1 Corinthians 11

[schwartmrs]

I have a question. I was raised Mennonite, as some of you already know...I am currently "growing" into a more Messianic belief.

Here's my question...I've heard teachings on headcoverings for women from a Mennonite perspective, from a non-denom charismatic perspective, and from other various sources and denominations. I've heard many arguments for, and many arguments against.

It has been my observation that a large percentage of Messianics (and indeed, non-Messianic Jews) cover their heads. My own feelings are very confused about this...at this point, I could not argue either way, so don't feel that I am attacking here...

I need a Messianic perspective.

In particular, I would be interested in scriptures that address this...I know about 1 Cor 11, obviously, but can anyone give me any others?

Also, I would like some clarification of the kippah or yarmulke in light of 1 Cor 11, and some scriptures for that.

:help:

Shade

[Hix]

I can tell you the Jewish perspective is that if a lady is married then she is to cover her head always, becuase the hair is seen as something to be enjoyed only by her husband etc. The Yalmulke however would be Talmudic in origin therefor there would be a specific reference to it in the Tanach, rather hints. Just another reason why the Oral Torah is essential.

Covering your head at Shul however I would recommend, it is necessary to have your head covered at such places as the Western wall as you are seen to be "comming into the presence of the L-rd". The same gos for prayers, the head must be covered whether it be by a hat, a kippa or simply by your hand. All this cowing your head and closing your eyes thing is silly IMHO. Seriously though, covering your head may not be a bad idea, its not too big a loss.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[Charlesinflorida]

Hix,

Perhaps you could clarify this for me,

Kippa is Talmudic and not a Torah command. How is it essential then?
Adam was not created with Kippa and lived in the presence of God. Also we do not have indication that Moshe was told to cover his head, only to remove his shoes in the presence of the shekeina.

If we look at Pauls letter, men are NOT to have their head covered, so that would put Pauls teaching in opposiion to Talmud. However I am aware that what Paul says really is not to have your whole head covered, as in a fce vail, or ski mask affair like the Palestinian Terrorist wear.

So I am sort of undecided about Kippa. I wear TziTzi becauase Fringes with a thread of blues is Torah. I tie them Ascanotsi style which is a Tradition.

[Hix]

I said it is hinted at in the Torah, I did not say it wasnt in the Torah. Personally I believe you dont have to wear one 24/7 but during prayer/teshuvah etc it is Jewish tradition to cover your head and thats were the Yalmulke comes in.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[Charlesinflorida]

I said it is hinted at in the Torah, I did not say it wasnt in the Torah. Personally I believe you dont have to wear one 24/7 but during prayer/teshuvah etc it is Jewish tradition to cover your head and thats were the Yalmulke comes in.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~


Thank you Hix,

I will look into Talmud and see what it says.

Charles the Messimaniac

[Hix]

LOL messimaniac.

Actually it is correct to say that G-d is everywere so we are always in G-ds presence, the famous Rabbi Avraham Yaakov Friedman was arrested in 1856 and thrown in prison becuase of a libel and one of his visitors asked him what it was like to be in this horrible prison and he answered "Does the place one is in make a difference? The Almighty's glory fills the earth. He is everywhere. Even here, in this awful place.".
However when we come to G-d in prayer it is us drawing nigh to him so tradition states to cover our heads to show respect.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[schwartmrs]

I guess it's silly, but no matter how many "articles" I've read, or teachings I've heard, it's the perspectives here that matter most to me. I thank you for your responses, and I am anxious for others to "weigh in" with thiers...there is more collective wisdom here than anywhere I've found...I hold you all in the highest esteem.

Shade

[ShirChadash]

Schwartmrs, I keep meaning to add some links and reply for you too, but I am in a rush to prepare for Shabbat and shouldn't have waited until today :sorry:


In a short moment, I'll get on from my other comp and post some links from my bookmarks there.
:hug:

[ShirChadash]

Here are some:

http://www.netzarim.cc/netzarim/headcoverings.htm

http://www.messianichome.org/Articles/2001/spring/modestyamessianicperspective.htm

http://www.messianichome.org/Articles/1996/fall/theimportanceofpurityandmodesty.htm

http://www.eliyah.com/talmidim/headcovering.html

http://www.geocities.com/~rabbi1/headcovering.html

I hope those are useful. :)

[P_G]

Shade

I think that what Hix said is very good stuff. Now my wife does not wear a covering but then she has not got the conviction to do so either. You apparently do.

