Is believing/faith a work ?

AbbaLove · Mar 7, 2024

Brightfame52 said:
I dont know what in the world you talking about.

B Griffin said:
[Maybe one day you will. I hope so.

It's becoming quite apparent that Bf52 doesn't believe that the "works" in James 2 are the result of the prompting by the Holy Spirit. Bf52s defintion of "works"(James 2) doesn't take into account the manifest "fruit" as obedience to the Lord being prompted by the Holy Spirit.

He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5)

Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God (John 3:5)

Is it possible Bf52 doesn't really understand "reform theology" with respect to "works" (fruit) in James 2 ...

14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

Is Bf52 disobedient when prompted by the Holy Spirit to manifest good fruit for fear of doing a good "work" as guided by the Holy Spirit?

Who is Bf52 to judge a born again new creation in Christ for manifesting good fruit that Bf52 may falsely judge as a self-righteous work when the work was prompted by the unction of the Holy Spirit.

fhansen · Mar 7, 2024

AbbaLove said:
Brightfame52 said:
I dont know what in the world you talking about.

It's becoming quite apparent that Bf52 doesn't believe that the "works" in James 2 are the result of the prompting by the Holy Spirit. Bf52s defintion of "works"(James 2) doesn't take into account the manifest "fruit" as obedience to the Lord being prompted by the Holy Spirit.

He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5)

Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God (John 3:5)

Is it possible Bf52 doesn't really understand "reform theology" with respect to "works" (fruit) in James 2 ...

14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

Is Bf52 disobedient when prompted by the Holy Spirit to manifest good fruit for fear of doing a good "work" as guided by the Holy Spirit?

Who is Bf52 to judge a born again new creation in Christ for manifesting good fruit that Bf52 may falsely judge as a self-righteous work when the work was prompted by the unction of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

And

Good points. And one point that was alluded to is that the the Spirit can be resisted. We don't justify ourselves, but when God justifies us we're not only forgiven and washed but renewed by the Holy Spirit, now created in Christ Jesus to do good works (Eph 2:10). But, again, we can resist God; we can resist grace, either when He first calls us or at any point later on. He remains faithful. Will we?

AbbaLove · Mar 7, 2024

fhansen said:
Good points. And one point that was alluded to is that the the Spirit can be resisted. We don't justify ourselves, but when God justifies us we're not only forgiven and washed but renewed by the Holy Spirit, now created in Christ Jesus to do good works (Eph 2:10). But, again, we can resist God; we can resist grace, either when He first calls us or at any point later on. He remains faithful. Will we?

That's a conundrum and why "reform theology" has more than one interpretation since the 1600s. Perhaps some new"converts" remained carnal being initially influenced more by peer pressure of other denominational Christians than primarily converted on account of the manifest work of the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5) followed by obedience and good fruit.

One person inviting Jesus into their heart can manifest evidence of a true conversion (Titus 3:5). Another person can invite Jesus into their heart based on emotional influence (peer pressure) from soul-winning Church goers. You will know who is who by their manifest (good) fruit (testimony).

fhansen · Mar 7, 2024

AbbaLove said:
That's a conundrum and why "reform theology" has more than one interpretation since the 1600s. Perhaps some new"converts" remained carnal being initially influenced more by peer pressure of other denominational Christians than primarily converted on account of the manifest work of the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5) followed by obedience and good fruit.

One person inviting Jesus into their heart can manifest evidence of a true conversion (Titus 3:5). Another person can invite Jesus into their heart based on emotional influence (peer pressure) from soul-winning Church goers. You will know who is who by their manifest (good) fruit (testimony).

It is a bit of a conundrum. Personally, I think anyone can "deconvert", so to speak, returning to the flesh. But it would certainly be a foolish move, to put it mildly.

AbbaLove · Mar 7, 2024

fhansen said:
It is a bit of a conundrum. Personally, I think anyone can "deconvert", so to speak, returning to the flesh. But it would certainly be a foolish move, to put it mildly.

