The Original Church

[Victrixa]

According to Lutheranism, which is the original church (the Church founded by Christ)? Is it the Catholic or the Orthodox Church? Is it another church? Or none of the churches that we know today?

The Lutheran Church practices ancient liturgy and believes in the Real Presence as well as in a form of Tradition. That's why I'm wondering.... Any of you who know Church history very well?

Thank you! :)

Pax Christi,

Caroline

[Protoevangel]

It was the Church of all believers.

Later it took on the name Catholic.
Then it was Catholic and Orthodox.
Even later, it became Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant.

But the names and organizations never have and never will contain the Church. The True Church always has been and always will be the invisible Church of all who are in Christ.

[Victrixa]

Were there other groups beside the Orthodox and the Catholics? For example, the Vaudois? (or other groups who weren't heretics but Christians who loved the Gospel but who aren't as well known)

Thanks for the reply Danhead. :)

[Lotar]

According to Lutheranism, which is the original church (the Church founded by Christ)? Is it the Catholic or the Orthodox Church? Is it another church? Or none of the churches that we know today?
The original Church was founded by God with Adam. ;)

Lutherans do not believe that some organization is the Church Christ founded. As for the faith, it is the Lutheran faith, not Catholic or Orthodox; since it is the Lutheran belief that Rome broke from Wittenburg, not the other way around.



The Lutheran Church practices ancient liturgy and believes in the Real Presence as well as in a form of Tradition. That's why I'm wondering.... Any of you who know Church history very well?

Thank you! :)

Pax Christi,

Caroline

I have a working knowledge of Church history, Latin and Greek.

[Protoevangel]

Were there other groups beside the Orthodox and the Catholics? For example, the Vaudois? (or other groups who weren't heretics but Christians who loved the Gospel but who aren't as well known)

Thanks for the reply Danhead. :)Yes, wherever the Word and Sacrament were (are) rightly taught and administered, there the Church was (is).

[Victrixa]

Yes, wherever the Word and Sacrament were (are) rightly taught and administered, there the Church was (is).

This reminds me of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus.If the Word and Sacrement are not rightly taught and administered, are 'they' real Christians who are in error just a little bit? Like today, for example, with all the different denominations.

Did all the first Christians believe in the Real Presence? It seems that some Early Church Fathers did not believe in the Real Presence and only in a symbolic Eucharist. I don't remember which ECFs though. I have a lot to learn... :scratch:

Whoever has an answer, thanks in advance! :)

- Caroline

[Qoheleth]

Yes, wherever the Word and Sacrament were (are) rightly taught and administered, there the Church was (is).
Amen, This is the life within the Gospel. We receive the grace of our Lord through the most holy sacraments. They are forgiveness and life.

[filosofer]

This reminds me of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus.If the Word and Sacrement are not rightly taught and administered, are 'they' real Christians who are in error just a little bit? Like today, for example, with all the different denominations.
In theology we describe this as felicitious inconsistency. This means that even though they don't ahve the full message straight (ortho-), God still uses the proclamation of his Word to bring about his saving purposes. Even Paul, when discussing the troublemakers with whom he had serious problems, rejoiced that Christ was being preached (Philippians 1).

Did all the first Christians believe in the Real Presence? It seems that some Early Church Fathers did not believe in the Real Presence and only in a symbolic Eucharist. I don't remember which ECFs though.
The "symbolic" view is primarily a Reformation position advocated by Hoen, and then advanced by Zwingli, especially after 1524. Most non-Lutheran Protestants today (whether Calvinist or Arminian) follow Zwingli regarding the Lord's Supper.

[Bradford]

The "symbolic" view is primarily a Reformation position advocated by Hoen, and then advanced by Zwingli, especially after 1524. Most non-Lutheran Protestants today (whether Calvinist or Arminian) follow Zwingli regarding the Lord's Supper.
It is worth pointing out, though, that Calvin and Zwingli's views of the Supper were different. Calvin thought of a "Spiritual Communion", that while the physical elements were nothing more than bread and wine, those who took of the Sacrament worthily, recieved spiritually the Body and Blood of Christ. Zwingli, however, advocated a mere remembrance view, that the Supper was done just to remember Christ, and did not have any spiritual benefits.

