Pirqe Avot 1:1). This is the same Written and Oral Torah which another Yehoshuah (Abrev. Yeshuah/Jesus) "gospelled" to the nazarene sect to learn and to observe, and I am convinced that it is the same Written and Oral Torah which Jewish Orthodox Rabbis are custodians of to this very day, and it is the patrimony of anyone rightly called a Nazarean. See Positive Commandments 1-15 and 172-176 in the order of Maimonides (Chavel, 1967, vol I, pp. 1-23); Principles 7,8,9 of Maimonides Thirteen Basic Principles of Faith (ibid, vol. I, pp. 275-279).
• That Jesus, par excellance, and in like manner any other angel (Rabbi) is the embodiment of the written and oral Torah (see John 1:1, 14).
• That this Masorah (Written and Oral Torah) is to be memorised and observed by all who consider to be G'd’s children (cf. Prov. 2:2).
• That this Masorah is a fence that protects us from deviating in any form from the way that Ha-Shem has indicated for us to walk in and as indicated in the Written and Oral Torah of our noble people Yisrael.

2) “YESHUAH HA-MASHIACH” - “Yeshuah the Messiah.”
• That he is the angel captain of the host of heaven which G'd has sent to our noble people of Yisrael since the days after the death of Mosheh Rabbenu “to safeguard us on the way, and to bring the noble people of Yisrael to the place that G'd has prepared” (Sh’mot 23:30).
• That we must “be careful before him and listen to his voice (cf. John 10:1-18 – that is, the voice of the Oral Torah). We are not to rebel against him, for he (Mashiach) will not pardon our disobedience since G-d’s Name (and authority) is in Him” (Sh’mot 23:21). See also Principle 12 of Maimonides Thirteen Basic Principles of Faith (Chavel, 1967, vol. I, pp. 279-280).

3) “Ben Elokim” – Son of G'd.
• That Mashiach is the Rosh (captain, chief, head) of all the heavenly host, of all the angels and therefore also of all Torah Judges (Rabbis) in Yisrael, and it is he who has guided all our Rabbis and our noble people since the times of Yehoshuah bar nun to this day. See Positive Commandments 6, 11, 12 and 172-176 in the order of Maimonides (Chavel, 1967, vol I, pp. 1-23); Principle 12 of Maimonides Thirteen Basic Principles of Faith (ibid, vol. I, pp. 279-280); Negative Commandments 312-318 (ibid, Vol 2, pp.287-294); see also Psalm 82 and Yochanan 10:34.
• That all males who truly accept upon themselves the whole of the Written and Oral Torah as is accepted in Jewish Orthodoxy, and who accept upon themselves the Yoke of the government of the Nazarene Messiah, are given also a vocation (calling) to become and prepare themselves through much Torah study and obedience Torah Scholars (Rabbis) themselves – see Sh’mot 19:6; 1 Peter 2:9; 1 John 3:1. This, also does not detract the need for women who also have accepted the authority of Mashiach to have an excellent command of both the Written and Oral Torah, however the emphasis placed on such women is that of being an excellent wife, mother, and full of many good deeds.


There is a saying in the Christian Bible, the New Testament, in which it looks and sounds like the writings of the Masters.
BUT THIS IS THE ORAL WORD WHICH WAS GOSPELLED (EUAGGELISTHEN) TO YOU.

This reminds me of Avot 1:1

Sephardi Jews read Avot from the first of Nisan till the Rosh Ha-Shanah and study it during the spring and Summer months and the afternoon of the Sabbath since daylight is long.
And we do that every year, Ashkenazim start after Pesach. And this custom goes back to the times of the Great Assembly. Now, where did I heard a similar phrase to the Greek I quoted above? (From Pirki Avot 1:1 )

But then Peter says in the last verse of the first chapter This "WORD" is the Gospel which has been proclaimed to you. Is he saying that the Gospel = Oral and Written Torah? YES!
[I believe the above translation is from a Dr.Stern bible]

For those of you who are not conversed with Jewish History. The Time of the Great Assembly goes back to the times of the Prophet Malachi which is about 400 years becfore Jesus.

