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Discussion and Debate
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Ethics & Morality
Free will and determinism
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<blockquote data-quote="Bradskii" data-source="post: 77682290" data-attributes="member: 412388"><p>Perhaps you could support your claim (that there are random neurological events) and we can examine them. Maybe check out Penrose-Hameroff for some info on microtubules and quantum effects (orchestrated objective reduction or Orch OR), although it's mainly concerned with consciousness itself, which is another ball game for another time. See here: <a href="https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnint.2012.00093/full" target="_blank">How quantum brain biology can rescue conscious free will</a>. And see Churchland's response here: <a href="https://patriciachurchland.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/1997-Brainshy-NonNeural-Theories-of-Conscious-Experience.pdf" target="_blank">https://patriciachurchland.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/1997-Brainshy-NonNeural-Theories-of-Conscious-Experience.pdf</a></p><p></p><p>I'll also quote this passage from here: <a href="https://www.psychiatrypodcast.com/psychiatry-psychotherapy-podcast/a-summary-of-determined-by-robert-sapolsky-does-free-will-existalexander-horwitz-md" target="_blank">A Summary of ‘Determined’ by Robert Sapolsky — Does Free Will Exist?Alexander Horwitz, M.D. — Psychiatry & Psychotherapy Podcast</a></p><p></p><p>'Sapolsky discusses quantum tunneling, which is illustrated by electrons being able to seemingly traverse physical spaces such as walls due to superposition. Quantum indeterminacy provides a lot of fodder for doubting the presence of free will. Maybe behavior is a product of the randomness of the previous ideas. Sapolsky ultimately argues against this. The idea of quantum effects bubbling up is considered through the work of Peter Tse with the neurotransmitter glutamate as well as the work of anesthesiologist Stuart Hameroff and physicist Roger Penrose with microtubules. </p><p></p><p>While a glutamatergic neuron has roughly 20-100 trillion glutamate receptors, it is unlikely that a little spontaneous release of glutamate can produce any meaningful effects. In addition, physicist Max Tegmark has shown that the time course of quantum states in microtubules is far too short to have a discernible biological effect. Although there is the potential for a staggering amount of subatomic indeterminacy, the major point is that it does not appear to manifest on the macroscopic level. If it did, Sapolsky notes that <em>“you’d just be making gargly sounds because the muscles in your tongue would be doing all sorts of random things.”</em> Interestingly, Sapolsky does not address string theory and the idea of multiple universes or the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics.'</p><p></p><p>See also Tegmark's rejection of the claim here: <a href="https://space.mit.edu/home/tegmark/brain.html" target="_blank">https://space.mit.edu/home/tegmark/brain.html</a></p><p></p><p>Plenty for you to check out I think. I might say 'Been there, got the T-shirt' as I've read all of the linked articles before. And mulled over the pros and cons. But there may be something you want to discuss.</p><p></p><p>As was pointed out in the post above, and has been explained to you previously, the a priori position was 'We have free will'. Coupled with a normal sense of puzzlement that anyone could argue against it. So...why not investigate the claim that we don't. And discovered it was based on determinism. Well, hey - I agree with determinism, but there must be room for free will in the deterministic world. I was a compatibilist. So I examined the literature. Classical, enlightenment and contemporary. Studied neurobiology. Looked at cause and effect. Looked at social conditioning. Spent quite a few years poking around and started to get to a point where the arguments for and against kept coming up wherever I looked.</p><p></p><p>And found that there was no room for free will anywhere. </p><p></p><p>And then spent not an inconsiderable amount of time trying to find an escape clause that will allow for personal responsibility. And found that there wasn't one. Which was by <em>far </em>the most difficult aspect of the matter with which to come to terms. But you get to a point where there's nowhere else to go.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Bradskii, post: 77682290, member: 412388"] Perhaps you could support your claim (that there are random neurological events) and we can examine them. Maybe check out Penrose-Hameroff for some info on microtubules and quantum effects (orchestrated objective reduction or Orch OR), although it's mainly concerned with consciousness itself, which is another ball game for another time. See here: [URL="https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnint.2012.00093/full"]How quantum brain biology can rescue conscious free will[/URL]. And see Churchland's response here: [URL]https://patriciachurchland.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/1997-Brainshy-NonNeural-Theories-of-Conscious-Experience.pdf[/URL] I'll also quote this passage from here: [URL="https://www.psychiatrypodcast.com/psychiatry-psychotherapy-podcast/a-summary-of-determined-by-robert-sapolsky-does-free-will-existalexander-horwitz-md"]A Summary of ‘Determined’ by Robert Sapolsky — Does Free Will Exist?Alexander Horwitz, M.D. — Psychiatry & Psychotherapy Podcast[/URL] 'Sapolsky discusses quantum tunneling, which is illustrated by electrons being able to seemingly traverse physical spaces such as walls due to superposition. Quantum indeterminacy provides a lot of fodder for doubting the presence of free will. Maybe behavior is a product of the randomness of the previous ideas. Sapolsky ultimately argues against this. The idea of quantum effects bubbling up is considered through the work of Peter Tse with the neurotransmitter glutamate as well as the work of anesthesiologist Stuart Hameroff and physicist Roger Penrose with microtubules. While a glutamatergic neuron has roughly 20-100 trillion glutamate receptors, it is unlikely that a little spontaneous release of glutamate can produce any meaningful effects. In addition, physicist Max Tegmark has shown that the time course of quantum states in microtubules is far too short to have a discernible biological effect. Although there is the potential for a staggering amount of subatomic indeterminacy, the major point is that it does not appear to manifest on the macroscopic level. If it did, Sapolsky notes that [I]“you’d just be making gargly sounds because the muscles in your tongue would be doing all sorts of random things.”[/I] Interestingly, Sapolsky does not address string theory and the idea of multiple universes or the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics.' See also Tegmark's rejection of the claim here: [URL]https://space.mit.edu/home/tegmark/brain.html[/URL] Plenty for you to check out I think. I might say 'Been there, got the T-shirt' as I've read all of the linked articles before. And mulled over the pros and cons. But there may be something you want to discuss. As was pointed out in the post above, and has been explained to you previously, the a priori position was 'We have free will'. Coupled with a normal sense of puzzlement that anyone could argue against it. So...why not investigate the claim that we don't. And discovered it was based on determinism. Well, hey - I agree with determinism, but there must be room for free will in the deterministic world. I was a compatibilist. So I examined the literature. Classical, enlightenment and contemporary. Studied neurobiology. Looked at cause and effect. Looked at social conditioning. Spent quite a few years poking around and started to get to a point where the arguments for and against kept coming up wherever I looked. And found that there was no room for free will anywhere. And then spent not an inconsiderable amount of time trying to find an escape clause that will allow for personal responsibility. And found that there wasn't one. Which was by [I]far [/I]the most difficult aspect of the matter with which to come to terms. But you get to a point where there's nowhere else to go. [/QUOTE]
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