Is it just for the unsaved to suffer in hell forever?

Is it just, morally right, or fair for One who has done no wrong to bear the iniquities of all His enemies simply to reconcile them with the God they have rejected?

JohnClay said:

Also is it still just if the suffering is unbearable?

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There are different views on what the final destiny will be for those who reject God. Its spans from optimistic to detrimental. In the end, no one really knows as scripture is unclear. Blessings.

JohnClay said:

Hi I meant would it be just if hell hypothetically involved eternal suffering?

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If it is not just then it would be vengeance.

JohnClay said:

Also is it still just if the suffering is unbearable?

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So then the case of a 14 year old who dies without accepting Christ -- getting infinite torture vs Hitler getting infinite torture?

Is that the question?

JohnClay said:

Hi I meant would it be just if hell hypothetically involved eternal suffering?

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Lets read Luke 12 and see if the Bible really predicts "infinite torture for all" in the case of the lost --

Luke 12:
44 Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 But if that slave says in his heart, ‘My master will take a long time to come,’ and he begins to beat the other slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; 46 then the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect, and at an hour that he does not know, and will cut him in two, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47 And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accordance with his will, will receive many blows, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed acts deserving of a beating, will receive only a few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

What do you find there? Which way does it go?

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Let's see if Matt 18 says the wicked get an infinite debt which can never be paid - and infinite price to pay, always unpaid never paid up.

Matt 18

31 So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their master all that had happened. 32 Then summoning him, his master *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his master, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he would repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Does the text say the debt is infinite?
Does it say it can never be fully paid?
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Let's read Matt 10:28 and see if it says that the wicked are PRESERVED soul and body to suffer infinite torture for all of time.

Matt 10:28
28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Did you find "preserve both body and soul in fiery hell forever"? Did you find "eternal life in fiery hell" in that statement?
Can you find even one text that says the wicked are immortal, have eternal life etc??


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Let's consider the case of the worse offender - Satan himself - the covering cherub, created sinless as Lucifer - is he reduced to ashes after some time -- does he "cease to be forever" according to the prediction of Ezek 28??

Ezek 28:
“You had the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
Was in you.
On the day that you were created
They were prepared.
14 You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, you covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Your heart was haughty because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I threw you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 By the multitude of your wrongdoings,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”


Notice how future events are described as in the past in the eyes of God - just as in Is 53 in the case of the suffering servant - Christ and his sacrifice on the cross seen as past-tense in Isaiah 53.

So what end did you see in Ezek 28 for the perfect and holy covering cherub - who then fell and became wicked - in Ezek 28?

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Does the Bible describe a similar conclusion for all the wicked in Mal 4 as the case was described for Satan in Ezek 28?

Mal 4:
“For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the Lord of armies, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branches. 2 But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and frolic like calves from the stall. 3 And you will crush the wicked underfoot, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I am preparing,” says the Lord of armies.

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Does John 3:16 declare "everlasting life" for both the saints and the wicked?

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.

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Does 1 John 3:15 say that the wicked have eternal life ?

1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers and sisters. The one who does not love remains in death. 15 Everyone who hates his brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life remaining in him.

What do you find there

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Does Gen 3 say that those who are fallen , who are lost and in need of the gospel "live forever"? Or does it say that without literal access to the real tree of life - the wicked do not "live forever"?

Gen 3:22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might reach out with his hand, and take fruit also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the Garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the Garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

JohnClay said:

@BobRyan
Hi my question is not whether the Bible says if there is eternal torment for the unsaved but whether that would be just and fair for all of the unsaved.

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ok -- but if we agree that infinite torture for a 14 year old is not "fair" - we still need to know if the Bible actually says such a thing.

JohnClay said:

Ok I was expecting you to say that if God did it then it must be 100% moral since God defines what is moral.

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God could choose to be an unjust , unfair, unloving God who is arbitrary ... But the Bible tells us that He did not choose that path.
God says "taste and SEE that the Lord is good" Ps 34:8 -- not "whatever I say is right no matter how unjust and bad it is".

Rom 2:11 For there is no partiality with God.

Rev 15:
3 And they *sang the song of Moses, the bond-servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying,
“Great and marvelous are Your works,
Lord God, the Almighty;
Righteous (Just) and true are Your ways,
King of the nations!
4 Who will not fear You, Lord, and glorify Your name?
For You alone are holy;
For all the nations will come and worship before You,
For Your righteous acts have been revealed.”

God is known by His deeds.

Job 1 - Satan challenges God - when God declares Job to be a righteous man -- Satan says that if he torments Job - then Job will curse God.

God says that Satan should have his day in court - should test his theory.

Job 2-- Job has proven faithful so Satan accuses God again saying that more torment on Job - causing him pain suffering, illness will make him change his mind and curse God.

God's response is "fine - you have a chance to see if you are right"

And yet - once again - the new birth, the gospel, the new creation in Job proves that Satan lied again.

This is very different from
"Satan - I am God - I kicked you out of heaven already - why do I even listen to you ..zaaaaap"

The future is complicated.

The parable of the talents (Matthew 25) seems to describe our future here in the West - the rich lands. The harvests (nuclear wars) come along and take out our hapless servant, aka the lazy servant. Subsequently, he is tossed into hell because he was too lazy to get out of the way.

It turns out that hell looks a lot like a fatal dose of radiation: There will be lots of pain, gnashing of teeth due to the intense pain, thirst, general torment. Death comes in 3 days to 3 weeks depending on dosage, which seems like forever. No one will be there to care for you after a nuclear war.