So, What is the GOSPEL? Please note: There are two words in Greek for WORD
LOGOS = Word, Idea, and usually translates for Torah
RIMA = Oral word, oral message
And in the Greek here we have: BUT THIS IS THE ORAL WORD (RIMA) WHICH WAS GOSPELLED (EUAGELISTHEN) TO YOU.

So what is this thing that is called GOSPEL? I believe it is originally the Oral Torah
Mosheh = Moses
Qibel = Received
Torah = Writen and Oral Law
MiSinai = from Sinai
UMesorah = And gospelled it (rehearsed it in the ears)
Li Yehoshuah = of "Jesus"

So Mark 1:1 should read:
RESHIT MASORAH LI YEHOSHUAH [The beginning of the Masorah (Oral Torah of Yehoshuah the Messiah the Chief Judge.] - of Yehoshuah, and this links us back again to Avot 1:1, hand in glove so to speak.

I have heard that some messianics say that Jesus is the Messiah son of Josef. In fact, I can see a relation to that idea by the translation and meaning that I have provided above.
Yehoshuah Bar Nun was a type of "Mashiach ben Yosef" in that he was the one who had the office of bringing Israel to the land. However, the only correlation I see is that in the similarities of names.

MASHIACH BEN ELOKIM
Mashiach = Messiah

What is a Ben Elokim? A Son of G'd? (Son of G'd - a Judge). Every Judge in Yisrael and the King who is the head Judge in Yisrael receives the title BEN ELOKIM? How do we know this? What about Tehillim 82:6? What about John 10:34-35?

Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

I do hope that this has help in a focusing of what these writtings really mean. [well that is what I am seeing]

bye

[koilias]

INOrder it is literally a gift from HaShem to be studying with you.

I agree...let's slow down! There's so much we're missing as you've so abundantly made clear....And there could literally be nothing more pleasurable than brothers dwelling together in unison, d'rashing Torah.:)

I like this pace of study myself.

[koilias]

***Not to introduce an alien topic into this thread: But for those of you following and are not Messianic or Jewish, note that this is what happens when you throw anti-Semitism out the window....I have only before experienced this in Israel, when Orthodox Jewish scholars, fluent in the Oral Torah, sat around the same table with gentile scholars of Early Christian studies. I've never felt the Ruach haKodesh more prescient and in a more sublime manifestation than in those holy moments!!***

Sorry for the aside...but let's get back to this Mesorah discussion...I'm too busy right now writing a paper for school so I can't right now...But I'm literally filled with goosebumps!:clap: :clap:

[iitb]

If nobody minds, I'm going to go ahead and make this a sticky thread(most like to call those "announcements" ;)). I realize that that can pretty much be the equivalent of making it invisible, but it'll also keep it from dropping to the third page ;)

[INOrder]

Very well, if it is fine with you that we do rewind and take apart and reconstruct the first chapter greatly that is fine with me.

What I see is that these men were pioneers and that the world christendom has a Talmud that they read from each service that they have within their own hands.

Christians by denying the Talmud deny the work that is within their churches. But it is not by fault of their own for this is what they believe and this is what they were taught and handed down.
The fault belongs to those that first initiated such a foreign Masorah.
May the christians and Messianics and those that reject Oral tradition be blessed by G'd, His abounding mercies be with them.

I don't know what other insights I would have in breaking down Mark or any other part of the New Testament, but I will try my best. I am only still studying Mishna and not that well learned in greater things.
Ha-Shem be with us in our endevours

bye

[koilias]

1) “RESHEET MASORAH” – “The Chief parts of the M’SORAH”:
• “Mosheh Qibel Torah MiSinai, UM’sara LiY’hoshuah – Moses received the Torah from Sinai and gospelled it down in the ears of Yehoshuah“ (Pirqe Avot 1:1). This is the same Written and Oral Torah which another Yehoshuah (Abrev. Yeshuah/Jesus) "gospelled" to the nazarene sect to learn and to observe, and I am convinced that it is the same Written and Oral Torah which Jewish Orthodox Rabbis are custodians of to this very day, and it is the patrimony of anyone rightly called a Nazarean. Very nice observation,...I'm finding a remarkable correspondence between Pirke Avot and haMesorah al-pi Markus and the Sod version of Markus, the Mesorah al-pi Yohannan. I'm beginning to theorize that maybe M. Markus and M. Yohannan were to be recited along with the structure of Pirke Avot....as commentaries.

