the Antichrist

Douggg

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But in case there is one so unfortunate as not to have read through the entire post yet...

2 Thessalonians 2: 6 and 7, "And NOW ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who NOW letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." (KJV)

In those two verses, Paul is not writing to the Thessalonians that the man of sin is about to be revealed. That the rapture must happen first, and the fact that the rapture has not happened yet, then the man of sin has not been revealed.

Rapture first - then afterward, the man of sin revealed. That is what Paul was writing to comfort the Thessalonians.

We have the same words of comfort today. Rapture first - then afterward, the man of sin revealed, triggering the beginning of the day of the Lord when God's wrath is poured out.
 
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In those two verses, Paul is not writing to the Thessalonians that the man of sin is about to be revealed. That the rapture must happen first, and the fact that the rapture has not happened yet, then the man of sin has not been revealed.

Rapture first - then afterward, the man of sin revealed. That is what Paul was writing to comfort the Thessalonians.

We have the same words of comfort today. Rapture first - then afterward, the man of sin revealed, triggering the beginning of the day of the Lord when God's wrath is poured out.

No Douggg, you have the order completely flipped backwards to what Paul wrote.

"For that day" (the day of the Lord gathering the saints) "shall not come, except there come a falling away FIRST, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition..." (2 Thess. 2:3).

The required order of events was FIRST to have the falling away (the "apostasia" rebellion against Rome) along with the man of sin being revealed (who at that present time in Paul's days was then being restrained), and THEN AFTER THAT the day of the Lord would come, with our gathering together unto Him. The Day of the Lord is synonymous with the time when the saints are gathered together unto Him. They occur jointly.

Do you also have a problem understanding what the word "FIRST" means?
 
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Douggg

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No Douggg, you have the order completely flipped backwards to what Paul wrote.

"For that day" (the day of the Lord gathering the saints) "shall not come, except there come a falling away FIRST, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition..." (2 Thess. 2:3).

The required order of events was FIRST to have the falling away (the "apostasia" rebellion against Rome) along with the man of sin being revealed (who at that present time in Paul's days was then being restrained), and THEN AFTER THAT the day of the Lord would come, with our gathering together unto Him. The Day of the Lord is synonymous with the time when the saints are gathered together unto Him. They occur jointly.

Do you also have a problem understanding what the word "FIRST" means?
Of the two things that take place before the day of the Lord, the great falling away is first, then the man of sin revealed.

The great falling away will be during the false messianic age of the Antichrist, when people will be saying peace and safety.

The rapture takes places before the man of sin is revealed as such, by the ToD act of 2Thessalonians2:4.





ratpure window11.jpg
 
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The rapture takes places before the man of sin is revealed as such, by the ToD act of 2Thessalonians2:4.
Maybe on your chart it does, but not according to Paul in 2 Thess. 2:4. Actually, there is no "transgression of desolation" mentioned at all anywhere in 2 Thess 2. You are inserting that into the text artificially.

And the "abomination of desolation" is already interpreted for us by Luke 21:20 as being "Jerusalem surrounded by armies". Those armies created desolations by their presence in the city of Jerusalem, starting in AD 66 with the Zealot armies aligned against the Roman army under Cestius Gallus. Menahem as the Man of Lawlessness Zealot leader in Jerusalem shared a part of creating that desolation of Jerusalem by his actions, but he was not the only one to do so.

But there is no "rapture" that was scheduled to take place before the Man of Lawlessness was revealed. You have that exactly backwards. The Man of Lawlessness would "FIRST" be revealed at the "apostasia" rebellion, and only after that had occurred would the Day of the Lord come with our gathering together unto Him.

Your charts are totally twisted out of all scriptural order...you need to scrap them and start again.
 
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Douggg

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And the "abomination of desolation" is already interpreted for us by Luke 21:20 as being "Jerusalem surrounded by armies".
The abomination of desolation is time of the end, not 70 AD.

Daniel 12:
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Actually, there is no "transgression of desolation" mentioned at all anywhere in 2 Thess 2. You are inserting that into the text artificially.
The transgression of desolation is an act. The abomination of desolation is a thing "set up".


But there is no "rapture" that was scheduled to take place before the Man of Lawlessness was revealed. You have that exactly backwards. The Man of Lawlessness would "FIRST" be revealed at the "apostasia" rebellion, and only after that had occurred would the Day of the Lord come with our gathering together unto Him.
You are totally wrong. The rapture is the gathering unto Jesus. The day of the Lord is when the wrath of God will be poured out, triggered by the man of sin committing the ToD act of 2Thessalonains2:4.

