Water and Spirit

jonojim1337 · May 4, 2024

I don't understand how 'Christians' seem to miss this. Are these the modern day Pharasees, who can't see that YHWH means "behold the hand behold the nail"?

I think there is redundant information that one is not 'saved' or 'born again' until one has stopped sinning. If you are living in sin, you are not born again, you are still in your sinful nature. Most 'Christians' are in the category of the dirt where the seed was planted among the tares. Jesus said, only when the seed grows above the tares, will it bear fruit.

So how are we born again? Jesus said, by water and Spirit.

I will let you fill me in what you think that means until I make further bold statements.

Citizen of the Kingdom · May 4, 2024

1 John 1:8-10
If we say that we have no sin then we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned then we make Him a liar and the Word is not in us

Sin lived in habitually is definitely living in the flesh but no one in this life is free from sin

Citizen of the Kingdom · May 4, 2024

jonojim1337 said:
Jesus said, only when the seed grows above the tares, will it bear fruit.

Could we get a scripture reference for this please

jonojim1337 · May 4, 2024

Citizen of the Kingdom said:
1 John 1:8-10
If we say that we have no sin then we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned then we make Him a liar and the Word is not in us

Sin lived in habitually is definitely living in the flesh but no one in this life is free from sin

Once you know what sin is, you will avoid it. If you don't know what it is, you will keep doing it.

I challange you that one is not completely free from sin until one is born again. Such as those with the seal, who have never defiled themselves with women.

jonojim1337 · May 4, 2024

Citizen of the Kingdom said:
Could we get a scripture reference for this please

I'm sure you know the parable of the sower. I think if you're honest with yourself you will see that the four types of dirt are four stages of Christian life. Only in the final stage, where the thornbushes do not choke the plants, do you bear fruit.

Edit: "Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,"

This verse is translated differently but I think this is the correct translation. One's salvation needs to be worked out - with fear and trembling - because before that you do not know right from wrong, and cannot walk in the fullness of God that we are called to.

Citizen of the Kingdom · May 4, 2024

jonojim1337 said:
I'm sure you know the parable of the sower. I think if you're honest with yourself you will see that the four types of dirt are four stages of Christian life. Only in the final stage, where the thornbushes do not choke the plants, do you bear fruit (work out your salvation).

I agree that the good ground is where the fruit is produced. Some of the earlier stages of tares grown are those sublime conditions of the mind that are most deeply implanted. Like the little foxes in the vineyard they need special attention to.
Thorn Bushes on the other hand are cares of the world and need to be risen above.

Aviel · May 4, 2024

jonojim1337 said:
If you are living in sin, you are not born again,

What is the context of "living in sin" that denotes that a person is not truly born again?

How long do you have to "live in it" so that you are revealed as not truly born again?

The reason i ask, is because if you have NETFLIX, (Reader) and you are watching a Netflix movie or series, then you are seeing sex, partial nudity, and extreme sensuality.

or..

If you watched GAME OF THRONESm all 7 yrs, or 1 yr, then you saw Rape, incest, every week.

So, if you are doing that, are you "living in sin" while you are doing that, willfully or does that no count?

The point is..
There are people who are very self righteous, and they have parts of their lives that are very carnal, and these typically are the ones who want to condemn the rest of you as "living in sin" or "you've lost your salvation".

So, what you do with these carnal finger pointing types, is you just ignore them, and search out Believers who have a clue, and can help you grow a little deeper within your Christianity.

jonojim1337 · May 4, 2024

Aviel said:
What is the context of "living in sin" that denotes that a person is not truly born again?

How long do you have to "live in it" so that you are revealed as not truly born again?

I would compare it to having a flu. Your body doesn't work fully and you call in from work.

Aviel said:
The reason i ask, is because if you have NETFLIX, (Reader) and you are watching a Netflix movie or series, then you are seeing sex, partial nudity, and extreme sensuality.

or..

If you watched GAME OF THRONESm all 7 yrs, or 1 yr, then you saw Rape, incest, every week.

So, if you are doing that, are you "living in sin" while you are doing that, willfully or does that no count?

Do you enjoy watching sin? In that case you have a sinful nature.

Aviel said:
The point is..
There are people who are very self righteous, and they have parts of their lives that are very carnal, and these typically are the ones who want to condemn the rest of you as "living in sin" or "you've lost your salvation".

