There is no Rapture

hal4x · Apr 11, 2024

Douggg said:
Thanks for clarifying what you were referring to.

The person confirms an existing covenant, not makes (creates) a new covenant in Daniel 9:27.

That existing covenant is the Mt. Sinai covenant that the Jews hold to. In Deuteronomy 31:9-13, Moses made a law to confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant on a 7 year cycle.

The Antichrist, acting out his role as the thought to be King of Israel messiah by the Jews, will confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant by making a big speech that God gave the land of Israel to the children of Israel as theirs forever.

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I don't know where you get that from the text but jesus dieing for for our sins confirms the covenant when he rises from the dead.

Jan001 · Apr 11, 2024

keras said:
Explain then; why did Jesus say: ....when we see that of which the Prophet Daniel spoke......if it was fulfilled in 167 BC by Antiochus 4th ?

Daniel 12:10, also said that the Prophetic Words are sealed until the time of the end. Therefore whoever wrote those footnotes, presumably some years ago; could not have had the truth of Prophecy.

The time of the end of Daniel's prophecy was first century AD.
It seems to me that Antiochus 4 prefigured the future desolating abomination spoken about by Jesus.

Jesus told his followers exactly what the desolating abomination would be. Jesus said it would be the armies encampments of the Romans. When his followers saw the Roman armies building encampments to surround Jerusalem, they were to flee in order to save their lives because the destruction of the temple and the unbelieving Jews were at hand.

Mark 13:1-2 As he was making his way out of the temple area one of his disciples said to him, “Look, teacher, what stones and what buildings!” 2 Jesus said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? There will not be one stone left upon another that will not be thrown down.”

Luke 19:43-44 For the days are coming upon you when your enemies will raise a palisade against you; they will encircle you and hem you in on all sides. 44 They will smash you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave one stone upon another within you because you did not recognize the time of your visitation.”

Matthew 24:15-17 “When you see the desolating abomination spoken of through Daniel the prophet standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those in Judea must flee to the mountains, 17 a person on the housetop must not go down to get things out of his house, 18 a person in the field must not return to get his cloak.

Luke 21:20-22 When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, know that its desolation is at hand. 21 Then those in Judea must flee to the mountains. Let those within the city escape from it, and let those in the countryside not enter the city, 22 for these days are the time of punishment when all the scriptures are fulfilled.

hal4x · Apr 11, 2024

Jan001 said:
The time of the end of Daniel's prophecy was first century AD.
It seems to me that Antiochus 4 prefigured the future desolating abomination spoken about by Jesus.

Jesus told his followers exactly what the desolating abomination would be. Jesus said it would be the armies encampments of the Romans. When his followers saw the Roman armies building encampments to surround Jerusalem, they were to flee in order to save their lives because the destruction of the temple and the unbelieving Jews were at hand.

Mark 13:1-2 As he was making his way out of the temple area one of his disciples said to him, “Look, teacher, what stones and what buildings!” 2 Jesus said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? There will not be one stone left upon another that will not be thrown down.”

Luke 19:43-44 For the days are coming upon you when your enemies will raise a palisade against you; they will encircle you and hem you in on all sides. 44 They will smash you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave one stone upon another within you because you did not recognize the time of your visitation.”

Matthew 24:15-17 “When you see the desolating abomination spoken of through Daniel the prophet standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those in Judea must flee to the mountains, 17 a person on the housetop must not go down to get things out of his house, 18 a person in the field must not return to get his cloak.

Luke 21:20-22 When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, know that its desolation is at hand. 21 Then those in Judea must flee to the mountains. Let those within the city escape from it, and let those in the countryside not enter the city, 22 for these days are the time of punishment when all the scriptures are fulfilled.

Yes finally someone gets it Daniel and revelation pointing to 70ad

keras · Apr 11, 2024

Jan001 said:
The time of the end of Daniel's prophecy was first century AD.

So; when did 2 Thess 2:4 happen?

hal4x said:
Yes finally someone gets it Daniel and revelation pointing to 70ad

In no way does the Prophesies of Revelation fit into the first Century.
Preterism is just an escapist theory and simply leaves people in the dark about the soon to come; end times events.

Kokavkrystallos · Apr 11, 2024

keras said:
So; when did 2 Thess 2:4 happen?

