Spiritual fruit verses politics
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oikonomia
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What the Lord said was that the kingdom people should be as a city on a hill.
That is a testimony shining out as a model of righteous living.
You are the light of the world. It is impossible for a city situated upon a mountain to be hidden. (Matt. 5:14)
What the Lord said was like salt arrests the rotting process of food, the kingdom people are the salt of the earth.
Our living and presence can only somewhat hold back the degradation of all the earth's inhabitants.
You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt has become tasteless, with what shall it be salted? It is no longer good for anything except to be cast out and trampled underfoot by men. (v. 13)
But we can see the danger of Christians losing this salting function can render them ineffecteve and useless to God's linear enterprise to bring
in His reign over the earth. The enemy ever seeks to take away our salting nature by conforming us to the same as the surrounding world.
Going back to Paul's instructions, we should not take for granted that the goal of effective prayer for those in power is that we may not just live a peaceful life but a life of God manifest in the flesh - all godliness. (1 Tim. 3:16)
I exhort therefore, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings be made on behalf of all men;
On behalf of kings and all who are in high position, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all godliness and gravity.(1 Tim. 2:1,2)
The normal church life should be a testimony like a golden lampstand shining in the night - a city on the hill which cannot be hid.
Communities of men and women living in Christ by His nature and life - golden, illuminating, exposing, and guilding by their living.
Saying, What you see write in a scroll and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamos and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.
And I turned to see the voice that spoke with me; and when I turned, I saw seven golden lampstands,
And in the midst of the lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment reaching to the feet, and girded about at the breasts with a golden girdle. (Rev. 1:11-13)
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Without government there is chaos. Chaos can be overcome by just, organized means or an evil, ruthless barbarous dictator.
Say all government is bad and sit back and wait and dictatorship will win. There's a dictator waiting in the wings right now.
Say all government is bad and sit back and wait and dictatorship will win. There's a dictator waiting in the wings right now.
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expos4ever
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I am sorry but you are obviously evading my argument.
And any and all readers will surely see this.
You cannot use the "what fellowship has light with darkness" teaching as a basis to not engage with non believers in the setting of political institutions precisely because you could use the same reasoning to say we should engage with them in any setting.
And that clearly can't be right
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I've used more than that darkness verses light scripture. Revelation says the same thing btw. The world of flesh is Babylon.
We become all things to all people as Paul did. He would be neither a republican or a Democrat. He would be a friend and not a political enemy. Jesus wouldn't be Republicans and democrats warring with native Americans over land, resources and gold. I don't see the church when I see politics. I see pride, bitterness, division, fear, contention.
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expos4ever
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The simple truth is this: if Christians abdicate participation in the political sphere, the void will be filled with others whose values and goals will not be aligned with kingdom of God values.
There is no debate here - believers should indeed participate in the political process, trying to mold the world to the values Jesus has taught us.
There is no debate here - believers should indeed participate in the political process, trying to mold the world to the values Jesus has taught us.
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expos4ever
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Once more, you evade my point. Please address what I actually have written. Explain to the readers how it makes sense for Christians to stay out of the political process when this surely will mean that our values will have no influence on the institutions of our world.
You need to address this point, and not keep dancing away from my arguments.
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Politics is man's wisdom and foolishness. It divides the body of Christ. It's division, greed, envy, covetousness, discontent, complaints, rebellion, slander, gossip, fear, suspicions, conspiracies, confusion, hate, bitterness, cursing and its lording over others instead of serving them in love. It's stains the gospel of peace and takes God's grace in vain.
It's a work of flesh not the fruit of the spirit.
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expos4ever
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You are again evading! Do you not think readers will notice?
Yes, politics is full of evil and bad things. But so is the world in general! Are Christians supposed to retreat from the world and let it go to hell in a handbasket?
If we are going to have a serious discussion, you need to address the points that are raised by others.
So, for the third or fourth time, how do you defend the idea of withdrawing from the political domain since this will surely mean that Christian values will find no representation in the institutions of our world?
Please, please just answer the question!
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I only care to shine Jesus mercy and love and his gospel of peace but not contentious politics. Division, contention and worldly fears and worries are evil
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Laodicean60
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Ok Jesus. lol shakes head Do you enjoy your freedom of religion? If all Christians believed like you do you think we would have it in our founding documents, I say NO because the devil is at work in this world. I do understand
You pay taxes so do you care how it's being spent? Do you care if your tax dollars go to abortion factories?
Rom 13:1
Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
Rom 13:2
Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.
Rom 13:3
For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.
Rom 13:4
For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
Rom 13:5
Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake.
Rom 13:6
For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing.
Rom 13:7
Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.
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expos4ever
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Not sure what your point is. Are you, like HopeSings, suggesting we stay out of politics? If so, I ask the same question I asked to him/her: How do you justify your position given that, if we do not advocate for Christian values in the laws of the land, somebody else's values will become the basis for our laws and how we run our society? Do you not see the problem?
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It's not my taxes. Jesus said to give to Ceasar what is his. I don't engage in political fear mongering, worries, greed, envy, strife, debate, bitterness, slander, gossip, suspicions, conspiracies, or lording over others
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Laodicean60
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I smell hypocrite. You are debating here on this forum your view. From your posts it's shocking that that you don't believe yourself as a sinner. Where does your holier-than-thou attitude come from, not God?
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Laodicean60
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I don't think so.
Now, so we are the sinners because we participate in this forum, and yet you are here debating your point of view? Do you realize how many Christian brothers and sisters work in government and yet you have the gall to call them ungodly and bad mouth their profession? Paul and the apostles don't look like Jesus because everyone is a sinner saved or not.
I agree with you that Christians shouldn't argue which leads to contention whether it be politics, the bible, pointing out other sins, or what you are doing with your threads. Peace Out
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oikonomia
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Do you think that Daniel and his three Hebrew friends should have used thier influence to
get rid of all the astrologers, idolators, and wise men of Babylon? They were very godly men in trust of
the king Nebuchadnezzar.
And the king spoke with them. And among them all none were found like Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah; therefore they stood in the presence of the king. And in every matter of wisdom and understanding that the king inquired of them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and conjurers who were in all his realm. (Dan. 1:19,20)
The book of Daniel might have had completely different content had these Hebrews constantly labored to rid Babylon of seers, prognosticators, and magicians and lobbied only to have godly Jews make national decisions. If they were ten time wiser why didn't they just persuade Nebachuadnnezzar to go ahead and have all the wise men executed ?
And the decree went forth that the wise men should be slain; and they sought Daniel and his companions so that they might be slain. (Dan. 2:13)
Therefore Daniel went in unto Arioch, whom the king had appointed to destroy the wise men of Babylon; he went and said thus to him, Do not destroy the wise men of Babylon; bring me before the king, and I will declare the interpretation to the king. (v.24)
Somehow their testimony or (anti-testimony) has come down to us as their contribution to bringing in God's will.
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