Where were the 33 missing fish

fli · May 15, 2024

John 21:11 Simon Peter went up and dragged the net to land, full of large fish, one hundred and fifty-three; and although there were so many, the net was not broken. NKJV

At the time of Jesus' meeting with the disciples above there were 153 believers in the world that would begin His church.

Acts 1:16 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said, NKJV

Those present in the upper room at Pentecost were about 120. That leaves 33 unaccounted for disciples.

John 6:40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day." NKJV

Jesus said that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him would have everlasting life. There were many Jews from around the world that traveled to Judea for the many festivals during Jesus' ministry. Every one of those who received John's baptism and had Jesus pointed out to them are candidates to be the missing disciples.

Acts 18:24 Now a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man and mighty in the Scriptures, came to Ephesus. 25 This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things of the Lord, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26 So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately. NKJV

Apollos was baptized by John the Baptist. There is a good chance that Apollos saw Jesus when he was in Judea being baptizes. It is very possible somebody pointed out Jesus to him as the man that John was referring to as being the Christ.

Acts 19:1 And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples 2 he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." 3 And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized?" So they said, "Into John's baptism." 4 Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus." 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. 7 Now the men were about twelve in all. NKJV

Here are 12 more candidates that may have seen Jesus and believed in him then went back to another country.

Josheb · May 15, 2024

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fli said:
John 21:11 Simon Peter went up and dragged the net to land, full of large fish, one hundred and fifty-three; and although there were so many, the net was not broken. NKJV

At the time of Jesus' meeting with the disciples above there were 153 believers in the world that would begin His church.

Interesting op. Is it being suggested the 153 fish in the net is indicative of the number of disciples existing at that time? If so, that's seems tenuous at best. How'd you reach that conclusion?

fli said:
Jesus said that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him would have everlasting life.

I do hope that is not intended to mean salvation by sight exists, or that by merely seeing Jesus a person is saved. I also hope that is not intended to mean a person cannot be saved unless he has physically seen Jesus with his own eyes.

fli said:
Apollos was baptized by John the Baptist. There is a good chance that Apollos saw Jesus when he was in Judea being baptizes. It is very possible somebody pointed out Jesus to him as the man that John was referring to as being the Christ.

Ooooo.... Just because he knew the baptism of John does not mean he was baptized by John. We meet Apollos in Galatia, many years after John's death. It is possible, coming from Alexandria to Galatia he passed through Jerusalem and met John and was baptized by John, but that is not what the text actually states. Apollos and Paul proceed to Ephesus where they meet a bunch of people baptized, "Into John’s baptism." but, again, that does not mean they all met John and were baptized by him. John was leveraging a traditional Jewish cleansing ceremony, one that was normally practiced on Gentile converts to Judaism. That's why the Jewish leaders said they had no need to be baptized by John. These Ephesians are called disciples (of Christ) so they have also heard the gospel and believed - but not received the Spirit. So, again, it is possible after meeting John the met Jesus and heard Jesus speak. They'd been baptized by John and believed Jesus' preaching but all of them then left Ephesus prior to Calvary or after Calvary but before Pentecost (they haven't heard of Spirit baptism). The simpler explanation, however, would be they were preached to and converted by and individual who'd had that experience and then passed on his incomplete knowledge to others. Rather than thinking a bunch of people from various places all went to Jerusalem and had the same experience (a very real possibility I do not dismiss), isn't it more likely one individual taught many others incompletely?

fli said:
Here are 12 more candidates that may have seen Jesus and believed in him then went back to another country.

Barnabas may have been another. He was from Cyprus, but he owned land in Jerusalem, or at least sold a parcel he owned and gave the money to the apostles in Jerusalem. He met Paul in Jerusalem and knew enough to take Paul to meet with the council there. Being a Levite, it's very likely he frequented Jerusalem as time and the limits of travel in those days permitted and had apparently heard and believed the gospel in Jerusalem. His being a Levite and Saul being a Pharisee, it's quite possible the two of them had been in a same crowd hearing Jesus preach (and possibly been among the groups of Jewish leaders that came to test Jesus). Nicodemus had heard Jesus before coming clandestinely to speak to him. Barnabas, of course, did not go back solely to Cyprus, but to many places accompanying Paul. Joseph was from Arimathea. While that's not a different country, it is outside of Jerusalem.

fli · May 16, 2024

Josheb said:
.