In no way does the Prophesies of Revelation fit into the first Century.
Preterism is just an escapist theory and simply leaves people in the dark about the soon to come; end times events.

Especially considering they were written AFTER 70 AD when the temple was destroyed, and in the closing 5 years of that century!
Revelation is companion to Daniel, but just as Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, there are parts in Daniel that point to the turbulent times between the crucifixion and 70 AD, then shift to later times. Revelation of course unseals some of what was sealed in Daniel, but also keeps some things sealed, such as the 7 thunders in Rev. 10:3-4.

Further, you cannot reconcile chapter 14 on with anything that's previously happened, though I understand some people try to allegorize and spiritualize it away. Certainly nothing in history can conform to Revelation 19 on. Christ has NOT returned in righteousness to judge and make war. We are not living in the millennium, the church is not going to make the world better, in fact the church (professing) is declining, but that will leave the remnant elect. Certainly there's been no great white throne judgment, or new heavens and earth.

Preterism is a wicked and diabolic heresy which is fostered by Satan the prince of lies in an attempt to woo people into thinking things really won't get that bad, because (as he & they teach) they already happened!

hal4x · Apr 11, 2024

Kokavkrystallos said:
Especially considering they were written AFTER 70 AD when the temple was destroyed, and in the closing 5 years of that century!
Revelation is companion to Daniel, but just as Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, there are parts in Daniel that point to the turbulent times between the crucifixion and 70 AD, then shift to later times. Revelation of course unseals some of what was sealed in Daniel, but also keeps some things sealed, such as the 7 thunders in Rev. 10:3-4.

Further, you cannot reconcile chapter 14 on with anything that's previously happened, though I understand some people try to allegorize and spiritualize it away. Certainly nothing in history can conform to Revelation 19 on. Christ has NOT returned in righteousness to judge and make war. We are not living in the millennium, the church is not going to make the world better, in fact the church (professing) is declining, but that will leave the remnant elect. Certainly there's been no great white throne judgment, or new heavens and earth.

Preterism is a wicked and diabolic heresy which is fostered by Satan the prince of lies in an attempt to woo people into thinking things really won't get that bad, because (as he & they teach) they already happened!

Partial preterist luke 21 abomination of desolation.

Jan001 · Apr 11, 2024

keras said:
So; when did 2 Thess 2:4 happen?

2 Thessalonians 2:1-11 We ask you, brothers, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling with him, 2 not to be shaken out of your minds suddenly, or to be alarmed either by a “spirit,” or by an oral statement, or by a letter allegedly from us to the effect that the day of the Lord is at hand. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For unless the apostasy comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one doomed to perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god and object of worship, so as to seat himself in the temple of God, claiming that he is a god— 5 do you not recall that while I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. But the one who restrains is to do so only for the present, until he is removed from the scene. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord [Jesus] will kill with the breath of his mouth and render powerless by the manifestation of his coming, 9 the one whose coming springs from the power of Satan in every mighty deed and in signs and wonders that lie, 10 and in every wicked deceit for those who are perishing because they have not accepted the love of truth so that they may be saved. 11 Therefore, God is sending them a deceiving power so that they may believe the lie, 12 that all who have not believed the truth but have approved wrongdoing may be condemned.

"With regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (at the end of time) and our assembling with him," (meeting together in the air) the apostasy will come first and the lawless one will be revealed... he will exalt himself so as to seat himself in the temple of God.... the Lord Jesus will kill him with the breath of his mouth and render him powerless by the manifestation of his coming.

Is the coming of Jesus in vs. 8 a physical coming like his coming in vs. 1, which will be at the end of time, or will it be a non-physical coming of judgment upon the lawless one by the power of Jesus?

Many people believe that vs. 8 was Jesus' non-physical coming in judgment, using the Roman armies to destroy the unbelieving Jews in first century AD, because they had rejected him as their savior. Jesus judged Nero as well, because he caused great tribulation for the Christians after he blamed them for the fire in Rome.

The physical coming of Jesus in vs. 1 will not happen until the end of time when all the dead are raised. John 5:28-29

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 We do not want you to be unaware, brothers, about those who have fallen asleep, so that you may not grieve like the rest, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose, so too will God, through Jesus, bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, console one another with these words.

