SC Senate Passes Bill Banning Affirmative Care For Minors

RileyG said:

That’s correct. I’m sure it’s painful, but it’s not biologically possible to change your sex. That’s how I see it. My opinion only.

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That is precisely why they use the term "gender," that you can change.

rturner76 said:

That is precisely why they use the term "gender," that you can change.

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Gender isn’t about feelings from my perspective. In my opinion, it’s a slap in the face to woman when a man says he can change his gender. I stand with real women.

RileyG said:

Gender isn’t about feelings from my perspective. In my opinion, it’s a slap in the face to woman when a man says he can change his gender. I stand with real women.

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He most likely can't change his gender, even if it is not the one usually assigned to his gonads. All he can decide is whether to stay in the closet or not, apparently a decision which you reserve the right to make for him.

BCP1928 said:

He most likely can't change his gender, even if it is not the one usually assigned to his gonads. All he can decide is whether to stay in the closet or not, apparently a decision which you reserve the right to make for him.

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I don’t. He can pretend to say he’s a woman all he wants, but genetics will say otherwise.

RileyG said:

Gender isn’t about feelings from my perspective. In my opinion, it’s a slap in the face to woman when a man says he can change his gender. I stand with real women.

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When looking for information on what is affecting a person, I tend towards first hand knowledge over disinterested third parties. I think Trans people have a better understanding of what they are going through then you do. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion but I fail to see why I should accord your opinion any weight in the discussion.

Belk said:

When looking for information on what is affecting a person, I tend towards first hand knowledge over disinterested third parties. I think Trans people have a better understanding of what they are going through then you do. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion but I fail to see why I should accord your opinion any weight in the discussion.

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Fair enough, but they still aren’t the opposite sex. Feelings come and go. They don’t define reality.

RileyG said:

Gender isn’t about feelings from my perspective. In my opinion, it’s a slap in the face to woman when a man says he can change his gender. I stand with real women.

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As you should because you are a real woman. I think that is why there ended up being a distinction between sex and gender. When they ask the question on health forms like "What do you identify as?" They are being honest when they say they identify as a woman. It's part of their identity in society in terms of gender roles. They would be telling a lie if they said I was born a woman or I am physically a woman. You certainly have a right to your opinion, I don't believe much differently in terms of chromosomes and male or female reproductive organs being chosen for us but there are differing definitions where the medical community is concerned.

I am not an expert on this topic and I am certainly not a Nurologist but I have come across medical studies where they have scanned the brains of men and woman and it has been proven that men's and women's brains are slightly different neurologically and trans people tend to show neurological similarities to the see that they identify with. In situations like this, gender is a better description than sex because they are not physiologically the opposite sex but their brain works like a member of the opposite sex.

It would be nice if all of this stuff would just go away but they are here, out of the closet and have rights so whether we agree with the patient or not, they aren'tgoing away any time soon.

RileyG said:

Fair enough, but they still aren’t the opposite sex. Feelings come and go. They don’t define reality.

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Yes. They would agree. That is the exact issue they are facing.

RileyG said:

Feelings come and go. They don’t define reality.

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Someone's feelings DO affect their thoughts and visa versa so it might not be our reality since we don't have to live with these thoughts and feelings but they DO define that individual's reality in a literal way. For example, I have clinical depression. While I have everything I need not only just to survive but I have some luxuries in life like I can eat what I want, go where I want, and I have people in my life who love me. There is not rational reason that I should be depressed but because of thoughts, feelings, and a chemical imbalance in my brain, at times I still despair. When we are talking about personal thought and feelings, that is our personal experience of the world. The question then becomes, I have this imbalance of feelings that is not natural, what am I going to do about it to how should I treat it? There are both psychological exercises I can use and/or I can use pharmaceutical interventions. What I need to do is gather the pro's and cons of each path of treatment and make an informed decision.

I'm sure it's similar to trans people. I'm sure that some are able to dress up like a girl from time to time and that's enough. Then there are people who go through the whole shebang. Each case has to be evaluated and the treatment options need to be evaluated. I'm sure that there are varying degrees of this way of thinking and not all trans people feel the same way so our thoughts and feelings definitely color everyone's reality.

rturner76 said:

I find it hard to believe that not one doctor knows anything about the pros and cons of transitioning gender.

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Right...that thing they can't detect or measure or find.....gender.

They can't detect gender. It's not a measurable thing. They have no idea if anyone "transitions gender"...what they have is some examples of people playing "dress up" or "pretend" and no long term data on the effect of "playing dress up" on anyone with any high quality research. It's actually worse than that...because they don't really know what the effects are of giving these hormones to children and having everyone around them "affirm" these new identities....so it's entirely possible that they weren't treating trans children and instead they were making them.