The transgression of desolation is in Daniel 8:12-13, time of the end Daniel 8:17.

Your charts are totally twisted out of all scriptural order...you need to scrap them and start again.
My charts are correct. Maybe you should try your hand at making similar charts according to your view.
 
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One God and Father of All

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The kingdom was given to Christ on His resurrection-day ascension to the Father. He became the Great High Priest King of kings after the superior order of Melchizedek on that morning. This is why Christ could say to the disciples in Matthew 28:18, (even before He had ascended finally in Acts 1), "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth..." Christ did not have to wait for His return to be given that kingdom.

Peter's speech to the crown on Pentecost agreed with Christ Jesus having already been enthroned at the right hand of God, being made both Lord and Christ (Acts 2:29-36).

Douggg, I am not being evasive, I am posting in the middle of a heavy work schedule deadline, so I am presuming that no one needs yet another listing of this verse. But in case there is one so unfortunate as not to have read through the entire post yet...

2 Thessalonians 2: 6 and 7, "And NOW ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who NOW letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." (KJV)

And in case someone is stumped by the antique word "let", here it is in the ESV: "And you know what is restraining him NOW so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who NOW restrains it will do so until he is out of the way."

Notice in this ESV translation, that the"HIM" that was being restrained is the very same as the "IT" which is being restrained. This "IT" was Zealotry that was being held in check by the high priesthood, as well as being "HE", the specific Zealot leader named Menahem.

Likewise, the "WHAT" that was doing the restraining (the high priesthood institution) is also the same as the "HE" that is doing the restraining (one particular high priest named Ananias).

Paul was going to great efforts to avoid naming the high priesthood or its members in this Thessalonians letter, since the high priesthood utterly hated Paul and his ministry. The high priests regarded Paul as a traitor who had switched to the enemy's side. If this Thessalonians letter had fallen into the wrong hands, Paul could have created more persecution for his fellow believers if he had been specific in naming this restrainer. God was going to get rid of the high priesthood system soon enough.
I’m a futurist. I believe the last week of Daniel is yet to be fulfilled.
 
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One God and Father of All

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That text above is the “mystery of iniquity“ that Paul says was already at work in his day.

Here it is in Paul’s day:

John 12:37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, 38that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:

“Lord, who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”
39Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:

40He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”


And here it is at Christ’s second coming:

2 Thess 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
 
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I’m a futurist. I believe the last week of Daniel is yet to be fulfilled.
This is a different subject than the Antichrist. That total of 490 years dealing with Daniel's people began with the decree in 454 BC in the 20th year of Artaxerxes's reign, and concluded in AD 37 with Paul's vision in Jerusalem's temple when God commanded him to depart from Jerusalem and go to the Gentiles. There is no "gap" in this prophecy that stretches it beyond a total of 490 years, start to finish. A "gap" of extended additional years inserted in between is yet another invention in order to force-fit one's own contrived interpretation into the scripture text. It turns the 490 years time limit into something absolutely meaningless.
 
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The abomination of desolation is time of the end, not 70 AD.
That is exactly why Peter wrote in 1 Peter 4:7 around the year AD 65 that "the end of all things is at hand", or presently in place in his own days.

The transgression of desolation is an act. The abomination of desolation is a thing "set up".
The abomination of desolation being "Jerusalem surrounded by armies" according to Luke 21:20 was a standing army set up around Jerusalem. The depredations committed by that standing army would be that army's acts of transgression that created desolation. Both Zealot armies and the Roman armies participated in this during the AD 66-70 years.

You are totally wrong. The rapture is the gathering unto Jesus. The day of the Lord is when the wrath of God will be poured out, triggered by the man of sin committing the ToD act of 2Thessalonains2:4.

The transgression of desolation is in Daniel 8:12-13, time of the end Daniel 8:17.
No, those Daniel 8 references were still speaking prophetically of the Greek kingdom's activities that would be performed by Antiochus Epiphanes. "Arms stood on his part" back then also, when Antiochus E. with his army came against Jerusalem.

As for the rapture's gathering of the saints unto Jesus, you are mistaken in thinking that God could not be pouring out His wrath on the wicked on the same occasion when Christ is gathering the resurrected saints to Himself. God is capable of multi-tasking, you know. Thessalonians 1:8 -10 mentions both activities going on, with Jesus "in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God". These were to be destroyed at the same time when the Lord would come "to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe" in that day.