That's also a perplexing conundrum that i don't find in the Bible. We'll never know if Judas would have deconverted if he had lived to be immersed in the baptism of the Holy Spirit during Shavuot (Pentecost) in the Upper Room.

I would prefer to believe that someone truly experiencing Titus 3:5 and John 3:5 (born again new creation in Christ) would never become lukewarn or lose their salvation.

Brightfame52 · Mar 7, 2024

biblelesson said:
Faith can’t be works because salvation is designed by God. To believe is not something we do, it is a type of faith we obtain from God. The type of faith that leads to salvation is not something man can posses, but something that’s given. Man is incapable of possessing the type of faith required for salvation, that would be like saying we can dictate our own salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV, 8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,” 9 “not of works, lest anyone should boast.”

No part of salvation can be credited to man, not even faith. There is a particular faith we must posses, ordained by God in Abraham; we must posses that of Abraham’s faith for righteousness to be imputed on us. If Abraham died many hundred years before Jesus was born, then how can we exercise Abraham’s faith? God is doing the work of heaven on us here on earth - the faith required to be saved comes from God by His Spirit - this is called predestination, Romans 8:29 KJV.

In the operation of Abraham’s faith, repentance even comes from God, “…if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;” 2 Timothy 2:25 KJV

So we can’t condition salvation on anything we do, salvation is conditioned on what God does in us by His Spirit, Philippians 2:13 KJV

We are saved by grace through faith! Faith comes by hearing - the word of God, Romans 10:17 KJV

You made some good points, so you should not have any problems with this statement:

If you condition salvation on something you DO its works.

fhansen · Mar 7, 2024

Brightfame52 said:
You made some good points, so you should not have any problems with this statement:

If you condition salvation on something you DO its works.

And yet if we don't DO anything, we won't be saved: James 2, Rom 2:7, Matt 5:20 and 19:17, etc. When you can figure out that seeming paradox you'll better understand the gospel-as well as the historic understanding of the church from the beginning.

Brightfame52 · Mar 7, 2024

fhansen said:
And yet if we don't DO anything, we won't be saved: James 2, Rom 2:7, Matt 5:20 and 19:17, etc. When you can figure out that seeming paradox you'll better understand the gospel-as well as the historic understanding of the church from the beginning.

If you condition salvation on your works, that a false salvation

fhansen · Mar 7, 2024

Brightfame52 said:
If you condition salvation on your works, that a false salvation

According to you, not the bible. In the bible, as well as the early church and ECFs, justification is a free gift that comes as we turn to God in faith, acknowledging Him as our God, a God who is infinitely trustworthy, merciful, true, and good and has only our best interests at heart, including eternal life. And if one is justified, then they are saved, by that fact.

But, since justification is not merely an imputed or declared status, but a real state of being, as new creations with new hearts, not only forgiven but now existing in a state of real righteousness by virtue of this right and just relationship with God, enabled to walk by the Spirit, overcoming sin, doing good, enabled to love God and neighbor because God's seed has been planted in us, we can also turn back to the flesh, we can compromise and forfeit our justified state, IOW, therefore losing salvation. And this is why salvation is said in the bible to be 1) a past event as in Eph 2:5: you were saved when you were justified, 2) a presently happening event as in Acts 2:47, 1 Pet 1:8-9, Phil 2:12: you are being saved as you work out your salvation, and 3) a future event as in Rom 5:9-10, Rom 13:11, 1 Cor 3:15, 1 Cor 5:5: you will be saved. Similarly redemption is spoken of as past, present, and future- as well as forgiveness which is contingent on our confessing if we engage in sin again (1 John 1:9) or on our forgiving others their sins against us as ours Father forgave us ours (Matt 6:15).

It's an ongoing process; we must pick up our cross and follow daily-and then the Just Judge will give His verdict at the end of our day-on how well we did with what all we were given. Again, we can't save ourselves, but your will is involved from the moment of justification to the end where your salvation is finally and fully realized, when you meet God "face to face".

zoidar · Mar 7, 2024

fhansen said:
It's an ongoing process; we must pick up our cross and follow daily-and then the Just Judge will give His verdict at the end of our day-on how well we did with what all we were given. Again, we can't save ourselves, but your will is involved from the moment of justification to the end where your salvation is finally and fully realized, when you meet God "face to face".