So I would say do all things in honor of Ha'Shem and if he is telling you to cover that head to honor him then do it. Also be aware of your surroundings. Shaul was certainly discussing a lot of issues in his letters to Corinth. Most of them had to do with people being unseemly in their present surroundings. As Hix said if you went up to the western wall you would have to keep your head covered. Same goes for any place that you are worshiping be aware.

Think of this are you eating meat in the presence of those who eat only vegatables? Maybe it's time to order a salad?

Blessings

Pastor George :wave:

[blessed2]

I can tell you the Jewish perspective is that if a lady is married then she is to cover her head always, becuase the hair is seen as something to be enjoyed only by her husband etc. The Yalmulke however would be Talmudic in origin therefor there would be a specific reference to it in the Tanach, rather hints. Just another reason why the Oral Torah is essential.
Ok, don't beat me up....I'm new. lol
I thought that if a woman had long hair that it served as a covering...????

[Henaynei]

Shalom,

Allow me to preface that I am a woman and gentile by birth. My husband is Jewish and we live a Jewish lifestyle that continues to grow in Torah observance and submission to the wisdom of the Fathers.

I have been covering for about 6 years. I cover from the time I arise until I climb back into bed. The only exception is Shabbat as hubby and I spend that day alone together and there is little to no risk of being around others.

I was under conviction about covering for several years before I actually did it. I needed to be certain of why and how before I did it. I was very uncomfortable in any approach that I saw as doing it half way. So I looked, studied, prayed, watched and waited. And finally I was ready.

I completely cover my hair with an opaque snood or similar accessory because:
1) it is what our honored mothers did in modesty, honor, humility and submission (see the Torah scriptures about *uncovering* a woman suspected of adultry being an act of shaming her.
2) it is commanded in Ketuvim Natzrim (NT) - hair can't be the covering because it would have patently unnecessary to discuss it as the vast majority of women HAVE hair - therefore it must be talking of covering the hair (also supported in Ketuvim where it speaks of the hair being the "glory of the woman")
3) hair of a woman is well known as a sensual turn-on for men - just look at the hairdresser industry!!! Everything of mine/me that is sensual belongs totally and exclusively to my husband. My hair nontheless. For the sake of g-dly modesty I completely cover my hair.
4) a wig does not surfice. In many cases the wig is more becoming than the actual hair. Wearing a wig hides the fact that one is submitted. I would no more wear a wig than I would hide my wedding ring.
5) it is a constant reminder of both my husband and my G-d, and my relationship to each.

Shalom,

Henaynei

[blessed2]

5) it is a constant reminder of both my husband and my G-d, and my relationship to each.
Thank you, Henaynei,
you are always so insightful.

[blessed2]

1 Corinthians 11
15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

Question:
Is long hair a glory because it is a covering?
Shielding our faces and upper torso from the angels?

Thought this would spark some interesting thought.

[Henaynei]

1 Corinthians 11
15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

Question:
Is long hair a glory because it is a covering?
Shielding our faces and upper torso from the angels?

Thought this would spark some interesting thought.Just applying a little logic here -- if long hair is a sufficient covering for my head, is it also a sufficient covering for my upper torso? If I need no further covering for my head why do I need to wear clothing on my upper body??

Another thought:
Here we see that the hair can not be the covering..... if it was then the hair of a man would be considered covering.......

1Cor 11:6 For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is (i.e. since it is) shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered. 7 For a man indeed ought not to have his head covered, because he is the image and glory of God, but the woman is the glory of the man.

There is thought that the "covering" in both cases meant full hair covering - if you replace "covering" with "fully covering the hair" all makes much more sense.