My charts are correct. Maybe you should try your hand at making similar charts according to your view.
There is a lot of time invested in creating your charts, I'm sure. And I've no doubt you are convinced that they are correct. I have often considered making some visual timelines myself that track eschatological events, but honestly, Christ never adopted this method of teaching His disciples. It was simply oral instruction and parables, and later on, the aid of the Holy Spirit bringing all things to their remembrance.

Paul just used his writings and personal instruction to pass on information to the churches. If it takes a chart to keep things straight, then in all likelihood, the prophecies have been turned into something more complicated than they were intended to be as originally given. There is no need to complicate the simple.

And the simple fact is that the two individuals called the Antichrist / Man of Lawlessness and his restrainer were both alive in Paul's days, according to 2 Thess. 2:6 & 7. This isn't rocket science.
 
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One God and Father of All

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This is a different subject than the Antichrist. That total of 490 years dealing with Daniel's people began with the decree in 454 BC in the 20th year of Artaxerxes's reign, and concluded in AD 37 with Paul's vision in Jerusalem's temple when God commanded him to depart from Jerusalem and go to the Gentiles. There is no "gap" in this prophecy that stretches it beyond a total of 490 years, start to finish. A "gap" of extended additional years inserted in between is yet another invention in order to force-fit one's own contrived interpretation into the scripture text. It turns the 490 years time limit into something absolutely meaningless.
Psalm 2:7 “I will declare the [g]decree:
The Lord has said to Me,
‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
8Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
9You shall [h]break them with a rod of iron;
You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’ ”

Christ is not yet ruling the nations which are his inheritance, Nor has he broke them with a rod of iron. Or dashed them to pieces.
 
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Fisherking

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The Antichrist will be the another, John 5:43, who will be anointed the King of Israel, the king of the Jews, as the Jews will think he is their long awaited messiah.
Once again Doug, you get it all wrong, John 5:43 was FULFILLED because Jesus was speaking SPECIFICALLY to the Scribes & Pharisees (Jewish leaders of his time). Why not go look and read the whole passage. "Ye" (as in YOU, Pharisees whom he was talking to) will not receive me, be "YOU" will receive another who comes in his own name. (Fulfilled in 67-70 AD) The Pharisees wanted Jesus to lead them in war, that is what Judas promised them, they were learned men, they knew (like us) Rome was the Fourth Beast so naturally they thought the Messiah would save them as Rome attacked. So, they put forth men who came in their own name, (Jesus' name was not Jesus Christ, that just identifies him as the Messiah) and thus they fulfilled this prophecy 2000 some odd years ago.

You clearly are just down a rabbit hole here. The Agreement/Covenant is merely Israel joining the E.U.
 
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Fisherking

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Because for the Jews to embrace the person, thinking he is their messiah, his must be a Jew - someone perceived to be descended from King David.
That's the problem Doug, when you go down one rabbit hole, it creates a false notion elsewhere, you are correct, the Jews would never accept a Gentile as their king, but they chose 2 or 3 Jewish people 2000 years ago, Agreement is NOT about accepting a Messiah, its about Israel entering an Agreement and that Agreement will be them joining the E.U. The difference between you and I is I can prove my poinrs via scripture, you just throw something out there.

Dan. 8:9 tells us the A.C. has to be born in Greece.

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

Since we know the Little Horn/A.C. conquers Israel the WAXES GREAT TOWARDS = Conquers.

So, now we need to understand Dan. 11 gives all the Greek Kings for a reason. Here in Dan. 8:9 we see in this Four General battle (the 6 Syrian Wars with one yet to come) Field that at the very end the Little Horn conquers TOWARDS the East (Turkey/Seleucus) TOWARDS the South (Egypt/Ptolemy) and TOWARDS Israel. And we can see this actual battle in Dan. 11:40-43, he goes through COUNTRIES to get at Israel and defeats MANY COUNTIES & Israel, then conquers all of North Africa. He is not allowed to conquer Edom, Moab or Ammon (Central & Southern Jordan where Israel flees unto).

