Some call it Politics but I call it Getting involved in order to Christianize society

discombobulated1

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A Christian society would do more to welcome desperate immigrants, dehumanize no one and make sure no children are malnourished.
That's what the liberal media would have us believe. But remember, they are brainwashing us with their liberal ideology that is destroying our country. There are LAWS in place and this admin is violating those laws so as to let in D VOTERS. They know most Americans do NOT believe as they do, will not vote for them. Hence, the lawlessness of letting people in.

Those who support this kind of thing are violating the Bible's command to obey man's laws (unless doing so somehow violates God's superseding Laws). It is totally lawless to allow STRANGERS into one's country who will rob, rape, and murder you and/or your fellow citizens, while violating the laws and the Constitution. We cannot sustain this level of lawlessness and remain a strong country. We cannot have just anyone entering our country. China is sending young men over the border. China wants to rule the world. China is UN-Christian. The Catholic Church and other Christian communities have been against Communism for centuries. But of course, we modern folk know better... ha ha.. what a joke. Truth does not change; God does not change.
 
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AlexB23

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I haven't read all of this but I already disagree, to some extent. Religion cannot be separated from involvement in governing! That is what we have today, with all these elite politicians violating every commandment of Christ in the name of "freedom." But as is said in the Word, being in sin is bondage, not freedom. And whatever you may call it, many "freedoms" harm people. The best example is the "freedom" to abort your children. I often feel more sorry for thewoman than for the child because the child's sufferings last for a time, then he or she goes to a better place. The womn is left to live with what she has done. I've read books on Post Abortion Syndrome. It is horrible. Often, even when the woman goes to confession or in other ways repents, she can't live with herself. Some commit suicide. Many of them cannot forgive themselves...
Well, I am a pro-life guy here. Even secular laws say "do not kill", so it is strange why folks can get an abortion for just about anything. Abortion should only be used if both mother and baby are at risk (such as with incest or r*pe cases).
 
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discombobulated1

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Well, I am a pro-life guy here. Even secular laws say "do not kill", so it is strange why folks can get an abortion for just about anything. Abortion should only be used if both mother and baby are at risk (such as with incest or r*pe cases).
Incest or rape?

But the child did not break the law. The child should not lose his/her life because of the sin/crime of the father. And again, abortion really messes up (most) women. The psycho women probably coudn't care less but women who like children... and/or are of good will overall are really damaged by abortion--Post Abortion Syndrome-- and some cannot live w/ themselves. Many turn to drugs/alochol, even promiscuous sex to escape reality

Even if a child is the result ofrape or incest, it is still MURDER to abort him/her. The way a lot of state laws read, it's saying Murder is not OK unless your life came about in an abnormal way. Then getting rid of the child is OK

How does the way in which you were conceived change the fact that you are a human being created by God?

No, we have to protect ALL human life.

Only God can create life and only HE has the right to take it
 
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expos4ever

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Well, Jesus didn't mix them. Render unto Caesar... remember? Jesus NEVER mixed them and if He is Our Example, then...
First, I have been convinced that the famous "render unto Caesar..." discourse has been widely misunderstood. I will not make the argument in this post, but the basic idea is that when Jesus says to render unto Caesar what is due to Caesar, he is actually being "sarcastic", and implying that nothing belongs to Caesar, it all belongs to God. I realize that almost all Christians believe as you do on this matter of the "render unto Caesar" text. But I think they are mistaken.

Besides, I think there are many many reasons to believe that Jesus did not believe in separating "religion" and politics. In the context of His day, when Jesus announces the arrival of the kingdom of God, he was talking about a real Kingdom, not some mysterious Kingdom of the inner person.

I believe there are many more arguments that could be marshaled to the effect that Jesus did not separate religion and politics. But I won't get into them in this post.

In case someone is going to bring up the "my kingdom is not of this world teaching", I will advise you to look carefully at the original Greek. As with the other text about rendering to Caesar, I think this text has been widely misunderstood. Jesus is not saying that his is a kingdom that is not of this world, he is saying it is a kingdom that does not derive its values from this world.
 
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dogs4thewin

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You do not want a government that is too Christ-centered in this fallen world. It does not work never has and until Christ comes back it never will. it has been tried and fails BADLY.
 