I don't know why this surprises you.

You're being told they don't really know what happens if someone changes that theoretical thing that doctors can't find and certainly can’t tell if anyone transitions....with any degree of certainty.

Hey, remember back when like...3 or 4 different posters told you that other nations stopped doing this because they did large scale reviews of all the research and data and learned that this was all basically pseudoscientific quackery and hokum and the research was all low quality garbage?

That's all true. That happened. Those scientific reviews happened when a bunch of parents realized theoretical children had been messed up for life and they started complaining.

rturner76 said:

I think that one group of people they could contact is a group of doctors (preferably a pediatrition) who have experience treating this condition.

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This condition was brand new and extremely rare even 20 years ago. The idea that anyone has a pediatrician who can explain this is wrong.

It's literally what I described in my previous post. That's what being honest with the patient or the patient's parents would look like.

You can't detect or measure gender. It's possible it's something real....it's also possible it's entirely made up and doesn't exist.

If that's the basis of your "medical condition" and "medical treatment" how accurate do you think the data can get lol? How certain do you think anyone is about the medical "research"?

rturner76 said:

again, that's keeping in mind that I don't believe that there are no doctors who understand anything about this condition.

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Tell you what....find me a research paper that proves the existence of gender identity.

Otherwise, why do you think this is something that doctors can "understand"?

You know how you and a bunch of other posters struggle to explain this whole set of ideas well? You know how gender identity and transgender are difficult for you and other posters to clearly explain? It's not any different for the doctors. In fact, the experts on this theory freak out and start throwing temper tantrums when you ask them about things like "truth" and the definition of "woman".

rturner76 said:

The first thing they should do is send them to a specialist like any other condition and then tey begin the evaluation

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Nope. That's not happening. This is something cheap, dirty, and can be done over the internet in less than an hour. Then you get your pills.

rturner76 said:

There is no clinic where you walk in a boy and walk out a girl.

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We're wayyyyy past the point where it's been proven that the treating this don't require any previous interactions.

I mean...how do you know? I know you recall the whole "sexually graphic children's books incident....you didn't believe that was happening either. You thought it was just a bunch of over zealous Christians...and there was no way extremely sexually graphic material was in these books marketed to children.

Turned out that the contents of these books were in fact so graphic they couldn't show it on the evening news.

All you have to do is look...and you'll see plenty of these places are offering to yank out uteruses and cut off breasts well before a girl is 18.

rturner76 said:

And they use their knowledge best practices I'm sure but different doctors have different approaches to te treatment of any condition.

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There's the Affirmative Care model...as the official standard of care, doctors use it if they don't want to lose their medical license or get sued.

rturner76 said:

I agree with 1, 2, and 3.

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I'm actually a bit surprised you can see the sense in this.

rturner76 said:

Number 4 however I think in #4,

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Proper treatment requires an understanding of what is actually happening with the patient.

That's why I'm against gender affirming care.

The doctors basically have to agree with whatever the child claims is their gender. I'm very serious when I say that doctors who don't affirm a child's gender run the risk of losing their license. Places like Canada have made it illegal to try and convince any child who believes they are trans that they aren't....as that's considered "conversion therapy".

See the problem? If you want to figure out what is actually going on with a child....you'd need to seriously explore the possibility that they aren't actually trans and it could be situation #2 or situation #3. You'd want to do whatever you can to ensure you ruled those two possibilities out...and gender affirming care doesn't really allow for this. In California, they tried to pass a bill making it illegal for parents to deny their child's gender....and therefore a matter for Children's Protective Services. It didn't pass...but it almost did.


I mean...I've never seen a state legislator say that.

rturner76 said:

Obviously we can't open up peoples brains and extract the data we need to make the leat harmful choice

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Statistically....the least harmful choice would be to do nothing.

85% of the time this issue resolves itself, without any medical or therapeutic intervention, it tends to resolve into a gay identity for the child once they reach adulthood...so this isn't the same as "shoving them into the closet".

Statistically the safest treatment for the overwhelming majority of cases is to do quite literally nothing.

rturner76 said:

I think it is only right to give parents all of the facts so they can make an informed decision. If this group is advocating that doctor's keep that information to themselves, they are patently wrong ethically, and instead of calling it best practice, I would call it one of the worst possible practices. Are they honestly advocating drs. do that?

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Well...I can't stress this enough...they don't see being "trans" as a "medical condition". It's not a "disorder" that needs "treatment".

It's simply a claim someone makes about their identity. The whole idea about this claim is that someone cannot possibly be wrong about this claim...and if they want "treatment" like hormones to adjust their appearance to something more preferable....they should get it

rturner76 said:

Also by the activists in that group wanting people to think it's not a medical condition, they fail right out of the gate.