Look at these remarkable correspondences:

1. Moses received the Torah from Sinai, and he delivered it to Jehoshua', and Jehoshua' to the elders, and the elders to the prophets, and the prophets delivered it to the men of the Great Synagogue. They said three things: Be deliberate in judgment; and raise up many disciples; and make a fence to the Torah.

Markus and Yohannan: Immediately these two gospel the news: Yohannan is deliberating Torah with the Pharisees (making judgments), making disciples and calling the 'Am haAretz to return to the Torah: for the Meshiach was arriving soon to build a fence around Torah; before the fence (the Oral Torah) is raised one must return to the Torah wholeheartedly. Note how humbly Yohannan haMatbil (baptizer) sees his mission: Calling back to Torah is important and necessary but a much more inferior task than the "raising of the fence": he is not even worthy to untie--that is "loose" a term designating the power to make Halakhic decisions--the laces of Yehoshua's sandals. Yohannan was great like Moshe, but even Moshe's task is "less than" Yehoshua's task, for Yehoshua raises the fence for the next generation to "establish" ("raise") the Rima of Moshe.

2. Shime'on ha-Çaddiq was of the remnants of the Great Synagogue. He used to say, On three things the world is stayed; on the Torah, and on the Worship, and on the bestowal of Kindnesses (Hesed).

Yohannan 1.16-17: For his fullness (wholeness of Torah) we have all received, and Lovingkindness upon Lovinkindness. For the Torah was given through Moshe; Lovingkindness (Xaris--Hesed) and Truth (Faithfulness) were realized through Yeshua haMashiach.

3. Antigonus of Soko received from Shime'on ha-Çaddiq. He used to say, Be not as slaves that minister to the lord with a view to receive recompense; but be as slaves that minister to the lord without a view to receives recompense; and let the fear of Heaven be upon you.

Yohannan ch. 2: Three days after garnering his first disciples immediately Yeshua has to stop teaching them Torah to go to a wedding as is dictated by Jewish tradition. Eager to show that he is a Rabbi, Yeshua's mother (a proud Jewish momma!) puts Yeshua on the spot to show an act of Hesed (Lovingkindness), as all Rabbis are required to do at weddings. But rather than take credit for the miracle, he performs the miracle without the best man/head servant or the bridegroom's knowledge. The head servant therefore immediately calls out the praise for Yeshua's miracle on the bridegroom, thus performing his task of Hesed. All the guests now must remain silent as to who truly garnered the good wine, therefore everybody gets to perform "Hesed" by simply keeping their mouths shut and hiding the identity of the wine-giver. The true miracle is that everyone involved got to perform Hesed to the bridegroom and not just Yeshua! And since the bridegroom gets the praise, Yeshua does not receive "recompense" thus for his act of Hesed!! ^_^

The key to understanding this tale is the amazing Jewish humor in it! When Yeshua says curtly to his mom "What's between you and me, woman?...Don't you see? My time has not yet come!" he means it very humorously..."Momma I'm working on it!...It's not even ready yet, just sit down and watch". ;) She was very eager to show everybody how her number one, wonderful, amazing "Hesed"-oozing, and knowledgeable son just became a Rabbi with his first talmidim in tow. And since she could not gloat and praise him afterwards, detracting attention away from the bridegroom, boy did he "hood-wink" his momma in a humorous way! ^_^