Interesting op. Is it being suggested the 153 fish in the net is indicative of the number of disciples existing at that time? If so, that's seems tenuous at best. How'd you reach that conclusion?

I do hope that is not intended to mean salvation by sight exists, or that by merely seeing Jesus a person is saved. I also hope that is not intended to mean a person cannot be saved unless he has physically seen Jesus with his own eyes.

Ooooo.... Just because he knew the baptism of John does not mean he was baptized by John. We meet Apollos in Galatia, many years after John's death. It is possible, coming from Alexandria to Galatia he passed through Jerusalem and met John and was baptized by John, but that is not what the text actually states. Apollos and Paul proceed to Ephesus where they meet a bunch of people baptized, "Into John’s baptism." but, again, that does not mean they all met John and were baptized by him. John was leveraging a traditional Jewish cleansing ceremony, one that was normally practiced on Gentile converts to Judaism. That's why the Jewish leaders said they had no need to be baptized by John. These Ephesians are called disciples (of Christ) so they have also heard the gospel and believed - but not received the Spirit. So, again, it is possible after meeting John the met Jesus and heard Jesus speak. They'd been baptized by John and believed Jesus' preaching but all of them then left Ephesus prior to Calvary or after Calvary but before Pentecost (they haven't heard of Spirit baptism). The simpler explanation, however, would be they were preached to and converted by and individual who'd had that experience and then passed on his incomplete knowledge to others. Rather than thinking a bunch of people from various places all went to Jerusalem and had the same experience (a very real possibility I do not dismiss), isn't it more likely one individual taught many others incompletely?

Barnabas may have been another. He was from Cyprus, but he owned land in Jerusalem, or at least sold a parcel he owned and gave the money to the apostles in Jerusalem. He met Paul in Jerusalem and knew enough to take Paul to meet with the council there. Being a Levite, it's very likely he frequented Jerusalem as time and the limits of travel in those days permitted and had apparently heard and believed the gospel in Jerusalem. His being a Levite and Saul being a Pharisee, it's quite possible the two of them had been in a same crowd hearing Jesus preach (and possibly been among the groups of Jewish leaders that came to test Jesus). Nicodemus had heard Jesus before coming clandestinely to speak to him. Barnabas, of course, did not go back solely to Cyprus, but to many places accompanying Paul. Joseph was from Arimathea. While that's not a different country, it is outside of Jerusalem.

Thank you for your reply

I am not good at separating your questions so I will cite your question and reply.

You ask: Am I suggesting that the 153 fish is equal to the total number of disciples at that time?

Yes, that is my suggestion, God seldom gives information that is useless. Jesus told Peter and Andrew that His disciples would be fishers of men. Jesus' ministry is over and He is sending them out to catch more fish. Jesus told them where to throw the net for this catch. The picture is : Here is my catch. Now you go and add to it.

For your next question I will post the scripture that I cited.

John 6:40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day." NKJV

Am I suggesting salvation by sight alone? No. God knew there would be many Israelis from around the world coming to Jerusalem for the 3 festivals each year during Jesus' ministry. If Jesus was pointed out to them as being the Messiah and they believe; then they were guaranteed eternal salvation along with the 120 in the upper room. Since this post I have realized that it doesn't just apply to just Israelis. The woman at the well and her fellow villagers would be included in the count.

Am I suggesting one has to see Jesus to be saved? No. John 17: 20-24 however, by John's gospel all those given by the Father have seen Him.

Yes, you are right. All people that received the baptism of John may not have been baptized by him. Who they were baptized by makes no difference. The point being they were not baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Barnabas could possibly be one of the 33.