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Have you seen the fat activists who claim people are "healthy at any size"?

Ana the Ist said:

Right...that thing they can't detect or measure or find.....gender.

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Is that the same for something like depression?

Ana the Ist said:

They can't detect gender. It's not a measurable thing. They have no idea if anyone "transitions gender"...what they have is some examples of people playing "dress up" or "pretend" and no long term data on the effect of "playing dress up" on anyone with any high quality research. It's actually worse than that...because they don't really know what the effects are of giving these hormones to children and having everyone around them "affirm" these new identities....so it's entirely possible that they weren't treating trans children and instead they were making them.

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I think that there is a degree of measurement that can be done through revelation. I don't think it's quite as simple a a boy going to a doctor and saying "I think I'm a woman" and leaving without a penis. I think you may be trying to make a complicated issue simple and I understand that is very popular in conservative circles. There are more colors in the spectrum than black and white.

Not knowing exactly what hormones will do in every case or even most cases is why the program should not be implemented on a grand scale until they have more date.

Ana the Ist said:

Hey, remember back when like...3 or 4 different posters told you that other nations stopped doing this because they did large scale reviews of all the research and data and learned that this was all basically pseudoscientific quackery and hokum and the research was all low quality garbage?

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Other nations like Russia have make homosexuality a crime. Should we strictly go by what other people do? I don't think they found that it was pseudoscientific quackery but they may have found out that they are going onto hormone treatment and surgery too fast.

Ana the Ist said:

That's all true. That happened. Those scientific reviews happened when a bunch of parents realized theoretical children had been messed up for life and they started complaining.

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If they know that for sure they are right to not treat their children for it. That's why I say evaluate over time and try other interventions that aren't physical first.

Ana the Ist said:

This condition was brand new and extremely rare even 20 years ago. The idea that anyone has a pediatrician who can explain this is wrong.

It's literally what I described in my previous post. That's what being honest with the patient or the patient's parents would look like.

You can't detect or measure gender. It's possible it's something real....it's also possible it's entirely made up and doesn't exist.

If that's the basis of your "medical condition" and "medical treatment" how accurate do you think the data can get lol? How certain do you think anyone is about the medical "research"?

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Being honest looks like you are giving parents the best information that you know of. They have to evaluate that and make an informed decision.

Ana the Ist said:

We're wayyyyy past the point where it's been proven that the treating this don't require any previous interactions.

I mean...how do you know? I know you recall the whole "sexually graphic children's books incident....you didn't believe that was happening either. You thought it was just a bunch of over zealous Christians...and there was no way extremely sexually graphic material was in these books marketed to children.

Turned out that the contents of these books were in fact so graphic they couldn't show it on the evening news.

All you have to do is look...and you'll see plenty of these places are offering to yank out uteruses and cut off breasts well before a girl is 18.

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It may not require a physical intervention. Are you under the impression that a child can walk into a clinic and get a sex change without doing anything other than that? I highly doubt that they are cutting off breasts and castrating people willy-nilly. I'm getting the impression that if someone feels that they were born the wrong gender they simply get into the sex-change line. There is a ton of therapy and testing done before that's even on the table to discuss.

Ana the Ist said:

Proper treatment requires an understanding of what is actually happening with the patient.

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Thet is why they have specialists for this condition and are evaluating what treatments are the most effective.

Ana the Ist said:

That's why I'm against gender affirming care.

The doctors basically have to agree with whatever the child claims is their gender. I'm very serious when I say that doctors who don't affirm a child's gender run the risk of losing their license. Places like Canada have made it illegal to try and convince any child who believes they are trans that they aren't....as that's considered "conversion therapy".

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Can they get gender-affirming care if they have spent a couple years in therapy, been evaluated a number of times during their treatment, and have been deemed to be gender dysphoric? What did they teach you about that when you went t med school and got a double major in psychology specializing in the treatment of gender dysphoria?

Ana the Ist said:

See the problem? If you want to figure out what is actually going on with a child....you'd need to seriously explore the possibility that they aren't actually trans and it could be situation #2 or situation #3. You'd want to do whatever you can to ensure you ruled those two possibilities out...and gender affirming care doesn't really allow for this. In California, they tried to pass a bill making it illegal for parents to deny their child's gender....and therefore a matter for Children's Protective Services. It didn't pass...but it almost did.

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That is exactly what I have been saying....Explore it, evaluate it, test it, get more than one person to look at it from different medical and mental health specialists on the subject. I think there are extremists on every side of every argument. On your side, I am sure there are people who believe that this shouldn't be treated at all or even addressed by the medical community. Being extreme in your views doesn't mean that everyone on you "side" should have the same opinion. I think there are rare times when there should be an intervention and like you said, in most cases they get to the root of it if it's another problem that can be treated without a physical medical intervention.

