Spiritual fruit verses politics

JimR-OCDS said:

But the United States was founded on Biblical teachings, especially the Book of Exodus.

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JimR-OCDS said:

So, we can't make people stop murdering and stealing, because it's two of God's laws. They'll just do it anyway
so let them do as they wish?

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JimR-OCDS said:

Not to be of the world affirming immorality, but living according to the commandments of God.

By your logic, why have laws and courts at all? We live as Christians and should be silent in the
face of evil, right?

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expos4ever said:

Over and over again, Jesus announced the inbreaking of the Kingdom of God. Biblically, it is clear that this is not an internal spiritual kingdom, but a real this worldly Kingdom. It would seem extremely bizarre to proclaim that Jesus is Lord on the one hand, and deny that the principles he stood for are not to be advocated for in how we structure our society.

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JimR-OCDS said:

Because Jesus knew that his followers didn't have the freedom to vote for moral leaders.

We do, so this means we need to be involved in our political system and not allow it to run amok by
being silent.

Being a good Christian doesn't mean ignoring your civil responsibility when you have it.

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JimR-OCDS said:

If you live here in the United States, you don't live under oppression and have the duty and responsibility to vote for
the moral politicians you desire. If you live in Iran or North Korea, you don't have that right.

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expos4ever said:

No one is saying America is the kingdom. The point is that, Biblically, Jesus has been enthroned as Lord over all the world, including its institutions. The goal of the church is to implement His Lordship by seeking to enshrine kingdom of God principles everywhere, including in the institutions of governance.

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expos4ever said:

No, we most certainly are not separated from the responsibility to work to mold our political institutions so that they operate according to Kingdom of God principles. I challenge you to provide any Biblical text that suggests otherwise. And who is talking about judging the world? How is being politically active entail exercising judgment over the world?

Now then, here is just one of many Biblical arguments that Jesus is a presently installed king over this present world. And since He is indeed a "political" king in this sense, how can we sit on our hands and eschew involvement in setting up that Kingdom:

From Acts 4:

On their release, Peter and John went back to their own people and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. 24When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. "Sovereign Lord," they said, "you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them. 25You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David:
"'Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
26The kings of the earth take their stand
and the rulers gather together
against the Lord
and against his Anointed One

Peter and John pray in response to the actions of the religious leaders. The prayer quotes directly from Psalm 2, verses 1 and 2 - not a co-incidence:

Why do the nations conspire
and the peoples plot in vain?
2 The kings of the earth take their stand
and the rulers gather together
against the LORD and against his Anointed One.

And what does Psalm 2 go on to say a few breaths later in respect to this "annointed one"?:

I have installed my King
on Zion, my holy hill

Assuming that Peter and John know their scriptures, they know that Psalm 2 describes rebellion against a sitting King. And more to the point, the Acts text shows that He is a king over nations – so this is not the “heavenly” kingdom so many imagine, it is a kingdom of this present world.

Do you really believe that the Holy Spirit would inspire the writer of Acts to record this prayer, which exactly echoes the Psalm 2 account of rebellion against a sitting political King, and not expect us to draw the obvious conclusion – Jesus is indeed that very King, already installed, just as Psalm 2 declares?

Even though (obviously) we do not have Jesus with us in person, his Kingship has been established.

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expos4ever said:

No, we most certainly are not separated from the responsibility to work to mold our political institutions so that they operate according to Kingdom of God principles. I challenge you to provide any Biblical text that suggests otherwise. And who is talking about judging the world? How is being politically active entail exercising judgment over the world?

Now then, here is just one of many Biblical arguments that Jesus is a presently installed king over this present world. And since He is indeed a "political" king in this sense, how can we sit on our hands and eschew involvement in setting up that Kingdom:

From Acts 4:

On their release, Peter and John went back to their own people and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. 24When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. "Sovereign Lord," they said, "you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them. 25You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David:
"'Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
26The kings of the earth take their stand
and the rulers gather together
against the Lord
and against his Anointed One

Peter and John pray in response to the actions of the religious leaders. The prayer quotes directly from Psalm 2, verses 1 and 2 - not a co-incidence:

Why do the nations conspire
and the peoples plot in vain?
2 The kings of the earth take their stand
and the rulers gather together
against the LORD and against his Anointed One.

And what does Psalm 2 go on to say a few breaths later in respect to this "annointed one"?:

I have installed my King
on Zion, my holy hill

Assuming that Peter and John know their scriptures, they know that Psalm 2 describes rebellion against a sitting King. And more to the point, the Acts text shows that He is a king over nations – so this is not the “heavenly” kingdom so many imagine, it is a kingdom of this present world.

Do you really believe that the Holy Spirit would inspire the writer of Acts to record this prayer, which exactly echoes the Psalm 2 account of rebellion against a sitting political King, and not expect us to draw the obvious conclusion – Jesus is indeed that very King, already installed, just as Psalm 2 declares?

Even though (obviously) we do not have Jesus with us in person, his Kingship has been established.

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oikonomia said:

This kind of reminds me of Proverbs 16:32 -

He who is slow to anger is better than the mighty; And he who rules his spirit, than he who captures a city.

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expos4ever said:

You could use this same "we are to have no fellowship with darkness" reasoning to say we should not get involved in the lives of sinners to help them come to faith, so this is obviously not a a valid line of reasoning. I concede that it is tricky to figure out exactly what Paul means by "have no fellowship with darkness". But it certainly cannot mean complete disengagement from those who practice sin that removes the possibility of evangelism. And that cannot be right.

And, of course, you have entirely ignored my detailed scriptural argument.

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