So, what you do with these carnal finger pointing types, is you just ignore them, and search out Believers who have a clue, and can help you grow a little deeper within your Christianity.

No the difference is that I believe in God's ability to actually deliver from sin, sinful natures, the whole lot, and that is done through the workings of water and Spirit.

jonojim1337 · May 4, 2024

Also I don't think that because some material has the mentioned content - the Bible itself is full of it - that it makes it sin or sinful to watch. It's the undertones that count.

Aviel · May 4, 2024

jonojim1337 said:
I would compare it to having a flu.

You would compare "living in sin" to "the Flu'?

Hummmm.

jonojim1337 said:
Do you enjoy watching sin?

All sin is related to the Eye, the Ear, the Heart, and the imagination.

The reason that people sin, is because they have a sin nature that desires to be fed some Lust.

jonojim1337 said:
In that case you have a sinful nature.

Every person is born "in Adam" and "in adam we all sin".

To be delivered from this, is to be "Born.... again".

Jesus said.. "YOU must be....born......again" and that is not by water, but "by my SPIRIT sayeth' the LORD".

jonojim1337 said:
No the difference is that I believe in God's ability to actually deliver from sin, sinful natures,

The CHRISTian has received a "new Nature" a "Divine" nature.... so that is more than "deliverance",

2 Peter 2:4

= that is to become a "NEW CREATION" "in Christ"... as... "ONE with GOD".

jonojim1337 · May 4, 2024

Aviel said:
You would compare "living in sin" to "the Flu'?

Hummmm.

Yeah, it's usually, "nothing big".

Aviel said:
All sin is related to the Eye, the Ear, the Heart, and the imagination.

The reason that people sin, is because they have a sin nature that desires to be fed some Lust.

Correctomundo.

Aviel said:
Every person is born "in Adam" and "in adam we all sin".

To be delivered from this, is to be "Born.... again".

Jesus said.. "YOU must be....born......again" and that is not by water, but "by my SPIRIT sayeth' the LORD".

He did say by water and Spirit, don't be stupid, but only a true adept of the Law can understand the water.

Aviel said:
The CHRISTian has received a "new Nature" a "Divine" nature.... so that is more than "deliverance",

2 Peter 2:4

= that is to become a "NEW CREATION" "in Christ"... as... "ONE with GOD".

Yes that is the definition of salvation. However the salvation has to be worked out, with fear and trembling.

This is not doing good works to appease a far away God. It is understanding what salvation _actually_ is, and from that understanding, the individual can be healed.

Aviel · May 4, 2024

jonojim1337 said:
Yeah, it's usually, "nothing big".

It is to God.

Try to see it from His point of view.

That can be a real eye opener the first time you try it.

Start today. @jonojim1337

jonojim1337 said:
He did say by water and Spirit, don't be stupid, but only a true adept of the Law can understand the water.

You seem to be trained by Catholics, and that explains why you dont understand the Cross of Christ.

I didnt say you were a Catholic, i said you were trained by them.

By their Theology, as Catholics and JW's are "all about the water".

jonojim1337 said:
Yes that is the definition of salvation. However the salvation has to be worked out, with fear and trembling.

Jesus is Salvation., not you trying to do it. @jonojim1337 .
Understand?
He finished it for you on the Cross, 2000 yrs ago.
When you understand this, you'll have the understanding of God's Redemption.

And regarding "working out your salvation"..

Here is a way to see that verse in the correct light.

"work out YOUR Salvation (that you have IF you are born again and are not just water baptized and religious).....in AWE and WONDER">

= replace "fear and trembling" with "AWE and WONDER" as that is the idea.

So, how do you work it out?

First you have to understand that Jesus is Salvation, and God gave what He finished on the Cross, as the "Gift of Salvation".

And being born again is the PROOF a person has it, and that is not water baptism, tho the "water cults" would teach you to disagree.

So, now having "the Gift of Salvation" you are to learn how to exist within it, according to revelation knowledge.

That is how you "work it out".

jonojim1337 · May 4, 2024

Aviel said:
Jesus is Salvation., not you trying to do it. @jonojim1337 .
Understand?
He finished it for you on the Cross, 2000 yrs ago.
When you understand this, you'll have the understanding of God's Redemption.

You just told me to try to see things from God's point of view

Aviel said:
And regarding "working out your salvation"..

