Frozen embryos are ‘children,’ Alabama Supreme Court rules in couples’ wrongful death suits

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Derf

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Again, the refusal to answer the question tells us all we need to know. It's an answer in itself.

Why don't some of you guys understand that..?
Because it's a false dichotomy. I'll try it on you. Your house is burning down, and you only have time to save one of your two children, twins that are 1 year old. Which one do you save?
 
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o_mlly

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So, when is does a child under this definition not count as a child?
Are you familiar with the most derided Supreme Court decision in the U.S.? This disagreement on the humanity of the unborn rings familiar.

In 1857 the Court's ruling in Dred Scott was that people of African descent "are not included, and were not intended to be included, under the word 'citizens' in the Constitution, and can therefore claim none of the rights and privileges which that instrument provides for and secures to citizens of the United States".

In 1865, the Fourteenth Amendment reversed the infamous Dred Scott decision. It took eight years and a civil war to come to the truth on the humanity of all God's children. We are on our way. Thank you, citizens of Alabama!

In the interim, godless people need not come to Alabama and, hopefully, to other states soon.
 
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Hans Blaster

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In 1857 the Court's ruling in Dred Scott was that people of African descent "are not included, and were not intended to be included, under the word 'citizens' in the Constitution, and can therefore claim none of the rights and privileges which that instrument provides for and secures to citizens of the United States".

In 1865, the Fourteenth Amendment reversed the infamous Dred Scott decision. It took eight years and a civil war to come to the truth on the humanity of all God's children. We are on our way. Thank you, citizens of Alabama!

The people of Alabama didn't work to fix Dred Scott, the worked to uphold it. Alabama engaged in rebellion to do so.
 
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Hans Blaster

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And your point is?

My point is that you don't seem to realize what a drag on progress Alabama is and has been.

(Even in your hackneyed "slavery :: abortion" analogy, you still manged to mangle it by referencing Dred Scot/Civil War/emancipation without acknowledging that Alabama was on the wrong side. [It was the wrong side, right?]
 
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JSRG

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So, when is does a child under this definition not count as a child?
I'm not familiar with every law in Alabama. But my point is that a word meaning one thing in one law doesn't mean it means the same thing in every other law.
 
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truthpls

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Nobody requires you to accept anything as good. However, the procedure is legal as a factual matter.
So is murder and a lot of things. Man tinkers, and does so in wicked ways much of the time. The process God set up for making new people is intact. Tinkering with it does not create new people. It may delay their arrival in some cases, if, for example, an embryo was frozen. But it is still God that brings life.
 
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truthpls

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My point is that you don't seem to realize what a drag on progress Alabama is and has been.
One person may call mass murder progress, for example, and another might call it something else. For Christians, we know how things progress and end. People standing for good and what is right do not stop progress. They get on the right side of it.
 
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o_mlly

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Even in your hackneyed "slavery :: abortion" analogy, you still manged to mangle it by referencing Dred Scot/Civil War/emancipation without acknowledging that Alabama was on the wrong side. [It was the wrong side, right?
First, a "mangled" analogy is one that mutilates the original by cutting from it, not adding to it. Second, if you know of any Alabamians who voted to secede in 1861 who are still alive and on the wrong side of this issue, let me know.

Oh, yes. And also look up "hackneyed" as it does not mean what you apparently think it means.
 
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Desk trauma

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In the interim, godless people need not come to Alabama and, hopefully, to other states soon.
It was a ruling about embryos, not preventing people from travel based on religion.
 
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Desk trauma

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Did you read the ruling -- it's supporting references to AL case law and the state's constitution?
It doesn’t include a prohibition on “godless” people traveling to Alabama.
 
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Belk

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Because it's a false dichotomy. I'll try it on you. Your house is burning down, and you only have time to save one of your two children, twins that are 1 year old. Which one do you save?

How is that a false dichotomy? In the hypothetical it is clearly stated there are only two possible options. For this to be a false dichotomy a third option needs to exist, but that then goes outside the bounds of the hypothetical and completely ignores the point being addressed.
 
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essentialsaltes

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If they'd left it there, it might not have had such a whiff of violating church-state separation, but the chief justice's special concurrence wanders off to quote Aquinas, Calvin, van Mastricht, and the Bible (KJV).