Paul explains that these things must first happen before the church on earth rises to meet Jesus in the clouds: apostasy, the lawless one revealed, and the lawless one's desecration of the temple.

We know that Jesus Christ's powerful judgment caused the Roman armies to defeat the unbelieving Jews and destroy their temple and city. The early Christians believed Nero, 666, was the lawless one. He died in 68 AD, after ordering his private secretary, Epaphroditus, to kill him. Nero had been officially designated as "public enemy" of Rome. When the temple was desecrated by the presence of the pagan Roman soldiers, they most likely worshiped Caesar as their god in thanksgiving for their victory. The temple was destroyed in 68 AD according to traditional rabbinic literature. So, then, 2 Thessalonians 2:4 may have been fulfilled in 68 AD. Apocalyptic literature is difficult to decipher.

Who is the antichrist? He is any person who denies the divinity of Jesus Christ.

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour. As you have heard that the antichrist will come, even now there are many antichrists. By this we know that it is the last hour.

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? Whoever denies the Father and the Son is the antichrist.

1 John 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and is already in the world.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers, who do not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Each one is a deceiver and an antichrist.

keras said:
In no way does the Prophesies of Revelation fit into the first Century.
Preterism is just an escapist theory and simply leaves people in the dark about the soon to come; end times events.

Apocalyptic-style literature uses symbolism to explain spiritual and physical events. The Book of Revelation, at the time it was written, depicted past events, soon-to-be events, and future events, all in a symbolic manner.

Jan001 · Apr 11, 2024

Kokavkrystallos said:
Especially considering they were written AFTER 70 AD when the temple was destroyed, and in the closing 5 years of that century!
Revelation is companion to Daniel, but just as Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, there are parts in Daniel that point to the turbulent times between the crucifixion and 70 AD, then shift to later times. Revelation of course unseals some of what was sealed in Daniel, but also keeps some things sealed, such as the 7 thunders in Rev. 10:3-4.

Further, you cannot reconcile chapter 14 on with anything that's previously happened, though I understand some people try to allegorize and spiritualize it away. Certainly nothing in history can conform to Revelation 19 on. Christ has NOT returned in righteousness to judge and make war. We are not living in the millennium, the church is not going to make the world better, in fact the church (professing) is declining, but that will leave the remnant elect. Certainly there's been no great white throne judgment, or new heavens and earth.

Preterism is a wicked and diabolic heresy which is fostered by Satan the prince of lies in an attempt to woo people into thinking things really won't get that bad, because (as he & they teach) they already happened!

The Book of Revelation was written in the 60s AD.

John was commanded to measure the temple, which had to be still standing, in order for him to measure it.

Revelation 11:1-3 Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told: “Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, 2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample over the holy city for forty-two months. 3 And I will grant my two witnesses power to prophesy for one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

In the first century AD, the Roman armies trampled over the city of Jerusalem for forty-two months (three and a half years). The two witnesses were the Law and the Prophets. If the Jews had believed the prophecies in the Law and the Prophets concerning Jesus Christ, they would have accepted him as their Messiah, and they would not have been destroyed. Luke 16:31, Luke 19:43-44

Douggg · Apr 12, 2024

hal4x said:
I don't know where you get that from the text but jesus dieing for for our sins confirms the covenant when he rises from the dead.

Jesus's death and resurrection is the new covenant. Jesus did not confirm the new covenant. Jesus is the new covenant.

The prince that shall come will confirm the existing Mt. Sinai covenant that the Jews hold to, which the confirming process is by a law made by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

That 7 years is in Ezekiel 39:9-10 following the destruction of Gog's army of the Gog/Magog event. Also, the seven years are in Revelation 12. Revelation 12:6, the 1260 days, as the first half. Revelation 12:14, the time/times/half time as fitting into the second half.

compoinets of the seven years in Revelaiton5 update .jpg

hal4x · Apr 12, 2024

Douggg said:
Jesus's death and resurrection is the new covenant. Jesus did not confirm the new covenant. Jesus is the new covenant.

The prince that shall come will confirm the existing Mt. Sinai covenant that the Jews hold to, which the confirming process is by a law made by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

That 7 years is in Ezekiel 39:9-10 following the destruction of Gog's army of the Gog/Magog event. Also, the seven years are in Revelation 12. Revelation 12:6, the 1260 days, as the first half. Revelation 12:14, the time/times/half time as fitting into the second half.

