A difficult but necessary study

[Henaynei]

Now that we’ve had a taste of the havoc that anti-Semitism can wreak in our midst, and we’ve had a glimpse of who can be caught in its sway—often, by appearances, the most unlikely—I believe HaShem has placed a challenge before this forum that would unite those of us who truly love Israel and teach us volumes about the nature and reality of anti-Semitism.

I would like to challenge the members of this forum to begin to make an in-depth study of the Holocaust—through books and film—until we’ve each attained a measurable depth of knowledge on the subject. Perhaps we might devote a year to this study, discussing the books and films we’re using, assisting one another through the horror, anger, pain, and confusion such a study may elicit.

Even for those of us who believe we do have some depth of knowledge on the subject, it would be a powerful right of passage into Judaism, for I don’t believe anyone can study the Holocaust deeply and not emerge from it with a stronger link to the Jewish people and a greater understanding of the enemies of Israel. The hater of the Jew often comes cloaked in the robes of reason, righteousness or piety, though his soul be black with envy. If we are to sojourn with the Jew we should become students of anti-Semitism; knowing what it is, who it affects, and what it can do. And we should, emotionally and spiritually, pass through the fire our beloved friends have passed through, if we’re ever to truly understand what they’ve suffered in Christian lands.

[Sephania]

:cry:

[ShirChadash]

:cry:

I know you posted it ^, Zayit, but it was going to be my reply too, so I decided to add it anyway. *heavy sigh*

[ShirChadash]

Just thoughts:

I've tried... for the past four days, I have tried to make it through "Schindler's List." I haven't succeeded yet. It's on two video cassettes (a smarter buy for us, as we can watch it in our own bedroom away from the wandering eyes of our trusting, beautiful children who wouldn't, all of them, be able to watch this...) and I have made it through the first cassette. Two days... it took me two days to get through that alone. The beginning of the film reminded me of Leon Uris' novel, Mila 18; the stark pictures of the Warsaw ghetto, the frantic looks of men and women and children, the discussions of, "surely this is enough... surely they will be appeased, it is enough...". The little girl, the one colorized child who stood out in the midst of the black and white footage... I was almost desperate to grab her up in my arms when I saw her walking... so sweet and innocent and unknowing. :cry: As I watched, I just shook my head... over and over and over. Each day that has gone by since we purchased the tapes, each day my children ask me, "Mama, did you finish the show last night? Mama, can you tell us?" And my big boys, 14 ,and 12, and 10, "Mom, we should watch too." Each day my husband looks at me, and knows I had to turn it off last night, I couldn't watch more.


Amazing what all this does to me. I studied and wrote research papers about Auschwitz and Treblinka when I was in high school. Since then, I have had a sensitivity... and I haven't grown hard of heart to see over and over the pictures, the hatred, the death and destruction and frenzied horror that was the Holocaust... I've only grown more and more sad. I have to admit, it was so stinging to me to read a comment by a lapsed Jew poster on these very forums, stating that it is "hilarious" to see Messianics not accepted by either Jew or Christian. I kept wanting to say... how tragic to see a Jew think it hilarious to see the disdain and hatred of anyone for their beliefs and lifestyle.

One thing DH and I have known deeply in our hearts, as we step further and further into Messianic Judaism is that we WON'T be accepted by anyone (now, I realize that a good many Christians do accept and support MJ and we are blessed to be in a church which, so far, does... but I will also say we are perhaps more Jewish in our practice than most in gentilized christianity can "stomach", and more than many Messianics I suppose, and we are being called further and further that direction; we expect that someday all those who are Jews, all those who are true Christians, and Messianics definitely, will experience more and more persecution).