[blessed2]

Just applying a little logic here -- if long hair is a sufficient covering for my head, is it also a sufficient covering for my upper torso? If I need no further covering for my head why do I need to wear clothing on my upper body??LOL I couldn't, I have thin fine hair.
but if you look down upon me it's like a veil.?????

if it was then the hair of a man would be considered covering.......

Could the difference be the long and short hair?

1 Corinthians 11
7A man ought not to cover his head,[1 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1COR+11:7&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on#footnote_102770326_1)] since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man.

Footnote:
It is for obedience that I wear long hair for if it wasn't....
being in the south, I can't tell you how i've daydreamed of
having my hair shaved down into a flat top during those 110 degree days.

What would be a proper head covering then? Please explain as I've probly never
see it for myself.

As always....thank you.

[Henaynei]

What would be a proper head covering then? Please explain as I've probly never see it for myself.
I have bumped up a thread where we were discussing this issue. If you review the poll you will see that there were varying views :)

Here is a collection of links I have gathered over the years. Be warned some may not work and others may be informative but not of a theology that I espouse. Happy learning!

http://associate.com/ministry_files/The_Reading_Room/Yeshua_Messianic_Judaism/Womens_headcoverings_a_Messi.shtml
http://www.bible.ovc.edu/terry/articles/headcovr.htm
http://www.tznius.com/cgi-bin/index.pl
http://www.expage.com/page/hardtoexplain
http://www.eliyah.com/talmidim/headcovering.html
http://www.covenanter.org/Attire/Headcoverings/headcoverings.htm
http://www.headcovers.com/index.html
Covering Your Hair in Jewish law (http://members.aol.com/LazerA/headcovering.htm)
http://www.hebroots.com/bluebull.gif The Torah Obligation to Cover your Hair (http://www.batkol.virtual.co.il/crown.htm#torah obligation) http://www.hebroots.com/bluebull.gif Why Women may wear a Shaitel (Wig) (http://www.batkol.virtual.co.il/crown.htm#why wear shaitel) http://www.hebroots.com/bluebull.gif Why a Married Women Covers Her Hair (http://www.batkol.virtual.co.il/crown.htm#why married cover hair) http://www.hebroots.com/bluebull.gif The Laws of Covering Your Hair (http://www.batkol.virtual.co.il/crown.htm#laws of) http://www.hebroots.com/bluebull.gif Who Should Cover their Hair ?? (http://www.batkol.virtual.co.il/crown.htm#who should) http://www.hebroots.com/bluebull.gif The Obligation of a Bride to Cover Her Hair (http://www.batkol.virtual.co.il/crown.htm#bride) http://www.hebroots.com/bluebull.gif Single Women and Hair Covering (http://www.batkol.virtual.co.il/crown.htm#single women) http://www.hebroots.com/bluebull.gif How Much Hair Should be Covered ?? (http://www.batkol.virtual.co.il/crown.htm#how much) http://www.hebroots.com/bluebull.gif Covering Your Hair in Private and in Public (http://www.batkol.virtual.co.il/crown.htm#public & private) http://www.hebroots.com/bluebull.gif Using Hats to Cover Your Hair (http://www.batkol.virtual.co.il/crown.htm#hats) http://www.hebroots.com/bluebull.gif Using Scarves to Cover Your Hair (http://www.batkol.virtual.co.il/crown.htm#tichels) http://www.hebroots.com/bluebull.gif Using Wigs to Cover Your Hair (http://www.batkol.virtual.co.il/crown.htm#wig)

[ShirChadash]

These are non-Jewish sources, but some of them should address the hair-vs-fabric question. Basically, if you do an indepth study of the GK it is obvious that the word for covering used indicates a difference between something (fabric) which should be placed upon the head (which can be removed) and the hair which, left long, naturally does cover somewhat as well. I would answer you directly myself, but I confess it has been years since I looked into all this, and I too did a thorough study and waited until I was ready, long after I was convicted to cover. So... I have lost a lot of the details myself, but I could get into them again if you reallllllllly want me to ;) and get back to you. I am just hoping these links might help you as you study it through:


http://truthinheart.com/EarlyOberlinCD/CD/Doctrine/BeVeiled.htm

http://crossover.ellison.net/HeadcoveringIntro.htm

http://www.covenanter.org/Attire/Headcoverings/headcoverings.htm
(a site with a few URL's to commentaries on 1 Cor. 11)

[blessed2]

Thank you my wise sisters.