If this is true, can I ever know if I die today I'll be saved?

AbbaLove · Mar 7, 2024

Brightfame52 said:
If you condition salvation on your works, that a false salvation. and If you condition salvation on something you DO its works.

YOU should have also capitalized YOU in bold ... "If you condition salvation on something YOU DO it's works.
If you condition salvation on YOUR works, that a false salvation

fhansen said:
And yet if we don't DO anything, we won't be saved: James 2, Rom 2:7, Matt 5:20 and 19:17, etc. When you can figure out that seeming paradox you'll better understand the gospel-as well as the historic understanding of the church from the beginning.

It's like he is stuck in neutral not realizing he's preaching to the choir. Ones obedience (work/fruit) is not a waste of one's effort. Just don't let it go to your head by taking credit for the work when it's God that deserves the credit/glory not man.

The "work" James is talking about is not based on one's own self-righteousness (e.g. bragging), but rather "works" attributed to the leading and guiding of the Holy Spirit..

His posts are like a record needle stuck in a grove repeating itself over and over. He just doesn't get it or doesn't want to comprehend chapter 2 of James. Makes one wonder if some church doctrine has so misrepresented the Apostle James that he actually believes he shouldn't do any good work that glorifies God. Is his own spirit blind to James chapter 2 "works" so as to believe ...

If one's salvation (justification) is in any way due to "works" it's still a false salvation.
(Instead of grasping what James means by "works" he misrepresents James 2:14-26)

fhansen · Mar 7, 2024

zoidar said:
If this is true, can I ever know if I die today I'll be saved?

Leave it in the hands of God. We can have strong yet balanced assurance, based on His promises together evidence of fruit in our lives, but at the end of the day He, alone, knows with perfect certainty whose names are written in the Book of Life and whose are not.

biblelesson · Mar 7, 2024

Brightfame52 said:
You made some good points, so you should not have any problems with this statement:

If you condition salvation on something you DO its works.

To be honest, as I was writing my post, I kept thinking about what you’ve been saying. So, no I don’t have a problem with your statement! Actually your statement is true!

But you also said faith is works…. Our carnal faith, yes. God’s faith given, no!

zoidar · Mar 7, 2024

fhansen said:
Leave it in the hands of God. We can have strong yet balanced assurance, based on His promises and evidence of fruit in our lives, but at the end of the day He, alone, knows with perfect certainty whose names are written in the Book of Life and whose are not.

I don't want to derail the thread, but as much as what you say sound reasonable I wonder if we aren't supposed to know we are saved...

You don't need to answer.

fhansen · Mar 7, 2024

zoidar said:
I don't want to derail the thread, but as much as what you say sound reasonable I wonder if we aren't supposed to know we are saved...

You don't need to answer.

Lot's of people have wondered-and its a reasonable question. I'm reporting historic teachings, as well as my own understanding and belief. God is good. we are the wildcard and yet He's also merciful, of course, and trustworthy-and just. In any case, if we're not living as children of His should in the overall sense, then we should wonder- all the more deeply: about our status, about our relationship with Him.

Brightfame52 · Mar 8, 2024

fhansen said:
According to you, not the bible. In the bible, as well as the early church and ECFs, justification is a free gift that comes as we turn to God in faith, acknowledging Him as our God, a God who is infinitely trustworthy, merciful, true, and good and has only our best interests at heart, including eternal life. And if one is justified, then they are saved, by that fact.