(Or so I think...)

[filosofer]

It is worth pointing out, though, that Calvin and Zwingli's views of the Supper were different. Calvin thought of a "Spiritual Communion", that while the physical elements were nothing more than bread and wine, those who took of the Sacrament worthily, recieved spiritually the Body and Blood of Christ. Zwingli, however, advocated a mere remembrance view, that the Supper was done just to remember Christ, and did not have any spiritual benefits.

(Or so I think...)
The distinction between Zwingli and Calvin is that Zwingli taught that the person spiritually ascended into heaven to partake spiritually of the Body and Blood. In essence there is agreement, that it is only a remembrance meal. The difference revolving about where the "spiritual benefits" were received.

[JVAC]

This reminds me of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus.If the Word and Sacrement are not rightly taught and administered, are 'they' real Christians who are in error just a little bit? Like today, for example, with all the different denominations.

Did all the first Christians believe in the Real Presence? It seems that some Early Church Fathers did not believe in the Real Presence and only in a symbolic Eucharist. I don't remember which ECFs though. I have a lot to learn... :scratch:

Whoever has an answer, thanks in advance! :)

- Caroline
The apostles and early fathers are in agreement on the "real pressence". We can see in writtings such as St. Paul's epistle to the corinthians, St. John's Gospel, The Synoptic Gospels, allusions in the prophets, writtings by St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Iraneus of Lyon. All of the accounts always press on to the Real Pressence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament of the Altar. I have yet to read, which doesn't exclude other "fathers" from writting it, where they support spiritual pressence and would like to have a cite myself.

Also, why are people like Lotar, Filo, and bradford changing icons?

-James

[Thursday]

I have yet to read, which doesn't exclude other "fathers" from writting it, where they support spiritual pressence and would like to have a cite myself.
Hi JVAC,

There is a claim that Tertullian believed in a symbolic presence. But if you take a close look at the writing these people cite, there really is no evidence. It is quite a stretch, IMHO. Other than that "example," I have not heard of any other ECF used to argue a symbolic presence.

[Victrixa]

Also, why are people like Lotar, Filo, and bradford changing icons?

James, I don't know about Lotar and Filo, but Bradford is converting to Catholicism. :) I hope Bradford doesn't mind my sharing this. He started a thread in OBOB in which he shares his testimony. :)

[ByzantineDixie]

If I recall correctly filo's icon has always been generic Christian...I think he shared early on why that was...but I can't remember....so no change for him.-----R

[Lotar]

The apostles and early fathers are in agreement on the "real pressence". We can see in writtings such as St. Paul's epistle to the corinthians, St. John's Gospel, The Synoptic Gospels, allusions in the prophets, writtings by St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Iraneus of Lyon. All of the accounts always press on to the Real Pressence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament of the Altar. I have yet to read, which doesn't exclude other "fathers" from writting it, where they support spiritual pressence and would like to have a cite myself.

Nestorius believed in a spiritual presence. The Sacramentarians make a severe Christological error, which is distinctly Nestorian, ie, dividing Christ's two natures.



Also, why are people like Lotar, Filo, and bradford changing icons?

-James

Filo has always had the generic Christian icon.
Bradford is swimming the Tiber.

If you've kept up with my posts, you probably know what's up with me, but I'm not ready to talk about it yet.

[ByzantineDixie]

What does "swimming the Tiber" actually mean? I know Bradford is now going RCC but what does this expression mean in relationship to that?


Thanks-----R

[filosofer]

Babylonian Captivity? ;)

[SPALATIN]

What does "swimming the Tiber" actually mean? I know Bradford is now going RCC but what does this expression mean in relationship to that?


Thanks-----R
I think it means he was changing to Roman Catholic and since the Tiber river is in Rome he would mean that it is definite.