In summary, the theologically based view of the sanctity of life adopted by the People of Alabama [the state constitution literally has a "Sanctity of Life" amendment added in 2018] encompasses the following: (1) God made every person in His image; (2) each person therefore has a value that far exceeds the ability of human beings to calculate; and (3) human life cannot be wrongfully destroyed without incurring the wrath of a holy God, who views the destruction of His image as an affront to Himself.

The Alabama Chief Justice Who Invoked God in Deciding Embryo Case

His theological digressions showed why he has long been revered by conservative legal groups and anti-abortion activists, and also why he has inspired apprehension among critics who regard him as guided more by religious doctrine than the law.

Since he was first elected to the nine-member court in 2004, and in his legal career before it, he has shown no reticence about expressing how his Christian beliefs have profoundly shaped his understanding of the law and his approach to it as a lawyer and judge.

Before joining the court, Parker was the founding executive director of the Alabama Family Alliance, a conservative advocacy group now called the Alabama Policy Institute.

In his concurring opinion, Parker reached further back [than the 1872 law], citing Genesis: “The principle itself — that human life is fundamentally distinct from other forms of life and cannot be taken intentionally without justification — has deep roots that reach back to the creation of man ‘in the image of God.’”

It underscored the philosophy that has guided him through two decades on the court.

“When judges don’t rule in the fear of the Lord, everything’s falling apart,” he once wrote, citing the Book of Psalms, according to the ProPublica investigation. “The whole world is coming unglued.”
 
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Bradskii

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Your problem here is not so much your atheism...
Then why bring it up. It's inconsequential to any argument I use.
...but your lurch to emotionalism as a response to a rational question. Children do that sort of thing quite often.
You're confusing what you think is my emotionalism with what the mother exhibits when she considers the difference between a frozen embryo and a baby. You are still determined to ignore the basic fact that everyone treats them completely differently. Even if, in your case, you are determined to deny it. Note the recent refusal to answer the hypothetical about which should be saved if it could only be one or the other.

Notwithstanding that the par for the course is exactly what you are accusing me of: 'But you can't have an abortion, it's a tiny person!'
Judge to the accused: "What do you have to say in your defense?"
Accused to the judge: "Your honor, I didn't feel that the person I murdered was a human being."
What a woman feels about early pregnancies and how she considers them compared go full term pregnancy is not the defence. Not that it needs to be defended. The reason she would have an early abortion versus a very late one is because she considers what she is carrying in each case to be completely different. What she feels is simply an indication of that. But you'll ignore that fact even though we all know it to be true.

Again, I suggest you try 'We know there's a difference, but...' as opposed to 'There is no difference, so...'
I put to you essentially the same question that another professed atheist unartfully tried to dodge:
So, exactly when should a mother (and father) begin to love their child?​
When should they? What a very odd thing to ask.

My wife and I spent a couple of hours on our wedding day thinking of names for the children we hoped to have. We loved the idea of having them. When she eventually became pregnant - oops, sorry...when she was with child, we loved the thought that we were going to have kids. And our attachment to, our love for that prospective child grew as the eventual pregnancy progressed. I know that as a fact because years later she had a miscarriage. It was upsetting. But nothing in comparison to what we would have felt had she lost the baby a week before giving birth.

But hey. Ignore that answer. It doesn't fit with what you believe.
 
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Bradskii

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Absolutely rich coming from the side of "wHaT iS a WoMaN?" Do we have to start asking them what is a child now?
What's with ThE mIXturE of capitals? I've never understood that.

Mm. Let me think. Well, a woman is a female of the species Homo sapien and is determined, generally, by having two X chromosomes, a vagina and a uterus. And I say generally because there are conditions where none of those might be applicable. And a child is (legally) a member of the aforementioned species between birth and the legal age of majority. Personally I'd say between birth and puberty myself.

I hope that helps.
 
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Bradskii

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Because it's a false dichotomy. I'll try it on you. Your house is burning down, and you only have time to save one of your two children, twins that are 1 year old. Which one do you save?
It's not a false dichotomy. I'm not sure you know what that means. It's a simple hypothetical. And you've already indicated your answer by avoiding the question. Thanks for that.
 
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