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lifepsyop

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One thing I have learned about American Christians is that they absolutely hate the idea of returning to Christendom, or a Christian Kingdom. Liberalized society is sacred to them. Democracy is sacred to them and they are willing to kill to protect it. But a society officially organized around Christianity is something that American Christians (generally speaking) have no interest in as it violates the tenets of a revolutionary faith based on individual liberty. Completely unbiblical of course, but that is America's tradition.
 
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MarkSB

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First, I have been convinced that the famous "render unto Caesar..." discourse has been widely misunderstood. I will not make the argument in this post, but the basic idea is that when Jesus says to render unto Caesar what is due to Caesar, he is actually being "sarcastic", and implying that nothing belongs to Caesar, it all belongs to God. I realize that almost all Christians believe as you do on this matter of the "render unto Caesar" text. But I think they are mistaken.

Besides, I think there are many many reasons to believe that Jesus did not believe in separating "religion" and politics. In the context of His day, when Jesus announces the arrival of the kingdom of God, he was talking about a real Kingdom, not some mysterious Kingdom of the inner person.

I believe there are many more arguments that could be marshaled to the effect that Jesus did not separate religion and politics. But I won't get into them in this post.

In case someone is going to bring up the "my kingdom is not of this world teaching", I will advise you to look carefully at the original Greek. As with the other text about rendering to Caesar, I think this text has been widely misunderstood. Jesus is not saying that his is a kingdom that is not of this world, he is saying it is a kingdom that does not derive its values from this world.

Fair enough. Neither Jesus nor His apostles held politics or gaining political power as their highest priority though (from the scriptures, it didn't even seem to rank in their top 10). Yet that is not what we are seeing in American Christianity. What we are seeing now is religion that is defined by politics. And on the right wing side of the spectrum, it's a full on embrace of Christian Nationalism. I hardly think that is what Christ wants his church to pursue.

And in the context of Christian Nationalism, I would argue that the "my kingdom is not of this world" teaching, as you have defined it, is very valid. Those who are pushing/pursuing Christian Nationalism are attempting to supplant the Church of Christ and biblical Christian ethics with partisan politics and worldly political power. I've said it many times before and I'll say it again - it is such blatant and obvious idolatry, it's bewildering how it can go unrecognized by so many.

I encounter so many Christians who, when you talk to them about their faith, always tend to bring up political views and issues which sometimes have little or nothing to do with Christianity. (Global warming, electric cars, or immigration for example). It has become so intertwined with their faith / belief system, that I wonder if they can even separate the two. For some of them - if you removed their political views from their belief system entirely, I wonder if there would be anything left that even resembled Christianity or biblical Christian beliefs.

And that's not meant to be condemning - we all get caught up in political 'fervor' from time to time. But for many now, it just seems to have this grip on them, and it really puts the blinders on them and gives them tunnel vision. There needs to be an understanding that our government (by law) is a secular institution - and it should stay that way. The commission which has been given to us is not to force Christian beliefs upon the masses. The vehicle which has been identified for the spreading of the good news is the Church of Christ, and it is to be done by the power of the Holy Spirit. Not by government and man-made laws.
 
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discombobulated1

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My gov gives us a public holiday for Jesus birth and another public holiday for his death and resurrection.
And our politicians say the lords prayer before each parliamentary sitting , and so far all seems good , no complaints here.
You must not know much about what is going on in our capitol!

All is FAR from good and those of us who follow such news have complaints galore :eek:
 
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discombobulated1

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You do not want a government that is too Christ-centered in this fallen world. It does not work never has and until Christ comes back it never will. it has been tried and fails BADLY.
I have not found that to be true at all.

And no country has tried it, to speak of, in modern times
 
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expos4ever

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Fair enough. Neither Jesus nor His apostles held politics or gaining political power as their highest priority though (from the scriptures, it didn't even seem to rank in their top 10).
I have a lot of sympathy for what is in your post. However, I believe the uncomfortable truth is that Scripture teaches that Jesus is indeed the enthroned "political" leader of the world whether people accept it or not.

For example, through a cryptic statement made to Caiaphus, Jesus declares He will very shortly become King. Note what Jesus says to Caiaphus when the latter ask if He is “Christ” (this means “king”, although readers may dispute this):

"Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?" 62And Jesus said, "I am; and you shall see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."

The reference to sitting at the right hand of power comes from Psalm 110:

The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand…”

The “coming with the clouds of heaven” statement is an allusion to this material from Daniel 7:

I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the (O)hair of His head like pure wool

His (P)throne was ablaze with flames,

………
"I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming
,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.