Ana the Ist said:

Statistically....the least harmful choice would be to do nothing.

85% of the time this issue resolves itself, without any medical or therapeutic intervention, it tends to resolve into a gay identity for the child once they reach adulthood...so this isn't the same as "shoving them into the closet".

Statistically the safest treatment for the overwhelming majority of cases is to do quite literally nothing.

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Nothing? Nothing at all like don't even address it and simply tell the person in question that their thoughts and emotions mean nothing? Yeah, I guess that would be the conservative route to take, problem is not everyone is conservative and not everyone can turn off their thoughts and feelings unless they are a sociopath. Thruth is most of us are driven by our thoughts and emotions. If they are unhealthy or unwanted, they should be treated in a way that causes the least amount of harm.

Ana the Ist said:

Well...I can't stress this enough...they don't see being "trans" as a "medical condition". It's not a "disorder" that needs "treatment".

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Who is "they?" This particular lobby you are talking about, the average citizen, or people who deal with this personally? I'm sure you know that being a member of an extremist group who puts silly ideas online are not in control of the government correct? Try spending a little less time looking at clickbait and maybe speak to a few people who have gone through this process. Just to get some context if nothing else.

Ana the Ist said:

It's simply a claim someone makes about their identity. The whole idea about this claim is that someone cannot possibly be wrong about this claim...and if they want "treatment" like hormones to adjust their appearance to something more preferable....they should get it

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It's a claim based on their own perspective of their thoughts and feelings. Those things don't go away by simply logic-ing our way out of them. If someone is found to not be a candidate of a physical medical intervention, they still must be taught how to live with that and how to navigate those thoughts and feelings. If you simply ignore what a person thinks or feels because it doesn't meet with your particular brand of logic. The problem is compounded. Being treated for it at least offer them some hope that they can live with it and have a fairly normal life surgery, hormones or nothing.

Ana the Ist said:

Have you seen the fat activists who claim people are "healthy at any size"?

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THere is mental health and physical health and one can be mentally healthy if they are fat. Now, don't you think someone with delusional thoughts on the matter have their delusional or irrational thoughts treated or do with just ignore them and throw them is the trash with the other crazies?

rturner76 said:

Someone's feelings DO affect their thoughts and visa versa so it might not be our reality since we don't have to live with these thoughts and feelings but they DO define that individual's reality in a literal way. For example, I have clinical depression. While I have everything I need not only just to survive but I have some luxuries in life like I can eat what I want, go where I want, and I have people in my life who love me. There is not rational reason that I should be depressed but because of thoughts, feelings, and a chemical imbalance in my brain, at times I still despair. When we are talking about personal thought and feelings, that is our personal experience of the world. The question then becomes, I have this imbalance of feelings that is not natural, what am I going to do about it to how should I treat it? There are both psychological exercises I can use and/or I can use pharmaceutical interventions. What I need to do is gather the pro's and cons of each path of treatment and make an informed decision.

I'm sure it's similar to trans people. I'm sure that some are able to dress up like a girl from time to time and that's enough. Then there are people who go through the whole shebang. Each case has to be evaluated and the treatment options need to be evaluated. I'm sure that there are varying degrees of this way of thinking and not all trans people feel the same way so our thoughts and feelings definitely color everyone's reality.

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I agree, but it needs to be further researched.

RileyG said:

I agree, but it needs to be further researched.

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But the “research” needs patients to treat, (to see what sorts of treatments are safe & effective).

Pommer said:

But the “research” needs patients to treat, (to see what sorts of treatments are safe & effective).

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Yes…that’s also true…,only time will tell…

rjs330 said:

Are the so called experts immune to bias or error?
Are you also claiming that the only people questioning research surrounding this issue are biased non-experts?

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I’ve said it before and I will say it again.

How does a man know what it feels like to be a woman?

No one, absolutely no one, has answered that question.

Thanks to my state for doing this.
"Gender Affirming?"
It is the exact opposite. It is gender denial. How many kids will have their lives ruined by these brainwashers?

rjs330 said:

Once again I point out, and please don't dismiss this, this time, that gender and sex ARE the same thing to these people.
Why do you keep missing this?

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Apparently gender is all about feelings which makes no sense to me.

Can I say I am black because I identify more with the culture, even though I’m biologically white? No. That’s ridiculous.

Transgenderism is no different. It’s profoundly sexist IMO.

SavedByGrace3 said:

Thanks to my state for doing this.
"Gender Affirming?"
It is the exact opposite. It is gender denial. How many kids will have their lives ruined by these brainwashers?

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Amen!

We need to stop the trans agenda!

The life of children depend on it!