Christions and Mesienic Jew

You can post in the MJ section (and similarly in other denominational sections -- Lutheran, Catholic, etc) if you are asking questions respectfully and aren't there to argue about why MJs (Lutherans, Catholics, etc) are wrong. Questions like "What do MJs believe about ___?" or "What is the MJ approach to ___?" are welcome, as long as you're willing to accept their answer without debate.

As to "Can were share what we have learned over the years?", if you're not MJ, and you want to post about your own experiences, then it's better to post that in a different, more general section, like General Theology.

Grafted In said:

It seems to me the Mjs and Christions get along better here at CF.
I see this as an huge advantage in every Scriptural discussion.

On the other hand, where I've been may simply have been more divided

The Bible tells us we are one in equal during the Grace period.

Can I post on the MJ section?.
We both (I must admit to thinking I can learn far more from MJs then they me)
Can were share what we have learned over the years?

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You are welcome to respectfully ask questions in the MJ forum without arguing. I years past, I used forums like this site to sound out Messianic ideas to see if I could defend them before I had fully committed to them. You've to a Grace period twice so far, so what exactly do you mean by that and what is the biblical basis for it?

Grafted In said:

It seems to me the Mjs and Christions get along better here at CF.
I see this as an huge advantage in every Scriptural discussion.

On the other hand, where I've been may simply have been more divided

The Bible tells us we are one in equal during the Grace period.

Can I post on the MJ section?.
We both (I must admit to thinking I can learn far more from MJs then they me)
Can were share what we have learned over the years?

Click to expand...

Making a distinction between Christians and "Messianic Jews" seems to me inherently problematic. The earliest Christians were Jews, there are Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians. But there's no distinction between them, as St. Paul says "circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing". There is only one Christian Church, one people in and of Jesus Christ.

The term "Messianic Judaism" is a modern term that largely refers to a religious movement that had its origins in the 20th century. And while I fully support Jewish Christians in their freedom of conscience to maintain their Jewish identity as Christians, just as I believe Gentile Christians maintain their unique cultural identities as Christians; I don't think that it is beneficial to create a dividing line between Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians. That is contrary to the spirit of Christian unity.

Conceive, for a moment, a movement that sought to distinguish Irish or Celtic followers of Jesus from the rest of the Body of Christ. That there are "Hiberno Disciples" and Christians. That would be really weird, right? And it also feels insensitive, if not in a lot of ways, insulting to the long tradition of Christianity among the Irish, and the Irish contributions to the Church catholic throughout the centuries. Of course Irish Christians exist, but they are Irish Christians. That can be celebrated, the contributions of Irish Christian thought can be celebrated, Irish heritage can be celebrated within the greater whole of the Church; but we do not divide the Body of Christ along lines of ethnicity, lineage, culture, and other such things.

"For there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

I do not want to undermine Jewishness, Jewishness should be celebrated. But I consider the Messianic movement to be often very misguided and having less to do with Jewishness within Christianity, and more about novelty for the sake of novelty. It is, sadly, very often just a form of Evangelicalism that wears Ashkenazi culture like a costume; rather than an authentic expression and celebration of Jewishness within the larger landscape of Christianity.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

Making a distinction between Christians and "Messianic Jews" seems to me inherently problematic. The earliest Christians were Jews, there are Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians.

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"Messianic Jew" refers to a Jew who follows the Messiah, while "Messianic Judaism" refers to the sect of Judaism that follows the Messiah, so in that regard, the earliest Christians before the inclusion of Gentiles in Acts 10 were all Messianic Jews who practiced the religion of Messianic Judaism.

ViaCrucis said:

But there's no distinction between them, as St. Paul says "circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing". There is only one Christian Church, one people in and of Jesus Christ.

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Paul also said in Romans 3:31 that circumcision has much value in every way, so the issue with that and 1 Corinthians 7:19 is that circumcision conditionally has value if someone obeys the Torah, and the way to recognize that a has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to it, which is the same way to tell for a Jew (Romans 2:25-26, Deuteronomy 10:12-16). In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, and he walked in obedience to the Torah.

ViaCrucis said:

The term "Messianic Judaism" is a modern term that largely refers to a religious movement that had its origins in the 20th century. And while I fully support Jewish Christians in their freedom of conscience to maintain their Jewish identity as Christians, just as I believe Gentile Christians maintain their unique cultural identities as Christians; I don't think that it is beneficial to create a dividing line between Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians. That is contrary to the spirit of Christian unity.

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A body can have many different parts, but that is not contrary to its unity.