And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him

His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.


From both these references, it is clear that Jesus intends Caiaphus to see Him (Jesus) in the role of the Son of Man figure who gets presented to the Ancient of Days (YHWH) and takes the other of the two thrones (note the multiplicity of thrones in the Daniel material).

Among the many rich implications of this passage we have this: In this scenario, YHWH gets seated (apart from what happens to the Son of Man figure). This is a clear allusion to the enthronement of YHWH, fulfilling the deeply held, and scripturally sustained, Jewish expectation that YHWH will, at some point, become King of all the world.

Is Jesus king over the earth? Yes - we have clear allusions to Jesus as one who, having already been seated, is now ruling over all nations and peoples.

And, I suggest, there are many other Biblical texts that teach, uncomfortable though it may be to accept, that Jesus is indeed a real "political" King. After all, in what sense would Jesus be a king if he were only ruling over our "inner lives" and not over the way we structure and operate our larger society?

Now then, let me state the obvious: even if we establish that Jesus is a true king and that we are called to participate in making that concrete in all spheres of human activity (and I believe we are called to do so), there is a further question: what are the values that we want enshrined in public life?

I cannot answer that definitively but one thing is clear: they are not, for the most part at least, the values of the American evangelical right. And it is equally obvious that the last person one would reasonably say represents Christlikeness is one Donald J. Trump.
 
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discombobulated1

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And it is equally obvious that the last person one would reasonably say represents Christlikeness is one Donald J. Trump.
and just WHY is that?

I guess you like the alternative better? someone who claims to be a Catholic but violates all Catholic principles, someone who also violates federal law to let just any person into our country, people we don't know from Adam who do all kinds of evil here. But then maybe you don't watch the news stations that report that ? Even so, you don't have to watch TV to utilize the common sense God gave u to realize that a country cannot allow just any stranger into it. It is obvious WHY: human nature. Humans are sinners, in case u never noticed. Would you let some strange sinner into your home, welcome him or her, etc, not knowing WHAT sins the person is prone to commit? Trump took care of such worries for us.

We have only 2 choices. Trump is pro Christian even if he hasn't as yet, that i know of, claimed to be a Christian himself. But I say he is and just has to also include in his governance, if he becomes president, those who are not Christian... But promoting Bibles is sort of a clue. Helping overturn legalized child murder aka abortion (Roe) is another
 
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expos4ever

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and just WHY is that?
Why is DonaldTrump not a good example of Christlikeness? That is a hanging curveball:

Here is one senior church leader's position:

The Rev. Albert Mohler, president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, backed Trump in 2020 but said recently on his radio show that he’s now had enough.

“Christians begin with the clear biblical truth that no sinful human being has a perfect character, but even as we grade presidents on something of a curve, some stand out as particularly lacking in character,” Mohler said. “Donald J. Trump is certainly one of those presidents.”


And how about claims of adultery, bragging about sexual assault, paying hush money to an adult film star, not to mention an embarrassing litany of tweets are so juvenile and immature, they are beyond reproach. Just one example where he insults Rosie O'Donnell:

"Can you imagine the parents of Kelli ... when she said, 'Mom, Dad, I just fell in love with a big, fat pig named Rosie?'"

Can you imagine Jesus of Nazareth telling pharisee that the pharisee's wife is "a big fat pig"?

I guess you like the alternative better?
Not the point - we are not talking about Joe Biden. Let's say you are right - that he is an awful guy. So what? This is not the point! I said Trump was a dreadful example of Christlikeness. Mr Biden's status is another question altogether.
Even so, you don't have to watch TV to utilize the common sense God gave u to realize that a country cannot allow just any stranger into it.
And where is your evidence that Mr. Biden would want to allow anybody into your country? I suggest this is just vapor and fearmongering from you - you have no credible evidence whatsoever to support your implication that Biden support entirely unrestricted entry into your country.
 
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discombobulated1

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One thing I have learned about American Christians is that they absolutely hate the idea of returning to Christendom, or a Christian Kingdom. Liberalized society is sacred to them. Democracy is sacred to them and they are willing to kill to protect it. But a society officially organized around Christianity is something that American Christians (generally speaking) have no interest in as it violates the tenets of a revolutionary faith based on individual liberty. Completely unbiblical of course, but that is America's tradition.
I agree.