The physical coming of Jesus in vs. 1 will not happen until the end of time when all the dead are raised. John 5:28-29
This is resurrection/rapture end of time the last day judgement day. To say revelation was talking about past events but internal evidence disagrees. If we can't accept rev 1:1-3 we'll then we just started adding and subtracting from word of god. Things to take place shortly for the time is at hand tells us it's on the horizon not 2000 + yrs. Daniel was told to seal up prophesy for the time was far off. If we didn't understand the at hand part in last chapter in revelation angel tells John NOT TO SEAL UP PROPHESY FOR THE TIME IS AT HAN. Think about it. Temple destroyed in ayg 70ad not 68 nero died in 68

View attachment 345756

Douggg · Apr 12, 2024

hal4x wrote:

The physical coming of Jesus in vs. 1 will not happen until the end of time when all the dead are raised. John 5:28-29
This is resurrection/rapture end of time the last day judgement day.

I don't know what verse 1 you are referring to. But I do agree that John 5:28-29 is referring to the Great White Throne Judgment in Revelation 20.

The Gog/Magog event of Ezekiel 38-39, however, is not the Gog and Magog referral in Revelation 20 at the end of the thousand years. The Gog and Magog referral in Revelation 20 is indicating that it will be that same nations that took part in the Ezekiel 38-39 event a thousand years earlier.

Here are the major events in order...

Gog/Magog.......7 years......Armageddon....Jesus Second Coming......millennium......Gog-Magog.....John 5:28-29, Great White Throne Judgment

Ezekiel 39 breakdown:

In Ezekiel 39, the destruction of Gog's army verses 1-6
In Ezekiel 39, then followed by 7 years verses 9-10 (the 70th week )
In Ezekiel 39, then the Armageddon event verses 17-20
In Ezekiel 39, then Jesus's return to this earth verses 21-29, His Second Coming

hal4x · Apr 12, 2024

Douggg said:
I don't know what verse 1 you are referring to. But I do agree that John 5:28-29 is referring to the Great White Throne Judgment in Revelation 20.

The Gog/Magog event of Ezekiel 38-39, however, is not the Gog and Magog referral in Revelation 20 at the end of the thousand years. The Gog and Magog referral in Revelation 20 is indicating that it will be that same nations that took part in the Ezekiel 38-39 event a thousand years earlier.

Here are the major events in order...

Gog/Magog.......7 years......Armageddon....Jesus Second Coming......millennium......Gog-Magog.....John 5:28-29, Great White Throne Judgment

Ezekiel 39 breakdown:

In Ezekiel 39, the destruction of Gog's army verses 1-6
In Ezekiel 39, then followed by 7 years verses 9-10 (the 70th week )
In Ezekiel 39, then the Armageddon event verses 17-20
In Ezekiel 39, then Jesus's return to this earth verses 21-29, His Second Revelation 1 verses 1-3. The book recapitulates over and over. The book has 404 verses 278 are referring to OT verses which is the first hint how to understand the book. You don't really think gog and magog will resurface again do you?

Douggg · Apr 12, 2024

hal4x. you are using the reply system incorrectly. What to do is click on the reply action, which you did correctly.

But instead of typing your reply within the quoted box - start typing your reply below the box.

I will show you with an example.... See how it is done in this post by Jan001 in replying to what keras posted. Jan001 first clicked on the reply action. But Jan001 did not start his typing in the box, but below it.

Douggg · Apr 12, 2024

The book has 404 verses 278 are referring to OT verses which is the first hint how to understand the book. You don't really think gog and magog will resurface again do you?

What book are you referring to ?

Yes, it will be the same nations as took part in the Gog/Magog event of Ezekiel 38-39 a thousand years earlier.

hal4x · Apr 12, 2024

Douggg said:
What book are you referring to ?

Yes, it will be the same nations as took part in the Gog/Magog event of Ezekiel 38-39 a thousand years earlier.

Revelation 1 1-3 Read in Ezekiel and you tell me what nations they are. A thousand threw out scripture is always used in metaphorically so why in the most symbolic book would it change to literal?

Douggg · Apr 12, 2024

hal4x said:
Revelation 1 1-3 Read in Ezekiel and you tell me what nations they are. A thousand threw out scripture is always used in metaphorically so why in the most symbolic book would it change to literal?