[JVAC]

Hi JVAC,

There is a claim that Tertullian believed in a symbolic presence. But if you take a close look at the writing these people cite, there really is no evidence. It is quite a stretch, IMHO. Other than that "example," I have not heard of any other ECF used to argue a symbolic presence.
Thanks for the cite!! The only thing I read from Tertullian about the Blessed Sacrament was in lines about; people shouldn't abstain from the Holy Eucharist while they are fasting. I believe it would be a stretch unless the writing was from his heretical time.



I have to say the Swimming the Tiber into Babylonian Captivity has just made it into my esoteric church jokes :D.

Niel I am trying to look at your recent posts, but I am having trouble with these stupid lab computers, It would be awesome if you could pm me or email me, but if you don't want to I understand, I'll keep looking in the mean time.



Glory be to the Father, and to the Son and to the Holy Ghost; as it was in the beginning, is now and evermore shall be!!! :crossrc:

-James

[ByzantineDixie]

I think it means he was changing to Roman Catholic and since the Tiber river is in Rome he would mean that it is definite.Well, this explains everything. Now, do you want to know why I couldn't make that connection. I went through 8 years of Catholic grade school. Had a science class for a brief time in the 4th grade...but other than that our daily schedule include Religion, Math, Reading and Spelling in the morning and Geography ALL AFTERNOON! I HATED geography. I didn't care where iron ore came from and didn't care what mountain range staddled what countries. :sick: In rebellion I have managed to purge most of that teaching. Accordingly...I am a geography idiot!



I have to say the Swimming the Tiber into Babylonian Captivity has just made it into my esoteric church jokes :D.
Absolutely hysterical...I also plan on putting it in my repetoire!

:D Rose

[Qoheleth]

Absolutely hysterical...I also plan on putting it in my repetoire!
After I get my breathe back from laughing, Im going to add this to my repetoire also

Funny, funny

[SPALATIN]

Well, this explains everything. Now, do you want to know why I couldn't make that connection. I went through 8 years of Catholic grade school. Had a science class for a brief time in the 4th grade...but other than that our daily schedule include Religion, Math, Reading and Spelling in the morning and Geography ALL AFTERNOON! I HATED geography. I didn't care where iron ore came from and didn't care what mountain range staddled what countries. :sick: In rebellion I have managed to purge most of that teaching. Accordingly...I am a geography idiot!

Absolutely hysterical...I also plan on putting it in my repetoire!

:D Rose
I think there may actually be a book on the shelves of bookstores called. . .

Geography for Idiots. If not I will have one published just for you Rose.

[ByzantineDixie]

Scott, how about I just ask YOU my geography questions...then I won't even have to read the Dummies book! Besides, you seem to already know a few things. I am guessin' you're a good resource.

Qoheleth...hey, the Lutheran icon looks mighty good by your name! ;)

:hug: Rose

[filosofer]

Rose, you mean you have taken those Extension courses, and you don't know geography? Wow! Quick quiz: Is Kansas City in Kansas or Missouri? ;) :D

[ByzantineDixie]

Quick quiz: Is Kansas City in Kansas or Missouri? ;) :D
Yes! I'll take that "A" please. ;) -----R

[filosofer]

You mean you take the lesser of two? ;) And smaller to boot?

Yep, you are not too good with geography! :D

=========
[EDITED for explanation]

Rose, we should let people know that there are two Kansas Cities, one in Kansas (KCK) and one in Missouri (KCMO). KCMO is the larger of the two, and the basis for the Chiefs and Royals names. Rivalry across the stateline is quite strong (I live on Missouri side, work on Kansas side, but neither in KCK nor KCMO). But most of it is good-natured, as is my teasing of Rose.

[KagomeShuko]

Rose, you mean you have taken those Extension courses, and you don't know geography? Wow! Quick quiz: Is Kansas City in Kansas or Missouri? ;) :D
Quick quiz: Is Texarkana in Louisiana, Texas, or Arkansas?