[ShirChadash]

OOOH OOOH Here is a portion you might want to see:




2. The woman's long hair takes the place of a veiling.

(See exposition on verse 15).

In verse 15 of 1 Cor. 11, Paul is, in part, appealing to an illustration from nature (the long hair for women versus the short hair for men) to clarify the necessity of the veiling. Certainly he isn't contradicting everything he had said thus far in verses 3-13 about the importance of the veiled head. Again, the word translated 'covering' in verse 15 is peribolaion, which means "something cast around", as opposed to the word translated covering, uncovered, etc. in the previous verses - katakalupto, which means "something which covers completely and hangs down". Paul obviously used an entirely different word in verse 15 so as to not confuse the natural hair covering with the veiling.

If one thinks that her hair is the only covering implied in this chapter, they need only replace the word 'covering' in verses 4, 5, 6, 7, and 13 with the word 'hair', and they will quickly see how absurd such a notion is.

The final blow to this argument is found in verse 6, where Paul says "If a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn". The word 'also' (kai) can't but be implying an artificial covering besides the hair. To paraphrase this verse with this assumption in mind, it would read, "If her head is not covered with hair, then let her hair be cut." How can you cut something that isn't there?! The long hair alone is not the sign of authority spoken of in verse 10 since anyone, male or female, Christian or non-Christian, could have it.



This was from the "Let Her Be Veiled" article, in the section here:
http://truthinheart.com/EarlyOberlinCD/CD/Doctrine/BeVeiled.htm#Chapter%209

HTH

[blessed2]

Sister's, you are as always insightful, wise and patient.

[ShirChadash]

Sister's, you are as always insightful, wise and patient.
Well, yer just a sweetheart, blessed2! (psst., I'm personally none of the ^ above, but I do love discussing this stuff with my sisters! :D )

:hug:

[schwartmrs]

I want to thank you all very much for your input...I've been struggling with this for many years. :prayer:

Since you all have helped me so much with this, I feel it's only fair of me to tell you what I decided. :pink:

In my own home, I cover...from morning till night.

Hubby is not comfortable with me covering in public, so I'm going to stick with the headband in public.

The only "description" of a covering for women is in the exegesis of 1Cor 11, and that sounds like a veil to me...so I have made coverings for myself and my daughter that resemble veils and cover my head, neck, shoulders, and upper back.

I see nothing in the scriptures that say that the coverings have to be plain or drab...the ones I have made are beautiful and colorful and "joyful." :clap: :clap:

For me...for now...this fits.

I have been covered for....ummmmm....well, since Sabbath started, yesterday....it feels good...it feels right. In fact, when I took it off at bedtime last night, I felt "naked"!! :blush:

Thank you all so much for your input!

Praise G-d that He has brought yet another joyful thing into my life with Him!!

Shade

[Henaynei]

I want to thank you all very much for your input...I've been struggling with this for many years. :prayer:

Since you all have helped me so much with this, I feel it's only fair of me to tell you what I decided. :pink:

In my own home, I cover...from morning till night.

Hubby is not comfortable with me covering in public, so I'm going to stick with the headband in public.

The only "description" of a covering for women is in the exegesis of 1Cor 11, and that sounds like a veil to me...so I have made coverings for myself and my daughter that resemble veils and cover my head, neck, shoulders, and upper back.

I see nothing in the scriptures that say that the coverings have to be plain or drab...the ones I have made are beautiful and colorful and "joyful." :clap: :clap:

For me...for now...this fits.

I have been covered for....ummmmm....well, since Sabbath started, yesterday....it feels good...it feels right. In fact, when I took it off at bedtime last night, I felt "naked"!! :blush:

Thank you all so much for your input!

Praise G-d that He has brought yet another joyful thing into my life with Him!!

Shade
This is wonderful!!! B"H!!