I do not believe that Paul and Apollos traveled to Ephesus together.

I believe that I might have answered all your questions. I have offered a possible explanation for the 12 disciples that had only the baptism of John.

Now on to some conclusions that I have drawn.

Acts 19:1 And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples 2 he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." NKJV

The Holy Spirit calls those 12 “disciples” and they were only baptized into John's baptism. Being disciples means they were saved because after Jesus died the term “disciple” is applied only to those who are saved. That means they did have the Spirit of Jesus within them. Paul had them baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as an act of obedience, not into salvation. When Paul laid hands on them they received the manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit upon them.

daq · May 16, 2024

fli said:
John 21:11 Simon Peter went up and dragged the net to land, full of large fish, one hundred and fifty-three; and although there were so many, the net was not broken. NKJV

At the time of Jesus' meeting with the disciples above there were 153 believers in the world that would begin His church.

Acts 1:16 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said, NKJV

Those present in the upper room at Pentecost were about 120. That leaves 33 unaccounted for disciples.

John 6:40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day." NKJV

Jesus said that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him would have everlasting life. There were many Jews from around the world that traveled to Judea for the many festivals during Jesus' ministry. Every one of those who received John's baptism and had Jesus pointed out to them are candidates to be the missing disciples.

Acts 18:24 Now a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man and mighty in the Scriptures, came to Ephesus. 25 This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things of the Lord, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26 So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately. NKJV

Apollos was baptized by John the Baptist. There is a good chance that Apollos saw Jesus when he was in Judea being baptizes. It is very possible somebody pointed out Jesus to him as the man that John was referring to as being the Christ.

Acts 19:1 And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples 2 he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." 3 And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized?" So they said, "Into John's baptism." 4 Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus." 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. 7 Now the men were about twelve in all. NKJV

Here are 12 more candidates that may have seen Jesus and believed in him then went back to another country.

Job 1:6 KJV
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

"the sons of God" = בני האלהים (bnei ha·Elohim) = Gematria 153

So perhaps therefore the number 153 simply represents all the sons of Elohim, the catch, by way of the fishers of men, once they followed the instruction of the Master and cast the net on the correct side of the boat, the right side.

Josheb · May 19, 2024

fli said:
Thank you for your reply

I am not good at separating your questions so I will cite your question and reply.

You ask: Am I suggesting that the 153 fish is equal to the total number of disciples at that time?

Yes, that is my suggestion, God seldom gives information that is useless. Jesus told Peter and Andrew that His disciples would be fishers of men. Jesus' ministry is over and He is sending them out to catch more fish. Jesus told them where to throw the net for this catch.

The mention of the number does not mean it indicates the number of believers, and nowhere has that case been made in this thread. So far, it looks like an explanation was literally invented out of nothing, and solely for the sake of circularly supporting this op.

fli said:
The picture is : Here is my catch. Now you go and add to it.

If the number was added to then there are more that 153. You've just undermined your own op. I'm not trying to be snarky. When flawed arguments are presented to non-believers it's the flaw that justifies the non-believers unbelief and rejection - and it comes at the risk of hardening their heart unjustly and inappropriately.

James 3:1
Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.

Be careful about assigning meaning to scripture where scripture is silent. I agree with you nothing in scripture is meaningless, but nowhere does scripture explicitly explain the meaning of "153 fish." I do not mean to divert the discussion but the claim the 153 fish means there were 153 believers then the analogy serves monergistic soteriology. I don't know whether you are Calvinist, Arminian, Wesleyan, Traditionalist/Provisionist, or Pelagian in your soteriology but if you're not monergistic then you've undermined your own doctrine of salvation with this kind of claim about the fish (they did not have a choice, were not asked if they wanted to be caught, and their number is fixed.

fli said:
For your next question I will post the scripture that I cited.

John 6:40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day." NKJV

Am I suggesting salvation by sight alone? No.

Ah! Ah! Ah! You just moved the goalposts! I did not ask about "sight alone." I asked if you were espousing salvation by sight. No need or warrant to add "alone."

