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O That the Atheist....
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<blockquote data-quote="stevil" data-source="post: 77619364" data-attributes="member: 277368"><p>Doesn't change reality at all. Just changes our models of reality. </p><p></p><p>General Relativity is very complicated. In most circumstances scientists still use Newton's models, but when calculations need to include fast speeds, or gravity then they go to Einstein's models. For example GPS would be highly inaccurate under Newton's models.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Was there ever a time when we didn't have time and space and energy? No one knows.</p><p>Religious folk will say, Yes there was, and before all that was God, my God, the god of my religion with knowledge and information and capability to poof things into existence and capability to change reality.</p><p>You will say, YES there was, and before that there were eternal minds, with knowledge and information and capability to poof things into existence and capability to change reality.</p><p>Scientists will say, there is no evidence of having no time, no space, no energy so it is unknown. What precedes is unknown. Is there a god poofing things into existence and changing reality? There is no evidence to support this poorly formed claim. Is there evidence of minds poofing things into existence and changing reality? There is no evidence to support this poorly formed claim.</p><p></p><p>Sure</p><p></p><p>Nope, that isn't reasonable at all.</p><p>What is it made of?</p><p>What mechanism does it have to poof things into existence?</p><p>Or to move things?</p><p>or to change reality?</p><p>How can information and knowledge pre-exist existence? All it could possibly have is knowledge of nothing.</p><p></p><p>Perhaps spacetime is eternal, perhaps there is a multiverse. answer = Unknown.</p><p></p><p>A thought is the inner workings of the brain. Conceptualising ideas, concepts don't physically exist, they are just tools and models used by conscious beings to think about things. Like a circle, it is just a concept. A circle doesn't exist.</p><p></p><p>I feel you are falling for the same trap that many religion folk fall for. Getting confused between the idea of conceptual things vs physical things.</p><p></p><p>Nope. No one thinks something into reality.</p><p>If someone has an idea for a lightbulb, they have to physically get some metal and create a wire, get some acid and metal and create a battery, physically put it all together to create that lightbulb. There is nothing special about this. The mind isn't poofing a lightbulb into existence.</p><p>Oh Boy!</p><p></p><p>No, that's not even close to what QM says.</p><p>They are saying that observation collapses the wave function. It's not creating the fields, it's not creating the particles, it's not creating or deciding upon the velocity or the position. You can't sit somewhere in USA with your eyes closed and think really hard and next minute a lightbulb turns on in China.</p><p></p><p>That doesn't make any sense at all.</p><p></p><p>If you can't verify your idea, then throw it onto the trash heap of nonsense ideas. There are a very lot of those.</p><p>Thankfully we toss them aside and move on.</p><p></p><p>If you can't explain something then just put "Unknown" as a placeholder. No need to come up with an unverifiable idea of a god or mind abstract from physical reality. That's just being lazy, and presupposing something that you have no intent to find any evidence for.</p><p></p><p>Sorry what?</p><p>You are saying knowledge comes from nature and the universe.</p><p>But then, didn't you say the mind had this knowledge from before the universe existed?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="stevil, post: 77619364, member: 277368"] Doesn't change reality at all. Just changes our models of reality. General Relativity is very complicated. In most circumstances scientists still use Newton's models, but when calculations need to include fast speeds, or gravity then they go to Einstein's models. For example GPS would be highly inaccurate under Newton's models. Was there ever a time when we didn't have time and space and energy? No one knows. Religious folk will say, Yes there was, and before all that was God, my God, the god of my religion with knowledge and information and capability to poof things into existence and capability to change reality. You will say, YES there was, and before that there were eternal minds, with knowledge and information and capability to poof things into existence and capability to change reality. Scientists will say, there is no evidence of having no time, no space, no energy so it is unknown. What precedes is unknown. Is there a god poofing things into existence and changing reality? There is no evidence to support this poorly formed claim. Is there evidence of minds poofing things into existence and changing reality? There is no evidence to support this poorly formed claim. Sure Nope, that isn't reasonable at all. What is it made of? What mechanism does it have to poof things into existence? Or to move things? or to change reality? How can information and knowledge pre-exist existence? All it could possibly have is knowledge of nothing. Perhaps spacetime is eternal, perhaps there is a multiverse. answer = Unknown. A thought is the inner workings of the brain. Conceptualising ideas, concepts don't physically exist, they are just tools and models used by conscious beings to think about things. Like a circle, it is just a concept. A circle doesn't exist. I feel you are falling for the same trap that many religion folk fall for. Getting confused between the idea of conceptual things vs physical things. Nope. No one thinks something into reality. If someone has an idea for a lightbulb, they have to physically get some metal and create a wire, get some acid and metal and create a battery, physically put it all together to create that lightbulb. There is nothing special about this. The mind isn't poofing a lightbulb into existence. Oh Boy! No, that's not even close to what QM says. They are saying that observation collapses the wave function. It's not creating the fields, it's not creating the particles, it's not creating or deciding upon the velocity or the position. You can't sit somewhere in USA with your eyes closed and think really hard and next minute a lightbulb turns on in China. That doesn't make any sense at all. If you can't verify your idea, then throw it onto the trash heap of nonsense ideas. There are a very lot of those. Thankfully we toss them aside and move on. If you can't explain something then just put "Unknown" as a placeholder. No need to come up with an unverifiable idea of a god or mind abstract from physical reality. That's just being lazy, and presupposing something that you have no intent to find any evidence for. Sorry what? You are saying knowledge comes from nature and the universe. But then, didn't you say the mind had this knowledge from before the universe existed? [/QUOTE]
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