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Discussion and Debate
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Ethics & Morality
Free will and determinism
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<blockquote data-quote="Bradskii" data-source="post: 77664412" data-attributes="member: 412388"><p>That's simply not true. Back to the guitar string...</p><p></p><p>There is a direct connection between that happening and what I had for breakfast. I broke the string, I needed to buy another, there is a guitar shop 15 minutes away, I went there, I passed a baker and I bought a croissant. There is a direct connection. The one was the cause of the other. But obviously <em>not the only cause</em>.</p><p></p><p>There are, as I said, an infinite number of events that needed to happen for me to end up eating a croissant. I picked up the phone in a pub in London in 1982 just at the right moment when a particular agent answered and had a job available for which I was accepted and then met a guy with whom I became friends and he, through various events happening just as they did, got a job overseas and I used the same agent as he did, worked at the same company, met another guy from Australia, visited him there in '84, decided to emigrate, ended up living where I am now and...ended up eating a croissant for breakfast last week.</p><p></p><p>If none of those events, and countless other ones, had happened then I wouldn't have had that breakfast. We cannot possibly know all of them. But we can draw a line between a lot of the events in our past that determined the present. And from that we can see that all events are determined. Because we literally can't find any that are not.</p><p></p><p>I'm not saying that I have found a single example of deterministic behaviour and that therefore proves determinism. I'm saying that wherever I look all I see is cause and effect. I see nothing but that. No-one has ever shown anything to the contrary. In your analogy I'm not looking at a red brick. I'm looking at an actual house made of red bricks. I've walked around it, examined it, checked it out from all angles. It's nothing but red bricks.</p><p></p><p>Can I prove there's one that isn't? Well, there may be one tucked in a corner that perhaps isn't, but I can't find it. So no, I won't say it's a proven fact that they're all red. But if you know where there's one that isn't then please show me. Otherwise...it's a red brick house.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Bradskii, post: 77664412, member: 412388"] That's simply not true. Back to the guitar string... There is a direct connection between that happening and what I had for breakfast. I broke the string, I needed to buy another, there is a guitar shop 15 minutes away, I went there, I passed a baker and I bought a croissant. There is a direct connection. The one was the cause of the other. But obviously [I]not the only cause[/I]. There are, as I said, an infinite number of events that needed to happen for me to end up eating a croissant. I picked up the phone in a pub in London in 1982 just at the right moment when a particular agent answered and had a job available for which I was accepted and then met a guy with whom I became friends and he, through various events happening just as they did, got a job overseas and I used the same agent as he did, worked at the same company, met another guy from Australia, visited him there in '84, decided to emigrate, ended up living where I am now and...ended up eating a croissant for breakfast last week. If none of those events, and countless other ones, had happened then I wouldn't have had that breakfast. We cannot possibly know all of them. But we can draw a line between a lot of the events in our past that determined the present. And from that we can see that all events are determined. Because we literally can't find any that are not. I'm not saying that I have found a single example of deterministic behaviour and that therefore proves determinism. I'm saying that wherever I look all I see is cause and effect. I see nothing but that. No-one has ever shown anything to the contrary. In your analogy I'm not looking at a red brick. I'm looking at an actual house made of red bricks. I've walked around it, examined it, checked it out from all angles. It's nothing but red bricks. Can I prove there's one that isn't? Well, there may be one tucked in a corner that perhaps isn't, but I can't find it. So no, I won't say it's a proven fact that they're all red. But if you know where there's one that isn't then please show me. Otherwise...it's a red brick house. [/QUOTE]
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