Now, seeing as this is a Four General Tussle that gives is a pretty good sense of DIRECTION, the four winds so to speak. And thus if this man conquers towards the East, South & Israel where does he have to conquer from? The Northwest Corridor (Cassander/Greece).

download (21).jpg


So, the map tells it all, this "Little Horn" can only come out of Greece in the four general inter kingdom battle, the 7th (divine completion) Syrian War. Now how does the Little Horn of Dan. 7:7-8 fit in? Well, where is Greece at? In the E.U. so the exact same Little Horn that MUST be born in Greece will also arise amidst the 10 (completion kings that arise from the Fourth Beasts Head (E.U. in total). So, he's the E.U. President, who has to also be a Greek born king. Greece is in the E.U. Once he conquers COUNTRIES to get at Israel (Turkey, Lebanon, Syria. Jordan and all of North Africa guess what Papa (Rome) has a son (E.U.) who are identical twins on a map.

Papa Rome covered every square inch of the Mediterranean Sea Coastline
Roman_Empire_Trajan_117AD (12).png


The E.U. after she conquers the land spoken about in Dan. 11:40-43 will look like Old Rome on a map
EU_European_Neighbourhood_Policy_states.svg (7).png

So, he conquers East (Turkey) and COUNTRIES to get at Israel AND all of North Africa.

Now, in Daniel it is stated that the 3rd Beast will Conquer the whole earth (being spoken about) which is of course referring to the region of the first 6 heads only. So, since Greece only conquered about 1/3 of the Mediterranean Sea Coastline, the Dan. 2 prophecy is fulfilled by this end time Little Horn who is a Greek born king who comes to power in the E.U. and by the way, he will have an Assyrian bloodline also.

He will not, nor can he be a Jew. The False Prophet is a Jew, just like Antiochus Epiphanes and Jason. The king was a Gentile and his sidekick was a Jew.
 
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Christ is not yet ruling the nations which are his inheritance, Nor has he broke them with a rod of iron. Or dashed them to pieces.

The contradiction to this is found in Revelation 12:5 in a translation other than the KJV. "And she brought forth a male child, who is ABOUT TO rule all the nations with a rod of iron, and caught away was her child unto God and His throne." (YLT). This was written from the time perspective in which Revelation was written by John. It also speaks concerning the resurrected Christ Jesus having ascended to God and His throne, showing that Christ's rule on that throne had commenced at that point of Christ's ascension. As Peter also affirmed in Acts 2 on the day of Pentecost that God had made Jesus both Lord and Christ by giving Him the throne of His father David.

As for the nations being dashed to pieces, Daniel 2's image that was struck by Christ, the stone cut without hands, was broken to pieces with one blow, and the dust all those world empires blew away on the wind. That blow on the feet of the image was given in AD 70, after which time the stone kingdom has continued to grow into a mountain as promised, and will eventually fill the whole world. Christ claimed in Matthew 28:18 that all power in heaven and earth had been given to Him by then, and I believe it.
 
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One God and Father of All

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The contradiction to this is found in Revelation 12:5 in a translation other than the KJV. "And she brought forth a male child, who is ABOUT TO rule all the nations with a rod of iron, and caught away was her child unto God and His throne." (YLT). This was written from the time perspective in which Revelation was written by John. It also speaks concerning the resurrected Christ Jesus having ascended to God and His throne, showing that Christ's rule on that throne had commenced at that point of Christ's ascension. As Peter also affirmed in Acts 2 on the day of Pentecost that God had made Jesus both Lord and Christ by giving Him the throne of His father David.

As for the nations being dashed to pieces, Daniel 2's image that was struck by Christ, the stone cut without hands, was broken to pieces with one blow, and the dust all those world empires blew away on the wind. That blow on the feet of the image was given in AD 70, after which time the stone kingdom has continued to grow into a mountain as promised, and will eventually fill the whole world. Christ claimed in Matthew 28:18 that all power in heaven and earth had been given to Him by then, and I believe it.
If John is speaking of something that has already occurred it’s not prophecy.
A futuristic view sees the child becoming king in the restored kingdom of God on earth. A mortal king like David who was king and sat on the throne of God.
 
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If John is speaking of something that has already occurred it’s not prophecy.
Not all prophecy is the foretelling of future events. John's instruction in Revelation 1:19 was to write down "the things thou hast seen" (PAST events for John), "the things that are" (things PRESENTLY going on in John's days), "and the things that are about to be hereafter" (things in John's IMMEDIATE FUTURE).