As to John 6:40, that verse does not say seeing Jesus with your eyeballs brings everlasting life. That is prima facie and irrational conclusion. Furthermore, the taking of one single verse, removing it from its surrounding text and contexts is called "proof-texting" and proof-texting is rarely sound practice. On top of those two problems there is the problem of translation. By using the NKJV the fact the Greek does not use the word "sees" in the visual observance by the eyeball sense is missed. The Greek word is "theoron," which means "behold," or to gaze upon with discernment, as the more literal translations correctly render that verse (G2334). The Greek word for visual sight is blepo.

fli said:
Am I suggesting one has to see Jesus to be saved? No. John 17: 20-24 however, by John's gospel all those given by the Father have seen Him.

Yes, and that should in no way ever conflict with the fact hundreds of thousands of people saw Jesus with their own eyeballs and never believed. Seeing is not salvific and while I believe that was not your intent, this is a text-based medium and all the readers have to understand is the words on their screen. Intent is lost unless stated.

fli said:
Yes, you are right. All people that received the baptism of John may not have been baptized by him. Who they were baptized by makes no difference. The point being they were not baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

I am glad we agree. I would go even further to say it's likely many who were baptized in water never stayed the course believing salvifically in Jesus.

fli said:
Barnabas could possibly be one of the 33.

Yep. Maybe.

fli said:
I do not believe that Paul and Apollos traveled to Ephesus together.

Perhaps I am reading too much into scripture but the text does state the following...

Acts 18:24
Now a Jew named Apollos, an Alexandrian by birth, an eloquent man, came to Ephesus; and he was mighty in the Scriptures.

Acts 19:1
It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus and found some disciples.

They were together in Corinth, but perhaps Apollos did not follow Paul to Ephesus. I stand corrected. However, the point is there's no record Apollos was baptized by John, as is stated in the op. You may have committed the same error I just committed.

My larger point was that disciples of John and pre-Calvary disciples of Jesus may well have gone out of Jerusalem to other places in Israel and the surrounding countries and baptized people (incompletely) as they were taught to do by John and Jesus. We know a few among the 12 came to Jesus because they'd been told he was the long-awaited anointed one of God. Think about how many people may have left prematurely to tellothers the anointed on had arrived.

The larger point is we should be cautious about our assumptions. We should be careful about an inferential reading of scripture and not speak where scripture is silent. The exact same truth you previously asserted, "God seldom gives information that is useless," is also true of scripture's silence. God is seldom silent uselessly.

fli said:
I believe that I might have answered all your questions. I have offered a possible explanation for the 12 disciples that had only the baptism of John.

Now on to some conclusions that I have drawn.

Acts 19:1 And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples 2 he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." NKJV

The Holy Spirit calls those 12 “disciples” and they were only baptized into John's baptism. Being disciples means they were saved because after Jesus died the term “disciple” is applied only to those who are saved. That means they did have the Spirit of Jesus within them. Paul had them baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as an act of obedience, not into salvation. When Paul laid hands on them they received the manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit upon them.

I, again, think too much is read into scripture in some ways and not enough into others. The twelve were saved by grace through faith and created in Christ for works God had planned in advance for them to perform (Eph. 2:5-10). We do not actually know all twelve were baptized in water or, if they were that they were all baptized by Jesus. We know at least one of them had been a follower of John, so he was likely baptized by John but that is all speculative. What we do know is that the eleven and the other disciples were gathered at Pentecost to be baptized in the Holy Spirit (even though the eleven and many of the other disciples had the Spirit indwelling them prior to Pentecost.

The over-arching point is that scripture never states there were only 153 believers at first. Nor does it give an accounting of exactly 153 or ask us to calculate that number. While I do not mind a little speculation it should be exegetical, not eisegetical (and there's a lot of eisegesis i the op). I won't belabor the matter further because I think the op interesting and creative and do not think the matter can be decided one way or another.