ViaCrucis said:

Conceive, for a moment, a movement that sought to distinguish Irish or Celtic followers of Jesus from the rest of the Body of Christ. That there are "Hiberno Disciples" and Christians. That would be really weird, right? And it also feels insensitive, if not in a lot of ways, insulting to the long tradition of Christianity among the Irish, and the Irish contributions to the Church catholic throughout the centuries. Of course Irish Christians exist, but they are Irish Christians. That can be celebrated, the contributions of Irish Christian thought can be celebrated, Irish heritage can be celebrated within the greater whole of the Church; but we do not divide the Body of Christ along lines of ethnicity, lineage, culture, and other such things.

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Christ set a perfect example for us to follow of how to practice Judaism by walking in sinless obedience to the Torah, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), the label of "Christian" no longer refers to someone who refers to someone who follows Christ's example of practicing Judaism in obedience to the Torah, so if I use that label to refer to myself, then I am communicating something that is false about what I believe, so I need to use a different label to more accurately communicate what I believe, which is not intended to be an insult to the contributions of Christians.

ViaCrucis said:

"For there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

Click to expand...

The Bible clearly refers to people who are Jews, Greeks, males, females, slaves, or free, and Paul specifically identified as a Jew on two occasions, so he was not denying the reality of these distinctions, but rather he was denying that they gave someone a higher status when it comes to being in Christ.

ViaCrucis said:

I do not want to undermine Jewishness, Jewishness should be celebrated. But I consider the Messianic movement to be often very misguided and having less to do with Jewishness within Christianity, and more about novelty for the sake of novelty. It is, sadly, very often just a form of Evangelicalism that wears Ashkenazi culture like a costume; rather than an authentic expression and celebration of Jewishness within the larger landscape of Christianity.

-CryptoLutheran

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While that is the case for some, there are many who authentically seek to practice Messianic Judaism as it was practiced by the earliest Christians.

Grafted In said:

It seems to me the Mjs and Christions get along better here at CF.
I see this as an huge advantage in every Scriptural discussion.

On the other hand, where I've been may simply have been more divided

The Bible tells us we are one in equal during the Grace period.

Can I post on the MJ section?.
We both (I must admit to thinking I can learn far more from MJs then they me)
Can were share what we have learned over the years?

Click to expand...

You can post in the Messianic Jewish subforum as long as you are not trying to change their doctrine or argue with them. That is the same for all subforms for various groups/denominations. You can ask questions and comment as long as it is not considered to be in opposition to the group whose subforum you are posting on.

Soyeong said:

"Messianic Jew" refers to a Jew who follows the Messiah, while "Messianic Judaism" refers to the sect of Judaism that follows the Messiah, so in that regard, the earliest Christians before the inclusion of Gentiles in Acts 10 were all Messianic Jews who practiced the religion of Messianic Judaism.


Paul also said in Romans 3:31 that circumcision has much value in every way, so the issue with that and 1 Corinthians 7:19 is that circumcision conditionally has value if someone obeys the Torah, and the way to recognize that a has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to it, which is the same way to tell for a Jew (Romans 2:25-26, Deuteronomy 10:12-16). In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, and he walked in obedience to the Torah.

A body can have many different parts, but that is not contrary to its unity.


Christ set a perfect example for us to follow of how to practice Judaism by walking in sinless obedience to the Torah, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), the label of "Christian" no longer refers to someone who refers to someone who follows Christ's example of practicing Judaism in obedience to the Torah, so if I use that label to refer to myself, then I am communicating something that is false about what I believe, so I need to use a different label to more accurately communicate what I believe, which is not intended to be an insult to the contributions of Christians.



The Bible clearly refers to people who are Jews, Greeks, males, females, slaves, or free, and Paul specifically identified as a Jew on two occasions, so he was not denying the reality of these distinctions, but rather he was denying that they gave someone a higher status when it comes to being in Christ.



While that is the case for some, there are many who authentically seek to practice Messianic Judaism as it was practiced by the earliest Christians.

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The earliest Christians didn't practice Messianic Judaism, they practiced Christianity--and the first ones to do that were themselves Jewish. Speaking of "Messianic Judaism" as something that existed in the first century is highly anachronistic.

If I claimed that the first Christians were Lutherans, that'd be silly. Even though I believe Lutheranism is, faithfully, apostolic and biblical Christianity.

Jews and Gentiles who follow Jesus the Messiah are Christians.

I have no desire to go down a rabbit hole over the role, or lack thereof, of the Torah within Christianity. So I'm keeping my comments on this issue specifically. There is only one Body, both Jew and Gentile are members of that one Body because there is now no distinction. If one is a Jewish Christian and wants to honor their Jewishness, then glory be to God. If that means wearing a kippah, observing Shabbat, keeping kashrut, and observing the High Holy Days--insofar as it is done with a clear and free conscience in Christ--then all glory be to God. If it comes out of freedom and grace, then it is honorable.