Most Christians cannot effectively, it seems, separated "American" ideas from Christian ones. I'm talking about those who don't really study their faith or read Scripture much. A lot of our founders used Scripture in their decision making processes re the Constitution and other documents. But there seems to be.. well, some, when faced w/ a choice btw Christian values and strictly "freedom" ones will choose the latter because Freedom is God today. That's why people readily accept murder of the unborn: because people invoke FREEDOM (the "god") and people love freedom and don't stop to think that what they are proposing to advance freedom is the murder of an innocent child.

Or, if they realize it is indeed murder, and how can they not?, they nonetheless distort reality and choose murder anyway... all because of that great god Freedom

of course the Word says that SIN is bondage, not freedom
 
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discombobulated1

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Why is DonaldTrump not a good example of Christlikeness? That is a hanging curveball:

Here is one senior church leader's position:

The Rev. Albert Mohler, president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, backed Trump in 2020 but said recently on his radio show that he’s now had enough.

“Christians begin with the clear biblical truth that no sinful human being has a perfect character, but even as we grade presidents on something of a curve, some stand out as particularly lacking in character,” Mohler said. “Donald J. Trump is certainly one of those presidents.”


And how about claims of adultery, bragging about sexual assault, paying hush money to an adult film star, not to mention an embarrassing litany of tweets are so juvenile and immature, they are beyond reproach. Just one example where he insults Rosie O'Donnell:

"Can you imagine the parents of Kelli ... when she said, 'Mom, Dad, I just fell in love with a big, fat pig named Rosie?'"

Can you imagine Jesus of Nazareth telling pharisee that the pharisee's wife is "a big fat pig"?


Not the point - we are not talking about Joe Biden. Let's say you are right - that he is an awful guy. So what? This is not the point! I said Trump was a dreadful example of Christlikeness. Mr Biden's status is another question altogether.

And where is your evidence that Mr. Biden would want to allow anybody into your country? I suggest this is just vapor and fearmongering from you - you have no credible evidence whatsoever to support your implication that Biden support entirely unrestricted entry into your country.
I refuse to answer on the grounds I will likely say something that some would construe to be VERY UNCharitable

I'll just say you are WRONG as can be
 
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expos4ever

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I refuse to answer on the grounds I will likely say something that some would construe to be VERY UNCharitable

I'll just say you are WRONG as can be
I think an objective reader will see this as an evasion. You asked me to support my claim that Donald Trump is not a very good representative of the body of Christ. I have presented only a small body of the evidence that is available to support this claim.

A neutral reader will wonder why you are not responding to the evidence I have provided.

And believe me, there is much more. Oh, there is so much more.
 
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discombobulated1

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I think an objective reader will see this as an evasion. You asked me to support my claim that Donald Trump is not a very good representative of the body of Christ. I have presented only a small body of the evidence that is available to support this claim.

A neutral reader will wonder why you are not responding to the evidence I have provided.

And believe me, there is much more. Oh, there is so much more.
"Judge not, lest you be judged" Jesus said, "for by what measure you mete, so shall it be meted unto you." I'm sick of people judging Trump when God knows what sins they themselves indulge in. And we are all sinners, so it can be assumed easily that those who hate Trump are egregious sinners. I mean, Jesus said that FEW find the narrow way to Heaven, which implies most people end up in Hell.

When I or some other R criticizes the current admin, we use FACTS and logic. The other side, not so much. It's just Trump is bad, Trump is blah blah blah
 
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expos4ever

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"Judge not, lest you be judged" Jesus said, "for by what measure you mete, so shall it be meted unto you." I'm sick of people judging Trump when God knows what sins they themselves indulge in
Really? This is your reply? If you had asked me to give evidence that Hitler was a bad person, and I did, would you respond in this manner, suggesting that I have no right to judge Hitler because we are not supposed to judge?

Again, I have presented evidence that Donald Trump is most certainly not a model for Christians. Are you going to actually respond to this evidence? Do you think it's appropriate or a Christian to be consorting with adult film actresses? To be breaking numerous other laws? To call other people big fat pigs?

And I could wear my keypad out giving other examples of Mr Trump's highly unethical behavior.
we use FACTS and logic. The other side, not so much. It's just Trump is bad, Trump is blah blah blah
Are you serious? I have presented a litany of facts about Mr Trump. Yes, Trump is bad. And I have presented evidence that this is the case, and I'm more than happy to present much more evidence.
 
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