I appreciate your patience and forbearance

. Thx

fli · May 21, 2024

Josheb said:
The mention of the number does not mean it indicates the number of believers, and nowhere has that case been made in this thread. So far, it looks like an explanation was literally invented out of nothing, and solely for the sake of circularly supporting this op.

If the number was added to then there are more that 153. You've just undermined your own op. I'm not trying to be snarky. When flawed arguments are presented to non-believers it's the flaw that justifies the non-believers unbelief and rejection - and it comes at the risk of hardening their heart unjustly and inappropriately.

James 3:1
Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.

Be careful about assigning meaning to scripture where scripture is silent. I agree with you nothing in scripture is meaningless, but nowhere does scripture explicitly explain the meaning of "153 fish." I do not mean to divert the discussion but the claim the 153 fish means there were 153 believers then the analogy serves monergistic soteriology. I don't know whether you are Calvinist, Arminian, Wesleyan, Traditionalist/Provisionist, or Pelagian in your soteriology but if you're not monergistic then you've undermined your own doctrine of salvation with this kind of claim about the fish (they did not have a choice, were not asked if they wanted to be caught, and their number is fixed.

Ah! Ah! Ah! You just moved the goalposts! I did not ask about "sight alone." I asked if you were espousing salvation by sight. No need or warrant to add "alone."

As to John 6:40, that verse does not say seeing Jesus with your eyeballs brings everlasting life. That is prima facie and irrational conclusion. Furthermore, the taking of one single verse, removing it from its surrounding text and contexts is called "proof-texting" and proof-texting is rarely sound practice. On top of those two problems there is the problem of translation. By using the NKJV the fact the Greek does not use the word "sees" in the visual observance by the eyeball sense is missed. The Greek word is "theoron," which means "behold," or to gaze upon with discernment, as the more literal translations correctly render that verse (G2334). The Greek word for visual sight is blepo.

Yes, and that should in no way ever conflict with the fact hundreds of thousands of people saw Jesus with their own eyeballs and never believed. Seeing is not salvific and while I believe that was not your intent, this is a text-based medium and all the readers have to understand is the words on their screen. Intent is lost unless stated.

I am glad we agree. I would go even further to say it's likely many who were baptized in water never stayed the course believing salvifically in Jesus.

Yep. Maybe.

Perhaps I am reading too much into scripture but the text does state the following...

Acts 18:24
Now a Jew named Apollos, an Alexandrian by birth, an eloquent man, came to Ephesus; and he was mighty in the Scriptures.

Acts 19:1
It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus and found some disciples.

They were together in Corinth, but perhaps Apollos did not follow Paul to Ephesus. I stand corrected. However, the point is there's no record Apollos was baptized by John, as is stated in the op. You may have committed the same error I just committed. My larger point was that disciples of John and pre-Calvary disciples of Jesus may well have gone out of Jerusalem to other places in Israel and the surrounding countries and baptized people (incompletely) as they were taught to do by John and Jesus. We know a few among the 12 came to Jesus because they'd been told he was the long-awaited anointed one of God. Think about how many people may have left prematurely to tellothers the anointed on had arrived.

The larger point is we should be cautious about our assumptions. We should be careful about an inferential reading of scripture and not speak where scripture is silent. The exact same truth you previously asserted, "God seldom gives information that is useless," is also true of scripture's silence. God is seldom silent uselessly.

I, again, think too much is read into scripture in some ways and not enough into others. The twelve were saved by grace through faith and created in Christ for works God had planned in advance for them to perform (Eph. 2:5-10). We do not actually know all twelve were baptized in water or, if they were that they were all baptized by Jesus. We know at least one of them had been a follower of John, so he was likely baptized by John but that is all speculative. What we do know is that the eleven and the other disciples were gathered at Pentecost to be baptized in the Holy Spirit (even though the eleven and many of the other disciples had the Spirit indwelling them prior to Pentecost.

The over-arching point is that scripture never states there were only 153 believers at first. Nor does it give an accounting of exactly 153 or ask us to calculate that number. While I do not mind a little speculation it should be exegetical, not eisegetical (and there's a lot of eisegesis i the op). I won't belabor the matter further because I think the op interesting and creative and do not think the matter can be decided one way or another.