So we have said to ourselves, and to one another in our discussions, "yes, so we will be subject to much persecution for aligning ourselves with Jews. And much for being believers in Yeshua. And much for just about everything we believe and stand for". And we have chosen to continue forward and trust that our Abba will bring us through whatever is to be our "lot" in life. But when I see the hatred evident in the film, or read it in books, or hear of it happening to my Jewish brethren, it hits me personally now. I look at my littlest babes sleeping near me and feel fiercely protective. I think of my Jewish cousin and his wife and boys... and wonder... what will they go through before Yeshua comes? What might I be subjecting my own chidlren to, before Yeshua comes, and HOW can we choose this path knowing what probably lies in store? Can I bear to see what so many of our parents (including my father) witnessed in the 1940's? I read books about what it means to be a Jew, to grow up a Jew, to be persecuted day by day by the non-Jews, kippah stolen or knocked in the mud... "dirty Jew!"... it is such mindless and yet such willfull, murderous hate. I wonder when it will find the fuel to erupt in large scale again and then... I realize... it never died down as my elder brothers and sisters live it daily in Israel and elsewhere. *shaking head* It really leaves me speechless.

[ShirChadash]

And I had meant to add this poem, which I read just minutes before posting here:

From
I Never Saw Another Butterfly, Children's Drawings and Poems from Terezin Concentration Camp, 1942-1944 Edited by Hana Volavkova; revised and expanded by the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum (http://www.ushmm.org/). New York: Schocken Books, Inc. 1993.


"The Butterfly"

The last, the very last,
So richly, brightly, dazzlingly yellow.
Perhaps if the sun's tears would sing
against a white stone. . . .

Such, such a yellow
Is carried lightly 'way up high.
It went away I'm sure because it wished to
kiss the world good-bye.

For seven weeks I've lived in here,
Penned up inside this ghetto.
But I have found what I love here.
The dandelions call to me
And the white chestnut branches in the court.
Only I never saw another butterfly.

That butterfly was the last one.
Butterflies don't live in here,
in the ghetto.

Pavel Friedman 4.6.1942

http://www.euronet.nl/users/jubo/butterfly.html

[Multi-Elis]

The hater of the Jew often comes cloaked in the robes of reason, righteousness or piety,Wow, that is so true. And that's what's so scary, and that is the reason I think all school programs should study the matter. "robes of reason" that makes me think of Voltaire. And we know there is no logical reason for being anti-jewish. Yet he passed of for a reasonable man with "reasonalble" reasons for antisemitism. It can happen anywhere, any time. It is something the whole world should be aware of.

[koilias]

If one wants to know how the holocaust could have happened, one need only read through Grimm's fairy tales. Cruelty against Jews was taught from the crib.:(

[INOrder]

A good book to read is
"Hitler's Jewish soldiers"

[Trish1947]

Any real born again Christian that would turn over a Jew, or not protect their life in the midst of evil and murder, in my book is about as Christian as Hitler was. We have to be willing to die for what is right. I'd rather die for what is right, than live with myself having done wrong. My God watches me every day, and we have to be willing to die for rightousness, no matter what. When it comes to things like this rising up, it certainly will separate the "sheep from the goats".

[SpiritPsalmist]

:hug:'s to all my Jewish brother's and sister's

[Henaynei]

Blessings upon Multi-Elis, Trish1947 and Quaffer!! May the Holy, blessed be He, pour out His mercy and grace on your behalf!! b'shem Yeshua!!

[rooster]

i recommend "night" by Elie Wiesel ..... he is a nobel laurete i think, and was in Auschwitz. The book is emotionally raw and makes no attempts to gloss over or insert prose. Its just honest and horrifying.

[Dominus Fidelis]

Is it the MJ belief that the Holocaust was done to the Jewish people by Chrisitan people?

:scratch:

[SpiritPsalmist]

Is it the MJ belief that the Holocaust was done to the Jewish people by Chrisitan people?

:scratch:
DefensOrFidei,

I think it is pretty common knowledge that those who participated in the Holocaust claimed to be Christian. ;) At Christimas time some Jews were hung on Christmas trees and carols were sung. Carols about Jesus and His birth. What would you think if it were your people having that done to them?

[Dominus Fidelis]

I dont know Quaffer. I dont know much about the subject other than that Hitler killed 6 million Jews because he was a maniac.