But, since justification is not merely an imputed or declared status, but a real state of being, as new creations with new hearts, not only forgiven but now existing in a state of real righteousness by virtue of this right and just relationship with God, enabled to walk by the Spirit, overcoming sin, doing good, enabled to love God and neighbor because God's seed has been planted in us, we can also turn back to the flesh, we can compromise and forfeit our justified state, IOW, therefore losing salvation. And this is why salvation is said in the bible to be 1) a past event as in Eph 2:5: you were saved when you were justified, 2) a presently happening event as in Acts 2:47, 1 Pet 1:8-9, Phil 2:12: you are being saved as you work out your salvation, and 3) a future event as in Rom 5:9-10, Rom 13:11, 1 Cor 3:15, 1 Cor 5:5: you will be saved. Similarly redemption is spoken of as past, present, and future- as well as forgiveness which is contingent on our confessing if we engage in sin again (1 John 1:9) or on our forgiving others their sins against us as ours Father forgave us ours (Matt 6:15).

It's an ongoing process; we must pick up our cross and follow daily-and then the Just Judge will give His verdict at the end of our day-on how well we did with what all we were given. Again, we can't save ourselves, but your will is involved from the moment of justification to the end where your salvation is finally and fully realized, when you meet God "face to face".

If you condition salvation on your works, that a false salvation

Brightfame52 · Mar 8, 2024

AbbaLove said:
YOU should have also capitalized YOU in bold ... "If you condition salvation on something YOU DO it's works.
If you condition salvation on YOUR works, that a false salvation

It's like he is stuck in neutral not realizing he's preaching to the choir. Ones obedience (work/fruit) is not a waste of one's effort. Just don't let it go to your head by taking credit for the work when it's God that deserves the credit/glory not man.

The "work" James is talking about is not based on one's own self-righteousness (e.g. bragging), but rather "works" attributed to the leading and guiding of the Holy Spirit..

His posts are like a record needle stuck in a grove repeating itself over and over. He just doesn't get it or doesn't want to comprehend chapter 2 of James. Makes one wonder if some church doctrine has so misrepresented the Apostle James that he actually believes he shouldn't do any good work that glorifies God. Is his own spirit blind to James chapter 2 "works" so as to believe ...

If one's salvation (justification) is in any way due to "works" it's still a false salvation.
(Instead of grasping what James means by "works" he misrepresents James 2:14-26)

If you condition salvation on your works, that a false salvation, a works based salvation

Brightfame52 · Mar 8, 2024

biblelesson said:
To be honest, as I was writing my post, I kept thinking about what you’ve been saying. So, no I don’t have a problem with your statement! Actually your statement is true!

But you also said faith is works…. Our carnal faith, yes. God’s faith given, no!

If its God given Faith then one is regenerated, Faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22. If a person bases their Justification before Gods Law and Justice on their faith, act of believing, its works based Salvation.

AbbaLove · Mar 8, 2024

biblelesson said:
But you also said faith is works…. Our carnal faith, yes. God’s faith given, no!

That implies Bf52 (or you) misinterpret James use of "works" as a carnal faith instead of a God given Faith. Bf52
apparently believes that "works" is a poor translation when referring to the evidence of man's post-salvation Faith.

"God's Faith given" results in "works" (good fruit Gal. 5:22-23) being manifest with one's post-salvation Faith.

"Works" in James 2:14-26 refers to the evidence of "God's faith given" ... not carnal works or religious works.

fhansen · Mar 8, 2024

Brightfame52 said:
If you condition salvation on your works, that a false salvation

Ok, continue to focus on one part of Scripture while ignoring the rest. along with ignoring the historic teachings of Christianity, reason, et al. Any right works (not works of the law) come from and are motivated by God. And yet they are necessary. Because we can avoid them, we can fail to do His will, we can fail to love, to put it another way. Scripture conditions salvation on those works of grace.

In Matt 19 Jesus tells the rich young man that he must obey the commandments to enter life, In Matt 25 the wicked and lazy servant who refused to invest his talents was thrown outside, and in the same chapter those who did "for the least of these" entered the kingdom.

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:13

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

Faith leads to a changed heart and doing, or else it's worthless, un-salvific. Paul:
"...if I have a faith that can move mountains but have not love, I am nothing."
"The only thing that counts is faith working through love." Gal 5:6

It's God's work...in us. Augustine:
"Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing."
“If, then, your good merits are God’s gifts, God does not crown your merits as your merits, but as His own gifts.”

Is believing/faith a work ?

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