I appreciate your patience and forbearance . Thx

You keep misquoting and misinterpreting my post to justify your position. You said: “If the number was added to then there are more than 153. You've just undermined your own op. “

Since you seem to not be able to draw the correct conclusion from what I post I will try to explain in more detail. First here is the section in my last post where you draw a wrong conclusion.

“Jesus' ministry is over, and He is sending them out to catch more fish. Jesus told them where to throw the net for this catch. The picture is: Here is my catch. Now you go and add to it.”

This in no way undermines my argument. The number was not added to the catch until the Apostles went out on the day of Pentecost. At that time the number 153 was no longer valid. Unbelievers would only mislead if they made the same error as you.

Does this post support monergistic soteriology? No! Those people that saw Jesus and believed (I enlarged it so you could clearly see) were in the same position as all Jesus' disciples at that time. Did those disciples have the Holy Spirit in their hearts?

John 7:39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. NKJV

They could not be saved by the actions of the Holy Spirit as He had not been Given. They were saved under the Old Testament conditions. After Jesus died, they did receive the Holy Spirit as did the Apostles and all the 120. At that time they had the Spirit of God that guides them through sanctification.

Acts 10:43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins." NKJV

The OT prophets witnessed that if one believed in the Christ their sins were forgiven.

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. NKJV

It is faith in Jesus the Christ whereby people are saved.

Josheb · May 21, 2024

fli said:
You keep misquoting and misinterpreting my post to justify your position.

Never happened.

fli said:
You said: “If the number was added to then there are more than 153. You've just undermined your own op. “

That first statement is true regardless of what anyone thinks or feels about it. Because that first statement is true and correct the op is undermined. It is impossible to add to the 153 and still have 153. That's simple logic, not personal opinion. Since it was, observably, and irrefutably, you who said, "Now you go and add to it," it was also you who undermined the op. The solution is readily available, and the problem is easily corrected without ever mentioned me at all. Just say, "Jesus provided a catch of 153 and then instructed his disciples, especially the eleven, to go catch some more." The comment, "Here is my catch. Now you go and add to it," was couched in the seaside at the beginning of his ministry (before any had actually been caught). It makes much greater sense to couch any "now go and catch more" at the great commission. In other words, the opportunity to clarify your own position (Mt. 7:4-5) availed itself and the choice was made to impugn my faculties. There was no reason to feel misrepresented or attack another. That's all on you, not me. My faculties could be judged all day long but that will NEVER prove the 153 fish indicate, "At the time of Jesus' meeting with the disciples above there were 153 believers in the world that would begin His church." Even there it makes more sense to say the fish indicate the number of fish Jesus would have before he ascended with which to begin His church. The way the assertion is worded in the op makes it sound like Jesus had 153 believers before he'd selected the twelve, and that is not a premise I can find stated anywhere in scripture. Interesting premise. One completely on you to prove. It's not personal and I've been supported of the endeavor whether that has been recognized or not.

fli said:
It is faith in Jesus the Christ whereby people are saved.

I would that to say, "It is through faith in Christ people are saved," or "It is faith in Jesus the Christ through which people are saved." The word "whereby" could be read to imply causality and faith does not cause salvation. And that has nothing to do with the premise the 153 fish refers specifically to 153 people being saved.

fli said:
Since you seem to not be able to...

Ad hominem noted. I am quite able to do many things, including walk away from a conversation when it turns derisively personal. Learn how to discuss disagreement without attacking others and calling into question their abilities, especially those you've never met.

Thank you for your time.

fli · May 21, 2024

It's no wonder that you misinterpret. You have the wrong time of the catch of 153 fish.

John 21:14 This is now the third time Jesus showed Himself to His disciples after He was raised from the dead. NKJV

This catch of fish happened after Jesus was resurrected.

Talk about me misleading the lost. Make sure that you fully understand the post prior to replying. I detected hostility also.

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Where were the 33 missing fish

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