I also wonder why God would allow the Jews to be put through this horrific genocide?

[SpiritPsalmist]

I dont know Quaffer. I dont know much about the subject other than that Hitler killed 6 million Jews because he was a maniac.

I also wonder why God would allow the Jews to be put through this horrific genocide?I guess we could then ask "why did He allow the crusades?" And how about all the horrible things written about in "Fox's Book of Martyr's"? Why are there millions of baby's aborted every year? Do you ever consider it Christian to murder?

[ShirChadash]

*shakes head*

[Hix]

Its one of the many negative things about being G-ds chosen people, The Jewish people being led as "lambs to the slaughter" becuase of the worlds wrong doings is an unfortunate message repeated in the Tanach *shakes head*

Holocaust aside the church was the cause of other horrendous moments in history such as the crusades and the inquisitions. Not to forget the banishment of all Jews from Europe and the "Blood Libel" lie which still haunts us to this day. But that is not to say it is any christians fault, infact far from it, I personally believe though that everyone should learn from these past mistakes so they are not repeated.

Lets spread the love people ;)
Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[SpiritPsalmist]

Its one of the many negative things about being G-ds chosen people, The Jewish people being led as "lambs to the slaughter" becuase of the worlds wrong doings is an unfortunate message repeated in the Tanach *shakes head*

Holocaust aside the church was the cause of other horrendous moments in history such as the crusades and the inquisitions. Not to forget the banishment of all Jews from Europe and the "Blood Libel" lie which still haunts us to this day. But that is not to say it is any christians fault, infact far from it, I personally believe though that everyone should learn from these past mistakes so they are not repeated.

Lets spread the love people ;)
Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~
Agreed, and it's important for all to know, especially the non-Jew, that to take on the name of Jesus makes none of us exempt from persecution.

[ShirChadash]

Agreed, and it's important for all to know, especially the non-Jew, that to take on the name of Jesus makes none of us exempt from persecution.
True enough, Quaffer. Let's also hope that taking on the name of Yeshua would at least make us exempt from being persecutors.

[Boanerge]

Is it the MJ belief that the Holocaust was done to the Jewish people by Chrisitan people?

If Christianity has the ability to be used as a cloak to hide ones true intentions and reveal them before its too late, then a Christian is capable of such things.

Then again anyone within any religion, is capable of such things.

Simply because many have the habit if interchanging Faith with Title. For example, "Oh, She's a Christian, she must be able to heal us!" or "Oh, he's a Christian, how can he dress like that!" I try my best to know the difference, but There is living like a Christian only by title, living like a Christian by others doctrines without you ever reading the Bible yourself, or living like a Christian following the footsteps of Christ, doing as he says.

And you can tell by which of the three you follow simply by looking at your life.

I see the Holocaust as a means for the enemy to hinder us from ever getting united in a spiritual sense, making it difficult for the Jews to ever believe in what Christians believe in. But those who still do, call themselves messianic Jews because of the extremely heavy burden that the Title "Christian" holds. And i would not make such a big deal to force people to convert into any "Title" because it is not the name "Christian" That changes the heart of a person, and history can show you this.

It is who that name is suppose to represent, Jesus Christ, that does the work within a person. Your real title is found within the condition of your heart, and it can reveal whether you are a Sheep or a Goat, no matter what your surounding title is, whether you are Jew, Messianic Jew, Muslim, or Christian.

Many of those who want to find Jesus, try to do so within the surrounding religion, because it is safer, for some reason anyone who speaks the truth in Jesus gets trampled on or mocked at. I kind of know why, and i kind of don't, because Living as the Lord wants us to live really improves our lives, i don't understand why its so wrong to follow Him. We can follow other things, but following Jesus is the hardest. Why? I believe it's because the enemy, the Synogogue of Satan, has learned that if there is any belief that means something, it is any belief that has something to do with Jesus, and will do anything to divide and confuse the truth as in "what does it really mean to follow Jesus"?