-CryptoLutheran

Grafted In said:

Sadly, I see it running deeper than denominational differences.

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Well this General Theology forum is pretty much open for discussion - so you could post your observations, comments here if you like as long as it is a Bible topic.

ViaCrucis said:

The earliest Christians didn't practice Messianic Judaism, they practiced Christianity

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Same thing - see Acts 21 if you doubt it.


It is clear from Acts 21 that early NT Christian church leadership -- including all the Apostles - was Messianic Jews (Jewish Christians accepting Christ as the Messiah and accepting the OT as the scripture ordained by God and applicable to the church)

Soyeong said:

"Messianic Jew" refers to a Jew who follows the Messiah, while "Messianic Judaism" refers to the sect of Judaism that follows the Messiah, so in that regard, the earliest Christians before the inclusion of Gentiles in Acts 10 were all Messianic Jews who practiced the religion of Messianic Judaism.


Paul also said in Romans 3:31 that circumcision has much value in every way, so the issue with that and 1 Corinthians 7:19 is that circumcision conditionally has value if someone obeys the Torah, and the way to recognize that a has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to it, which is the same way to tell for a Jew (Romans 2:25-26, Deuteronomy 10:12-16). In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, and he walked in obedience to the Torah.

A body can have many different parts, but that is not contrary to its unity.


Christ set a perfect example for us to follow of how to practice Judaism by walking in sinless obedience to the Torah, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), the label of "Christian" no longer refers to someone who refers to someone who follows Christ's example of practicing Judaism in obedience to the Torah, so if I use that label to refer to myself, then I am communicating something that is false about what I believe, so I need to use a different label to more accurately communicate what I believe, which is not intended to be an insult to the contributions of Christians.



The Bible clearly refers to people who are Jews, Greeks, males, females, slaves, or free, and Paul specifically identified as a Jew on two occasions, so he was not denying the reality of these distinctions, but rather he was denying that they gave someone a higher status when it comes to being in Christ.



While that is the case for some, there are many who authentically seek to practice Messianic Judaism as it was practiced by the earliest Christians.

Click to expand...

The torah???!!! On my goodness. “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. Hebrews 10.26. We are commanded against following those Jewish practices, which actually seems to be a salvation issue. I think some people just take all this too far.

todd0248 said:

The torah???!!! On my goodness. “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. Hebrews 10.26. We are commanded against following those Jewish practices, which actually seems to be a salvation issue. I think some people just take all this too far.

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In Psalms 119:142, the Torah is truth, so it is the way that we receive knowledge of the truth, and obeying the Torah is not sinning willfully, but rather sin is the transgression of the Torah (1 John 3:4). Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and the Torah is how we know what sin is (Romans 3:20), so while we do not earn our salvation as a wage by obeying it, living in obedience to it is nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of Jesus saving us from not living in obedience to it.

Soyeong said:

In Psalms 119:142, the Torah is truth, so it is the way that we receive knowledge of the truth, and obeying the Torah is not sinning willfully, but rather sin is the transgression of the Torah (1 John 3:4). Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and the Torah is how we know what sin is (Romans 3:20), so while we do not earn our salvation as a wage by obeying it, living in obedience to it is nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of Jesus saving us from not living in obedience to it.

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im sticking to the kjv every word

todd0248 said:

im sticking to the kjv every word

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I've said nothing contrary to the KJV.

Do you agree with this verse?:

Romans 3:31 (KJV) Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Soyeong said:

I've said nothing contrary to the KJV.

Do you agree with this verse?:

Romans 3:31 (KJV) Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

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But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless titus 3.9. I'm not interested in your religion and the new testament warns against following it-stay away from me!

todd0248 said:

But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless titus 3.9. I'm not interested in your religion and the new testament warns against following it-stay away from me!

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Warning to avoid foolish disputes about those matters is not warning against all discussions concerning those matters, just the ones that are foolish disputes. The books of Matthew and Luke contain genealogies, so there is a time and a place for discussing them, but there are also ways of discussing them that are foolish disputes that we should avoid. Much of the NT discusses God's law, so Paul was not saying that we should avoid discussing it general. In particular, in Titus 3:1-8, Paul exhorted us to do good works, and according to 2 Timothy 3:16-17, all Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for equipping us to do every good work, so Titus 3:9 should not be interpreted as Paul turning around and speaking against exhorting people to do good works in obedience to Scripture. The NT warns against sin and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4).