Here is a way to see that verse in the correct light.

"work out YOUR Salvation (that you have IF you are born again and are not just water baptized and religious).....in AWE and WONDER">

= replace "fear and trembling" with "AWE and WONDER" as that is the idea.

So, how do you work it out?

First you have to understand that Jesus is Salvation, and God gave what He finished on the Cross, as the "Gift of Salvation".

And being born again is the PROOF a person has it, and that is not water baptism, tho the "water cults" would teach you to disagree.

I never said it was the rite of water baptism. Rather, I would just say that the rite gives a shadow of the work God does with the water.

Aviel said:
So, now having "the Gift of Salvation" you are to learn how to exist within it, according to revelation knowledge.

That is how you "work it out".

Revelation knowledge, yes, that leads to salvation. The wise virgins collected oil, and the good stewards went to the market place or the bank, and the seed needed good soil before it could bear fruit.

Aviel · May 4, 2024

jonojim1337 said:
You just told me to try to see things from God's point of view

Yes, because you stated that the carnal behavior that i had listed was "nothing big".

jonojim1337 said:
I never said it was the rite of water baptism. Rather, I would just say that the rite gives a shadow of the work God does with the water.

That is true.

Its a "figure"... = Symbolic. 'the like FIGURE".....

And the Water Cults, teach that as..."Water is required for Salvation" '= """"no Water, no Salvation"..

And where does that originate?

it originated in the Catholic Bible.... as a text, in John 3, that states that you are "Born again BY water"

See that?

"BY water... and in fact, you are born again BY : The Holy Spirit.

So, the water cults, exchange the Holy Spirit BIRTH for "by Water".

jonojim1337 said:
Revelation knowledge, yes, that leads to salvation.

Revelation knowledge of what?

A.) The Gospel of the Grace of God.

A person hears this GOSPEL that is "Paul's Gospel" and "faith comes by HEARING"...

jonojim1337 said:
The wise virgins collected oil, and the good stewards went to the market place or the bank, and the seed needed good soil before it could bear fruit.

You are not a virgin, nor a wise one.
You are not a Old Testament Jew, who is receiving that parable.

You are a GENTILE, in the "time of the Gentiles".. and Paul is the "Apostle to the Gentiles"..

So, when you want to understand SALVATION< you dont use OT parables that are talking about Virgins...

But you can use the "Prodigal son"< as that particular Parable is directly connected to NT Salvation..

As you have the son in the pig pen, and that is the unbeliever in their sin.

Then you have the son turning from the pig pen, and wanting to go home to daddy, and that is "repenting from unbelief" and turning to Christ by Faith.

And then you have the Father, who gives the prodigal the Ring and the Best Robe and a Feast, and that is the sinner being redeemed and forgiven and born again.

Ivan Hlavanda · May 4, 2024

jonojim1337 said:
I think there is redundant information that one is not 'saved' or 'born again' until one has stopped sinning. If you are living in sin, you are not born again, you are still in your sinful nature. Most 'Christians' are in the category of the dirt where the seed was planted among the tares. Jesus said, only when the seed grows above the tares, will it bear fruit.

We are slaves to sin, unable to free ourselves. We need a redeemer, Jesus Christ, who brakes us from the bondage of sin.
We cannot stop sinning ourselves. Only once we are saved, and born of the Holy Spirit, we are able to stop sinning. Not other way round as salvation does not depend on us, but God alone.

jonojim1337 said:
So how are we born again? Jesus said, by water and Spirit.

Yes, but this is not water baptism as many wrongly believe. This is God washing away our sins. Water baptism does nothing, if one does not believe in perfect work of Jesus on the cross. By faith alone and not by works.

jonojim1337 · May 4, 2024

Ivan Hlavanda said:
We are slaves to sin, unable to free ourselves. We need a redeemer, Jesus Christ, who brakes us from the bondage of sin.
We cannot stop sinning ourselves. Only once we are saved, and born of the Holy Spirit, we are able to stop sinning. Not other way round as salvation does not depend on us, but God alone.

I didn't say we save ourselves. I just said what salvation is. And it is not living in sin.

Ivan Hlavanda said:
Yes, but this is not water baptism as many wrongly believe. This is God washing away our sins. Water baptism does nothing, if one does not believe in perfect work of Jesus on the cross. By faith alone and not by works.