Some people think that being corrected and rebuked is "persecution".

But persecution that means something, in my book, is this: Getting strange looks when reading the bible to someone in the train, getting laughed at for giving the Lord a song of praise, getting in trouble for doing a small prayer in school, helping out a stranger that everyone hates. For example, a Muslim helping an American and an American helping a Muslim. And then it extends into physical persecution from there.

Anyway theres more to this, but right now i don't understand it, so i will wait until the Holy Spirit teaches me more. I learned something today, and if i continue writing it would only be me exploring this new lesson. I pray that this may get you thinking too, but rightesously and in truth. who knows, maybe your post will help me better understand what i am trying to understand right now.

[SpiritPsalmist]

Well said, Boanerge

[ShirChadash]

But those who still do, call themselves messianic Jews because of the extremely heavy burden that the Title "Christian" holds.
How true. And actually, many identify as Messianic Jews, rather than "Christians", also because of the great amount of paganism that has come to be part and parcel of Christianity and Christian observances/practices/understandings of what it is to be a believer. Messianic Jews often eschew such paganism and instead embrace the observances/practices/understandings of the Jew who also believes, which are those found in the Word of G-d and practiced by the Word of G-d, Yeshua. Same Messiah, different way of living. Messianic Jew would be a more accurately descriptive term for such believers.

[Trish1947]

I might be making this too simplistic here, but if we look at just the human side of why people do such things, does it seem like a natural thing for such hatred to manifest itself in humanity to the point of sadistic, unparelleled murder? Or would we be more apt to believe that there is nothing human about it at it's root? We must not forget that we have a spiritual enemy, that hates all God's people, wheather Jew or Christian. Yes, I believe that it is Satan, and if we let him affect our thinking on who should we blame for all this evil, and we blame each other, then has he not suceeded in his mission to cause hatred even among God's people? Wheather Jew or Christian. We need to be aware of his devices.

[Sephania]

I rented "Life is Beautiful " last night. I still have a huge lump in my throat. But through it all you can see that Carlos had the spirit of Jacob in him. It is this spirit that G-d choose, one that would not only wrestle with G-d but who would persevere no matter what the enemy throws at him. As a light to the rest of the world AND a warning, but how many took notice and said "if G-d would do that do his own beloved what will he do to us? "

Arrogance and spiritual blindness, but they will see some day.

[Plan 9]

I would like to suggest the book, Man's Search for Meaning by Vicktor E. Frankl.
Not everyone is aware that it is a Holocaust account.

[Dominus Fidelis]

How true. And actually, many identify as Messianic Jews, rather than "Christians", also because of the great amount of paganism that has come to be part and parcel of Christianity and Christian observances/practices/understandings of what it is to be a believer. Messianic Jews often eschew such paganism and instead embrace the observances/practices/understandings of the Jew who also believes, which are those found in the Word of G-d and practiced by the Word of G-d, Yeshua. Same Messiah, different way of living. Messianic Jew would be a more accurately descriptive term for such believers.

What Paganism?

[Ann M]

I don't know if this is the right place to ask, but I feel I must... I have a basic knowledge of the Jews, the holocaust etc, so I was quite amazed one night when listening to the Religious talkback show a few years ago when they had a few Jews on speaking about themselves. One referred to friends who called themselves 'Atheist Jews'. I had always thought of Jews as being first and foremost a religious entity.... to me it would be like calling myself an 'Atheist Catholic'? :confused:

[Henaynei]

"Being Jewish" is several things:
1) an ethnic people group - often defined by if one's mother was Jewish, and her mother was Jewish and ... so on...
2) a nationality
3) a religion

Many Jews see themselves as #1 or #1 and #2, a few see themselves as #1 and #3, even fewer see themselves as #1, #2 and #3.