What radiation does to the human body | HBO's Chernobyl - YouTube

JohnClay said:

Also is it still just if the suffering is unbearable?

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Only God can answer that...

JohnClay said:

@BobRyan
On the topic of God always being 100% moral what about this passage:
Deuteronomy 20:16-18

If it is moral to kill everything that breathes including animals and babies then maybe it is moral to send most people to hell forever... ?

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"Sending to hell" is a Jewish concept developed from the Jewish custom of speaking in God's absolute sovereignty.

God created free will or else we are all robots. Free will signifies the ability to choose to oppose God. If it's a fair chance on "oppose God and obey God", then mathematically some will choose to oppose God and some will choose to obey. It more or less resembles the "head or tail" probability leading to the "half-half" mathematical outcome in the long run.

God's goal is to build an eternity we call Heaven for the three parties, which is God, angels and humans, to live in harmony eternally and satisfactorily. The requirement from God's end is that God is completely sin-incompatible. He thus gave out the promise that if angels/humans can pass a pre-defined Final Judgment on an open standard, God will bear with them in eternity no matter what.

Just as prophesied in Genesis, under the influence from the much more intelligent fallen anges (crafty snake in Eden), we humans have no hope to pass a Final Judgment of Law. God shall have destroyed us all with a flood in Noah's days, as enforced by Law for the reason that the very purpose of "bringing humans to Heaven" is defeated. The purpose of the very existence of planet earth is thus defeated, it becomes a wilderness with no soul savable but only full of God-hated sins.

However through Jesus' self-sacrifice at some point of humanity, it makes possible that humans are no longer judged by Law but a series of covenants as the new open standard for their Final Judgment. Humans under the influence of angels are not savable, but now with Jesus they are savable again. While God also promised Noah that He will bear with the unbearable human sins until the coming of the Final Judgment but not beyond that point. After the Final Judgment God is free, He needs to seek for His own happiness too. He no longer works and lives by bearing with the sins on earth, which is like a "pool of poo". God is now working in such a "pool of poo".

What left is what would happen to the so-called dead who failed to pass the Final Judgment. They have to leave God. Now what will a world be without God. In a realm without God the most evil and the most powerful will naturally and eventually rule. This happens to be Satan. Satan is the god of a realm without the existence of God's influence. Even on earth which is not lying inside God's realm ever since Adam being kicked out of Eden, Satan is referred as the "god of this world", as Satan has turned this world into a wilderness.

Isaiah 14:17
the man who made the world a wilderness, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?

On the other hand, our universe is not the true nature, it's God-made instead. The true nature is filled with energy and fire, which Satan doesn't have the ability to counter. Satan is the god of a realm without God, while he lacks the ability to maintain his realm without being swallowed by the true nature. This is rather a prophecy.

God would withdraw His knowledge about such a sinful realm being ruled by Satan. As God is sin-incompatible and refuses to even know what could possibly happen to such a realm. God is the God of the living but not the God of the dead. Law demands God to make a self-sacrifice in order to save the living. Law could demand a much larger sacrifice from God if it's to "set free" Satan and whatever in his realm. This simply means Jesus may have to be nailed multiple times and bear with human insults for million years. "God is the God of living" in this case could mean that God is only willing to make a sacrifice for the living. God's sacrifice is unconditional in a sense that He demands none from humans in return.

Being nailed as human is the suffering we humans can understand. Being insulted as a God for thousands of years is the suffereing we humans may not understand at all. For that matter God never actually left His true name to humans. To the Jews God's name is "I am who I am". Insulting the Holy Spirit is an unforgivable sin. For the same reason insulting God the Son should also be unforgivable. It's forgivable simply because Jesus chooses to suffer this way day one since He's cruxified till now. That's why after the Final Judgment Jesus will have a new name. His name with disgrace will no longer be used.

Revelation 3:12
The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.

"Throwing to the Lake of Fire" is thus an active sense spoken in terms of God's sovereignty, which has been developed into a Jewish concept for later humans to know about.

"God kills everything" is a curse brought to earth by Adam's sin. God's morality is based on a "calcuation of souls". If He didn't kill the Canaanites, the message of salvation wouldn't be able to reach today's world through the Jews. It's actually about a spiritual war between Satan and God. Through the action of free will, Satan "controls" the Canaates in terms of their culture and religion (of children sacrifice). Satan's plot is to let the Canaanites outnumber the Jews and eradicate them in the long run. Satan is also specialized in controlling human societies by means of their culture and religion, just as he did to the Canaanites. While the Jews are not a reliable people back then. God has to keep a whole generation of Jews, including Moses himself in the wilderness. The only window for God to defeat Satan through the Jews is by means of Joshua's generation. The Jews are not always loyal to God that reliably back then.

God ultimately says that the good will be saved and the evil condemned ( John 5:22-30). A Christian has salvation by grace ( Ephesians 2:8-10) whereas all the non Christian has is their works ( Romans 2:6-16, Revelation 20:11-15 etc.). There are obviously good & evil among professed believers ( wheats & tares) & the non Christians. A careful read of Matthew 7:1-29 might be helpful.

JohnClay said:

Also is it still just if the suffering is unbearable?

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Those who are not born again are dead in trespass and sin. Heaven will be intolerable for them. The suffering is the consequence of rejecting Christ. God is not unjust. There is the principle of sowing and reaping and God applies that with perfectly righteous judgement.