John wrote in Revelation concerning many past events of history, both his recent past and the ancient past.
A futuristic view sees the child becoming king in the restored kingdom of God on earth. A mortal king like David who was king and sat on the throne of God.
There is already a king of glorified, resurrected flesh and bones sitting in heaven as our Great High Priest King of kings. Just as Psalms 2 predicted for Christ resurrection day, God said at that time "I have set my KING upon my holy hill of Zion". We know that this resurrection day was the timing for Christ becoming King of kings because Paul confirms that the Psalms 2 prediction about Christ was fulfilled on the day He was raised from the dead. (Acts 13: 33).

Also, the Daniel 7:13 vision of the resurrected Christ's ascension to heaven showed the Ancient of Days giving this Son of Man dominion, and glory, and a KINGDOM that would last forever. When Christ returned, He would return while still IN that kingdom (Matthew 16:28).

Also, the parable in Luke 19:12-27 of the nobleman and his stewards tells us the same. The parable gave the illustration of a certain nobleman (Christ Jesus) going away into a far country (heaven) "to receive for Himself A KINGDOM, and to return." Kingdom received first, then the return. The servants were told to "occupy till I come". Then Luke 19:15 says, "And it came to pass, that when he was returned, HAVING RECEIVED THE KINGDOM", he demanded an accounting of the servants' performance.

This kingdom of the nobleman was given to him when He was in that "far country". When He returned, he had already received the kingdom before then, and he demanded the death of those who had refused to acknowledge His kingship over them while He had been in that far country.
 
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By reading the text one might think that the man of sin was already existing but was being restrained by “he”(?).

The way I understand it, is that the man of sin did not yet exist, but only the “he” who restrains him from being revealed.

Someone would have to be moved out of the way before the man of sin could be revealed. The language does not require the man of sin to have already be existing. Only the mystery of lawlessness was existing, and the one who restrains the man of sin to then appear.
Satan has existed since the 4th day of creation. Appearing as a man representing lawlessness, is obviously not as public nor widely accepted, even to this day. If Satan presented himself to the world as actually existing, then many would have to accept other points of God's Word without question. But Satan, even hiding in the shadows, is limited as to what he can do to humanity to even keep them deceived.

He is certainly not bound, but he is also not revealed either. The Second Coming will reveal all that we are currently spiritually blind to. The Holy Spirit will also be removed from working in people's hearts and minds which is holding Satan in check.

Also at the Second Coming, no one will have an excuse to not believe that God exists. All on earth will see God sitting on the GWT.
 
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One God and Father of All

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Not all prophecy is the foretelling of future events. John's instruction in Revelation 1:19 was to write down "the things thou hast seen" (PAST events for John), "the things that are" (things PRESENTLY going on in John's days), "and the things that are about to be hereafter" (things in John's IMMEDIATE FUTURE).

John wrote in Revelation concerning many past events of history,
John was instructed to write what he was shown, after he saw it. Which would be the things he was shown prior to verse 19. The book is all prophecy, and all prophecy speaks of future events and things.

if you think prophecy can be of past events I say you are incorrect. Perhaps you might want to consider that.

There was no war in God’s heaven before creation, or anytime after, or to come.

the definition of prophecy: Prediction
 
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Satan has existed since the 4th day of creation. Appearing as a man representing lawlessness, is obviously not as public nor widely accepted
Existed since the 4th day of creation?

The man of sin is a man who is the adversary of what is true.
 
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Existed since the 4th day of creation?

The man of sin is a man who is the adversary of what is true.
Satan is an angel, who can appear as a man while on the earth. Satan is also a being who never dies nor ages, but has been at work since before the little horn known as Antiochus Epiphanes. Satan was already at work behind the scenes of the Abomination of Desolation set up by Antiochus Epiphanes. Satan was at work behind the kingdom of Greece, the kingdom of Rome, and continued on with the ten toes all the way up to the Reformation. Satan is behind who we wrestle against per Paul in: Ephesians 6:12

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

Satan is and has been at work always behind Daniel's image of chapter 2. The dragon in Revelation 12 represents the image of Daniel 2. The beast out of the sea of humanity is the same as the image in Daniel 2. And this beast is explained in Revelation 17 as the scarlet colored beast. All the human empires since Babylon.

So Satan is still at work today in every human government as long as humans give in to Satan's deceptions. It is the Holy Spirit at work restraining Satan. The Holy Spirit works through humans willing to stand up against Satan's constant attacks against the Word of God.
 
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