The VAST majority of Jews are only #1. Sad, but true :(

4) One can also convert - these can then be #4, 4+2, or 4+3 or 4+2+3

Shalom

[ShirChadash]

"Being Jewish" is several things:
1) an ethnic people group - often defined by if one's mother was Jewish, and her mother was Jewish and ... so on...
2) a nationality
3) a religion

Many Jews see themselves as #1 or #1 and #2, a few see themselves as #1 and #3, even fewer see themselves as #1, #2 and #3.

The VAST majority of Jews are only #1. Sad, but true :(

4) One can also convert - these can then be #4, 4+2, or 4+3 or 4+2+3

Shalom


*rubs eyes* A math lesson at 7:45 AM. Where's my coffee????

[simchat_torah]

What Paganism?
Do I have to behave myself?





or can I just go at it?

[simchat_torah]

I began to think... "where do I start"... but my thoughts were overwhelmed, so I decided to play a bit coy ;)

[Sephania]

Not here. Isn't there some other thread that this can be addressed in? This subject really needs to stay on topic.

MHO. :)

[ShirChadash]

I agree Zayit. A new thread would be better, if people want to really discuss it in depth, rather than to derail this one.

Quick answer from me, as I don't care to argue: Anything practices/beliefs/understandings not found within "Judaism", which was the one and only faith handed down directly from YHVH Elohim through Yeshua (the Memra) by the power of His Spirit (Ruach Elohim), are pagan in origin.

Duet. 12:30-31
"...be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their g-ds, by saying "How do these nations serve their g-ds? We will do the same. You must not worship the YHVH your G-d in their way..."
Here we can see clearly that not only are we not to worship other g-ds, but specifically we are not to worship OUR G-d in the SAME WAY. We do not worship HIM with the same practices or forms of worship... He has already laid out how we are to worship him, including 'holy days'.

Duet. 18:9&13
"When you enter the land your YHVH is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there"..."You must be blameless before the YHVH your Elohim."
Here we see that we are not to even IMITATE pagan practices. On the contrary, we are called to stive to be blameless.

from this thread: http://www.christianforums.com/t36732&page=1
which deals with some things... or maybe someone could just start a new thread altogether?

[simchat_torah]

I wouldn't mind starting a pagan origins thread. The thread quoted just above this post details a specific form of paganism adopted in, not paganism in general.

shalom,
yafet

[Henaynei]

It occurs to me that such discussion might be best handled in the GA or UTD threads...
/me looks warily at simchat_torah and is grateful for his decision to take the high road and "behave" :prayer: -- LOL Just wiat until I tell Mrs. S_T!!! Will she believe it??:confused: :P :D

[simchat_torah]

*glares*

[koilias]

http://www.lbp.police.uk/publications/Report%202001/Images/dog.jpg

Simchat snarls...

[Henaynei]

/me looks on sweetly knowing that dog has one ferocious bark but won't attack unless attacked :)

[koilias]

* Henaynei looks on sweetly knowing that dog has one ferocious bark but won't attack unless attacked :)
C'mon...Let him loose! I wanna watch the show...

[blessed2]

Do I have to behave myself?
or can I just go at it?
Why the snarl?

I think it's a great idea. If asked as a genuine question.
I have a traditional christian upbringing and for several reasons
have left the denom. churches....feel left wanting and unfulfilled etc.
The Easter thing has always bothered me.....still, I would like to know more about the paganization of the christian church.
Lest someone...with love and patience....were to enlighten me, I would never know the truth and be left without truth and salvation.
Enlightening the lost shouldn't cause a snarl but joy to share eternal life with them.
Know that I hold you all in the upmost esteem as my big brothers and sisters and give ear to your instruction.

Now then,
I watched Shindler's list last night. Heart breaking. What words can possibly express.....
What kind of evil possessed those people? I couldn't treat an animal like that much less a human being!

I remember being young and my friends parents and grandparents were german.
A mini- series called "Holocost" came on. The kids couldn't come out and play that whole week as the parents made them watch it. I remember how the mother cried and cried.
My daughter will watch it with me again tonight. We watched "The Pianist" together.
It makes my heart so heavy.