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[ByzantineDixie]

Rose, we should let people know that there are two Kansas Cities, one in Kansas (KCK) and one in Missouri (KCMO). :D Well, I said that in my answer to the quiz, didn't I??? ^_^

KCMO is the larger of the two, and the basis for the Chiefs and Royals names. Rivalry across the stateline is quite strong (I live on Missouri side, work on Kansas side, but neither in KCK nor KCMO). But most of it is good-natured, as is my teasing of Rose.As a former KCMO resident (We literally lived two blocks from the state line) I can affirm the rivalry. My husband's family is on the Kansas side and couldn't understand why we wanted to live on the "less desireable" Missouri side!!! ;)

Quick quiz: Is Texarkana in Louisiana, Texas, or Arkansas?
Oh Sco-ott!!! :help:

:D Rose

[SPALATIN]

:D Well, I said that in my answer to the quiz, didn't I??? ^_^

As a former KCMO resident (We literally lived two blocks from the state line) I can affirm the rivalry. My husband's family is on the Kansas side and couldn't understand why we wanted to live on the "less desireable" Missouri side!!! ;)


Quick quiz: Is Texarkana in Louisiana, Texas, or Arkansas?


Oh Sco-ott!!! :help:

:D Rose
A city that is lies directly on the boarder of Texas and Arkansas hence the name. Now for some extra trivia. What 1963 movie featuring Jackie Gleason was set in that town?

[KagomeShuko]

A city that is lies directly on the boarder of Texas and Arkansas hence the name. Now for some extra trivia. What 1963 movie featuring Jackie Gleason was set in that town?
Papa's Delicate Condition (I cheated, I used Google!)

Anyway, my family was there a few years ago when we evacuated in case of a hurricane hitting Lake Charles. Nice little place. . .we were in the Arkansas part of it.

Hmm. .and one of the "ads by Goooooogle" right now says "Lutheran church on eBay."

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[Rechtgläubig]

A city that is lies directly on the boarder of Texas and Arkansas hence the name.
Two cities. One is in Texas, the other in Arkansas. :D

[KagomeShuko]

Two cities. One is in Texas, the other in Arkansas. :D
Yep! Yay! I've been to the one in Arkansas. . .but not in Texas.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[KagomeShuko]

A city that is lies directly on the boarder of Texas and Arkansas hence the name. Now for some extra trivia. What 1963 movie featuring Jackie Gleason was set in that town?Well, I think Recht got it a bit better, though I gave it to you ;)

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[SPALATIN]

Well, I think Recht got it a bit better, though I gave it to you ;)

Stein Auf!
Bridget
Kansas City is the same thing. YOu have really one city but because the river and state line divide the two they are two cities with separate governments for both city and state.

[Rechtgläubig]

Well, I think Recht got it a bit better, though I gave it to you ;)

Stein Auf!
Bridget
LOL. "Don't Mess With Texas!"

:D

[SPALATIN]

LOL. "Don't Mess With Texas!"

:D
What's that song by George Strait. "All my exes live in Texas" I love that song.

[ElizabethHope]

To everyone in this thread...thanks for knowing so much! I'm a new Lutheran and have learned a lot from this website, let alone this website! THANKS!!!

[SPALATIN]

To everyone in this thread...thanks for knowing so much! I'm a new Lutheran and have learned a lot from this website, let alone this website! THANKS!!!
Glad you were able to get so much from this forum. We are not perfect, but we are forgiven.

[ByzantineDixie]

To everyone in this thread...thanks for knowing so much! I'm a new Lutheran and have learned a lot from this website, let alone this website! THANKS!!!
Welcome, ElizabethHope!!! So glad you found us. :wave:

This is a great place to discuss and learn!

Peace

Rose

[Victrixa]

Wow, this thread has gone way off topic! :D Anybody else have something to share about the original church? ;)

[SPALATIN]

Wow, this thread has gone way off topic! :D Anybody else have something to share about the original church? ;)
I will only post a link that I was directed too this morning that has some information regarding the Catholic church. YOu can decide for yourself about the Original church. http://www.inplainsite.org/html/catholicism.html

[ORTHA]

For complete information on the Original Church go to OriginalChurch org or com.

Let me know your thoughts and feelings.

MANY BLESSINGS

[ORTHA]

Please see OriginalChurch.org for the complete story. Especially read the book online about the Original Church (Spiritis). Then please send back your thoughts and feelings.

Your thoughts and feelings are what matter most for you.