There is a lot of opinion who makes up the Gog/Magog group. But Russia, Persia (Iran), Ethiopia, Libya, for sure. Probably also Turkey and Syria.

Gog/Magog nations - Bing

Intelligent search from Bing makes it easier to quickly find what you’re looking for and rewards you.

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----------------------------

When combined as a "thousand years", here are the 9 instances. 6 of the 9instances are in Revelation 20.

Gog/Magog nations - Bing

Intelligent search from Bing makes it easier to quickly find what you’re looking for and rewards you.

www.bing.com

hal4x · Apr 12, 2024

Douggg said:
There is a lot of opinion who makes up the Gog/Magog group. But Russia, Persia (Iran), Ethiopia, Libya, for sure. Probably also Turkey and Syria.

Gog/Magog nations - Bing

Intelligent search from Bing makes it easier to quickly find what you’re looking for and rewards you.

www.bing.com

----------------------------

When combined as a "thousand years", here are the 9 instances. 6 of the 9instances are in Revelation 20.

Gog/Magog nations - Bing

Intelligent search from Bing makes it easier to quickly find what you’re looking for and rewards you.

www.bing.com

I think you are missing the point. 404 verses in the book of revelation 278 are referencing OT passages. The book of revelation is a warning and judgements. Like every thing in 7s ( hint hint)

Jan001 · Apr 14, 2024

Douggg said:
Jesus's death and resurrection is the new covenant. Jesus did not confirm the new covenant. Jesus is the new covenant.

The prince that shall come will confirm the existing Mt. Sinai covenant that the Jews hold to, which the confirming process is by a law made by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

That 7 years is in Ezekiel 39:9-10 following the destruction of Gog's army of the Gog/Magog event. Also, the seven years are in Revelation 12. Revelation 12:6, the 1260 days, as the first half. Revelation 12:14, the time/times/half time as fitting into the second half.

View attachment 345756

The 70th week of Daniel was fulfilled in the first century AD. The 70th week followed the 69th week, the same way as the 69th week followed the 68th week.

Jesus tells his followers that Daniel's prophecy will soon be fulfilled. Jesus said the abomination of desolation will be the armies' encampments outside of Jerusalem. The Roman armies destroyed Jerusalem in the first century AD.

Matthew 24:15-17 So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.

Luke 21:20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.

Most of the Book of Revelation was fulfilled in the first century AD. Jesus claimed his prophecies would be fulfilled within "this" generation, and they were fulfilled within 40 years, which was one generation.

BobRyan · Apr 14, 2024

keras said:
The issue of a 'rapture to heaven' for the Church is far from being accepted by many people who seriously study this belief. So believers in that idea cannot just assume that a rapture will happen.

Believers in the 1 Thess 4:13-18, Matt 24:29-33 rapture event don't claim to believe in it because it is the most popular doctrine in Christianity.

One the most popular doctrines (by the numbers) is something like "communion with the dead" found in the Catholic Catechism. Still a lot of us don't believe in that one.

keras said:
They say; We Christians are not appointed to wrath. And this is a true statement, but it doesn't in any way mean that God intends to remove His people to heaven,

That is a good point.

BobRyan · Apr 14, 2024

Jan001 said:
The 70th week of Daniel was fulfilled in the first century AD. The 70th week followed the 69th week, the same way as the 69th week followed the 68th week.

true.

Jan001 said:
Jesus tells his followers that Daniel's prophecy will soon be fulfilled. Jesus said the abomination of desolation will be the armies' encampments outside of Jerusalem. The Roman armies destroyed Jerusalem in the first century AD.

true.

Jan001 said:
Matthew 24:15-17 So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.

Luke 21:20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.

yep.

But the rest of Matt 24 is future to the first century and vs 27-33 is future to our day in most respects.

Jan001 said:
Most of the Book of Revelation was fulfilled in the first century AD

Must of it was future to the first century and all of Rev 16-22 is future to our day.

A lot of Rev 14 is still future.

Jan001 said:
. Jesus claimed his prophecies would be fulfilled within "this" generation, and they were fulfilled within 40 years

no he said the generation that saw all those signs - would see Christ literal visible return to Earth. That is still future.

There is no Rapture

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