The bride-groom, by the way, was very poor. Yeshua's mother wanted her son to provide the wine...she wasn't expecting a miracle. She was expecting Hesed, and the means are irrelevant to her. The fact that Yeshua garners the wine by divine means teaches very beautifully that HaShem will go out of His way to show Lovingkindness even to a single poor man, even if it means that the Meshiach himself must stop teaching Torah and perform a miracle worthy of Moshe and Eliyahu! Note that the wine-giver, HaShem, even gives the poor man all the credit that is really due to Him (so that the poor man would not be shamed--as far as the bridegroom is concerned, he continued to believe that he had provided enough wine). And by the way, Yeshua had to stop teaching Torah for an entire week (the duration of a Jewish wedding) according to Rabbinic tradition! :clap: (The only person who can get credit for teaching Torah during a Jewish wedding is the bridegroom himself...since nobody should be able to detract from the bridegroom's "glory" during a wedding by teaching him Torah, this is why his Rabbi himself must serve the bridegroom by reversing roles with him...the "head-waiter" is probably the bridegroom's Rabbi...In Jewish tradition this is one of the greatest ways you can show Hesed to someone, the only other way equal to it is by preparing somebody's body for burial.)
4. Jose ben Jo'ezer of Çeredah and Jose ben Jochanan of Jerusalem received from them. Jose ben Jo'ezer of Çeredah said, Let thy house be a meeting-house for the wise; and powder thyself in the dust of their feet; and drink their words with thirstiness.

Markus 1:15ff: After Yeshua says, "Repent and believe the Mesorah!" everywhere he goes he is swarmed by people, eager to hear his Rima. He stays in the synagogues and people's houses, they "powder themselves with the dust of his feet" all over the wilderness.

[INOrder]

Hello Koilias,

please remember that to combine the degrees at which one interprets in Judaism can only be held in writings similar to a "responsa".
Responsa's are a genre of writings in which all and each degree of interpretation has a place.
But when it arrives at the door of specific writings that would be a violation.
I find it intresting that there are these four Gospels here, because there are four degrees of interpreting.
That would mean that each book is devoted exclusively to its own degree of interpretation.
Only one can be the simple, only one can be the allusion, and so on and so on.
This means that the writers did not allow themselves to steer from their devoted paths.
Now, I do not mean to say that there is no connection with John and pirkei Avot, there may be and you have shown how some portions of John connect with Avot, and I greatly appreciate it. I have not taken a good look into John. But by the language that is contained in it I agree with you that it is dedicated to Sod.

I must say that Mark is dedicated to only one level not two or three.
I am beginning to believe that his writing should be properly stated as "Mishna".
After I figure out this complete book then I will look into Luke being Gemara by the list commented on.
I do believe that the Mishna can be taken to the Sod, but I think that John has already pointed this out by his use of symbolism.

bye friend

[Henaynei]

Bump - you guys froget about me?? :wave: (says the Mark thread....)

[INOrder]

Hello Henaynei,

no, I have not forgotten of this thread.
I actually look for it each day to see if anyone wants to comment or say something.
I am pounding the next few texts to find something.
It is a little more harder, but i will find something.
So I am waiting for others, I hope that I have not become the lead in this thread and the public is waiting for my take and view so that they can respond.
OY, if so then I have put myself in a situation that I cannot be in right now.

bye

[visionary]

I have been reading all the threads on this particular forum...very interesting..learning lots....

quick question. the Kingdom of God.??? It has not yet been discussed. May I stir up thoughts...

no earthly king, Torah foundation, Christ-like character in its people, Garden of Eden setting, Crystal City,.....????

Visionary

[koilias]

I have been reading all the threads on this particular forum...very interesting..learning lots....

quick question. the Kingdom of God.??? It has not yet been discussed. May I stir up thoughts...

no earthly king, Torah foundation, Christ-like character in its people, Garden of Eden setting, Crystal City,.....????

VisionaryEarthly king, no, for HaShem is king, but, just to be clear, He is king of heaven and earth, Isaiah 61:1. "Kingdom of Heaven" does not imply the kingdom is only "in heaven". "Heaven" is a Jewish way to refer to G-d. "Malchut Shamayim" means "Kingdom of G-d" in English. The Kingdom of G-d is now on earth, but only a few can experience it!

Torah foundation, yes.

Christ-like character in its people, yes.