And I didn't say it was the rite of water baptism. I just said like Jesus said it, by water and Spirit.

jonojim1337 · May 4, 2024

Aviel said:
Yes, because you stated that the carnal behavior that i had listed was "nothing big".

I was not referring to any specific carnal behaviour when I said that. Most people's view of their fallenness or sin is that it is "nothing big". I didn't say this was God's view.

Aviel said:
That is true.

Its a "figure"... = Symbolic. 'the like FIGURE".....

And the Water Cults, teach that as..."Water is required for Salvation" '= """"no Water, no Salvation"..

And where does that originate?

it originated in the Catholic Bible.... as a text, in John 3, that states that you are "Born again BY water"

See that?

"BY water... and in fact, you are born again BY : The Holy Spirit.

So, the water cults, exchange the Holy Spirit BIRTH for "by Water".

Maybe this will help you understand "water":

"I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules."

Water here is by which God cleanses from all uncleanness and all idols.

Aviel said:
Revelation knowledge of what?

A.) The Gospel of the Grace of God.

A person hears this GOSPEL that is "Paul's Gospel" and "faith comes by HEARING"...

You are not a virgin, nor a wise one.
You are not a Old Testament Jew, who is receiving that parable.

You are a GENTILE, in the "time of the Gentiles".. and Paul is the "Apostle to the Gentiles"..

So, when you want to understand SALVATION< you dont use OT parables that are talking about Virgins...

But you can use the "Prodigal son"< as that particular Parable is directly connected to NT Salvation..

As you have the son in the pig pen, and that is the unbeliever in their sin.

Then you have the son turning from the pig pen, and wanting to go home to daddy, and that is "repenting from unbelief" and turning to Christ by Faith.

And then you have the Father, who gives the prodigal the Ring and the Best Robe and a Feast, and that is the sinner being redeemed and forgiven and born again.

Well you're just straight off wrong there. A jew cannot be a virgin - he has to pay for his own sin or with the blood of animals which do not remove sin. He also is not waiting for the bridegroom together with the wise virgins, who then follow him into the Kingdom. I think you have to redo you math there. "You will die in your sin" does not sound like "you are virgins" to me.

Aviel · May 4, 2024

jonojim1337 said:
I was not referring to any specific carnal behaviour when I said that. Most people's view of their fallenness or sin is that it is "nothing big". I didn't say this was God's view.

Did you want to clarify that one more time, just to get it dialed in?

jonojim1337 said:
Maybe this will help you understand "water":

"I will sprinkle clean water on you,

1.) "Jesus is the Living Water"

2.) "The washing of water by the word".

Connect the dots, @jonojim1337 .

jonojim1337 said:
Well you're just straight off wrong there. A jew cannot be a virgin - he has to pay for his own sin or with the blood of animals

If the animal is paying for the "jew's sin" then the Jew isn't paying for it.

Do you have anything else?
Like...
Something related to understanding anything about the NT?

Could you just go here and study these, if you own a bible?

Romans 3:21-28

Hebrews 13:9

2 Corinthisans 5:19

John 3;17

Romans 4:8

Hebrews 6:1

jonojim1337 · May 4, 2024

Aviel said:
Did you want to clarify that one more time, just to get it dialed in?

You can live a comfortable life - somewhat - and still be unsaved. Like the parable of the Pharasee and the tax collector.

Aviel said:
1.) "Jesus is the Living Water"

2.) "The washing of water by the word".

Connect the dots, @jonojim1337 .

I believe there is a water by the Word. The Roman soldier who struck Jesus got to experience it. We can all experience it.

Aviel said:
If the animal is paying for the "jew's sin" then the Jew isn't paying for it.

Well except the blood of animals cannot remove sin, therefore they cannot be virgins.

Ivan Hlavanda · May 4, 2024

jonojim1337 said:
I didn't say we save ourselves. I just said what salvation is. And it is not living in sin.

Yes, but first we have to be saved. And even then, we won't live in perfect obedience as we still have a sinful nature. That of course does not excuse sin, as even when saved, sin is still deadly, and has terrible consequences

jonojim1337 said:
And I didn't say it was the rite of water baptism. I just said like Jesus said it, by water and Spirit.

I know you did not. I'm just putting it out there as there is many people who think water baptism saves.

Water and Spirit

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