Garden of Eden setting, only in the relational way.

Crystal City, no. It is not a place we can say "there it is" or "over here"...or as some Christians like to claim between the lines: "only in my church".

The Kingdom of G-d is purely and simply accepting the rule of G-d in our lives.

However, there is a way to recognize the Kingdom of G-d. The sign of the Kingdom is that it is accompanied with signs and wonders, for where you see the "finger of G-d" at work--that is the "kingdom of G-d". You shall recognize it by the signs. The blind shall see. The deaf will hear. The lame shall leap as harts. Demons shall be cast out in Yeshua's name. Etc.

Shalom.

[koilias]

Welcoming the Shabbat Bride:

27 Jesus said to them, " The Shabbat was made for man, and not man for the Shabbat.
28 "So the Ben-Adam is Ba'al (Lord) even of the Shabbat."

However does it not say:

"My beloved is mine, and I am his."? (Songs 2.16)

Why do we sing "lekha Dodi"?

"The Shabbat was made..." This means that the Shabbat goes searching for us, whether we look for her or not. As it says: "I sought him but did not find him, I must arise now, etc" (Songs 3.1ff).

But, why is the ben-Adam ba'al over her?

Because she gives the rewards of her vineyard to the King and his attendants (Songs 8.12).

Yeshua says David and his attendants ate of the consecrated bread, and that applies likewise to his disciples eating grain...for the Shabbat gives fruit to the King's attendants.

In another place Yeshua equates the Kingdom of G-d to a man who brings out treasures from a treasure box, both new and old. As it says in Songs 7.13:

The mandrakes have given forth fragrance;
And over our doors are all the choice (fruit/treasure),
Both new and old,
Which I have saved up for you, my beloved (Dodi).

The fruit or treasure is Torah. Some of it is "old", from days of yore, some of it is "new", and was specifically for Yeshua's generation. The Shabbat preserved some of her fruit for Yeshua's generation. Likewise there is no fasting for Yeshua's disciples, for the fruit of fasting was saved for Yeshua's generation. Did not Abraham see Yeshua's day? Indeed, he saw it and rejoiced! As it says in Genesis 22:14:

וַיִּקְרָא אַבְרָהָם שֵׁם-הַמָּקוֹם הַהוּא, יְהוָה יִרְאֶה, אֲשֶׁר יֵאָמֵר--- הַיּוֹם בְּהַר יְהוָה יֵרָאֶה.

Which can be read:

And Abraham called the name of that place, HaShem will provide, for it will be said: "The Day on the mountain of HaShem will appear (be provided)".

Ah! I tell you a mystery....but keep it shush! ;) It says in Psalm 118 in Hebrew: This is the Day that Adonai has made, let us rejoice and be glad in HIM.

Adonai provided the sacrifice. His name is DAY. The "Day" is the stone the builders rejected. Read Psalm 118!

[iitb]

17 And Jesus said to them, "Follow Me, and I will make you become fishers of men."

Anyone have any insight on this verse?

[koilias]

17 And Jesus said to them, "Follow Me, and I will make you become fishers of men."

We as G-d's faithful fishers need to pay attention when He says: "Push out into deep water and let down your nets for a catch!" (Luke 5:8-11)

Whenever we get the calling to push out into unfriendly territory, we must go!

Fishermen in the Galilee caught their catch in the trustworthy shallows...not in the deep water!

And when He commands us to go to the ends of the earth, the catch is not up to us, but up to HaShem...for it is His work, not ours. We merely get to privilige to pull the catch in!;)

And note that if we say, like Kephas, "Go away from me, Lord. I am a sinful man!", that is no excuse!!! However sinful or untrained you may think you are, G-d uses even sinners for His work.

[sojeru]

Wow,
Im glad to be back
and INOrder has provided some awesome insight

thank you inorder,
we are on the same page with what I have provided

shalom u'brachot

[Henaynei]

Wow,
Im glad to be back
and INOrder has provided some awesome insight

thank you inorder,
we are on the same page with what I have provided

shalom u'brachot

Glad to see ya' back, chaver!!;)