Why is earth's AGE important to you?

[BNR32FAN]

Actually when I read the whole OT with the major and minor prophets, what do I see when I step back?
Destruction / Reconstruction. Judgment / Redemption. Death followed by Resurrection.

In Genesis 1 there’s no mention of destruction only creation. There was nothing to destroy because everything was created from nothing.

 

[Job 33:6]

These are all interesting points, however someone like John Walton if I'm not mistaken is the one who popularized this ANE hermeneutic and I don't see any young earth creationists adopting this method. It seems that the only logical conclusion is that if Genesis 1-11 is only meant to be interpreted spiritually then we are left with no information about the beginning. How do we know Adam and Eve really existed then? If death of living creatures happened before the fall, then the door is open to evolutionary assumptions. I would say the main thrust of the argument is that Genesis 1:6-7 does seem to be describing something hard to understand. But how can I be certain it's speaking about a solid dome that everyone in the ancient times would know to be a reference to flat earth cosmology? Supposing the Pentateuch was written in the 15th century BC, I'd have to know the culture of that time which I know nothing about.

John Walton popularized "the" "ANE hermeneutic" ?

I guess that may be partially true. He is accessible because he is on social media. But his views are not unique, nor did they originate with him. His ideas really are just of a larger scholarly consensus. Ancient Near Eastern Texts have been gradually discovered over the past 150 years or so. Consider how long the dead sea scrolls have been around for example. The hermeneutic may seem "new", but thats only because ancient near eastern artifacts themselves, and their discovery, is somewhat "new". At the same time however, the dead sea scrolls are quite old. YECism also may seem, at first glance "old" or the historical and traditional way to understand the text. But as we can see, YECism is actually largely influenced by modern science via scientific concordism. As you are likely seeing in the resources that I have been sharing.

As far as I am aware, almost no Bible scholars deny ancient near east context of the old testament. And YEC appear to be a minority as well.

And acknowledging ancient near east context of Genesis doesn't mean that Adam and Eve didn't exist. It doesn't mean to interpret the text "metaphorically".

The goal is to simply understand the text as the authors wanted the listener to understand it.

If the authors thought earth was not a sphere (because that wasn't discovered until perhaps 600BC or so), then when they say "a flood covered the earth", we have to understand what that actually means, as they would have seen it.

It doesn't mean that the history they describe isn't real. It just means that it may not look the same as what is immediately assumed in our context.

And that's absolutely correct, in order to understand the passages that may currently seem difficult to understand, requires.....

Work.

I know. Its disappointing. The Bible takes work, to understand.

And that's why the church is having such a hard time today. The evangelical church in particular. Because many in the church, quite frankly, don't want to put in the work to read about the ancient near east historical background of the Bible.

But no worries! Because many Bible scholars have actually done a lot of the work for us already.

What was once thought to be a difficult situation, turns out to be not so bad if we know where to look.

I would recommend the "NIV application commentary series" with consulting editors John Walton and Tremper Longman III.

There are many short and simple books on the subject such as:

John Waltons:
Lost World of Genesis 1
Lost World of Adam and Eve
Lost World of the Flood

Micheal Heiser's:
The unseen realm
Reversing hermon

Ben Stanhope:
(Mis) interpretating Genesis

Miller and Soden:
In the Beginning...We Misunderstood

Seven Days That Divide the World: The Beginning According to Genesis and Science” by John Lennox

Reading Genesis 1-2: An Evangelical Conversation” edited by J. Daryl Charles

Four Views on the Historical Adam” edited by Ardel B. Caneday

Death Before the Fall: Biblical Literalism and the Problem of Animal Suffering” by Ronald E. Osborn

Reading Genesis Well by John Collins.


Among others. There are actually many resources available. There is also a Facebook group known as "Answers to Answers in Genesis" that I would also recommend for casual conversations.

Other Bible Scholars worth mentioning:
Peter Enns
Roy Gane
Daniel Block
Robert Hubbard
Lawson Younger
Bill T Arnold
Gus Konkel
Andrew Hill
Douglass Green
Karen Jobes
Dennis Magary
Gerald Wilson
Paul Koptsk
Iain Provan
John Oswalt
Andrew Dearman
Iain Duguid
Tremper Longman III
Gary Smith
James Bruckner
David Baker
Mark Boda

All of the above are PhD Hebrew scholars with commentaries written with details of the ancient near east context of the Old Testament.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The goal is to simply understand the text as the authors wanted the listener to understand it.

If I wrote you a letter saying that the builders built my house in a week would you think that I wasn’t trying to give a time frame for how long it took them to build it? Would you think that I was just saying that my house was built, not actually intending to convey how long it took to build it?

 

[Job 33:6]

John Walton popularized "the" "ANE hermeneutic" ?

He is accessible because he is on social media. But his views are not unique, nor did they originate with him. His ideas really are just of a larger scholarly consensus.

As far as I am aware, almost no Bible scholars deny ancient near east context of the old testament. And YEC appear to be a minority as well.

And acknowledging ancient near east context of Genesis doesn't mean that Adam and Eve didn't exist. It doesn't mean to interpret the text "metaphorically".

The goal is to simply understand the text as the authors wanted the listener to understand it.

If the authors thought earth was not a sphere (because that wasn't discovered until perhaps 600BC or so), then when they say "a flood covered the earth", we have to understand what that actually means, as they would have seen it.

It doesn't mean that the history they describe isn't real. It just means that it may not look the same as what is immediately assumed in our context.

And that's absolutely correct, in order to understand the passages that may currently seem difficult to understand, requires.....

Work.

I know. Its disappointing. The Bible takes work, to understand.

And that's why the church is having such a hard time today. The evangelical church in particular. Because many in the church, quite frankly, don't want to put in the work to read about the ancient near east historical background of the Bible.

But no worries! Because many Bible scholars have actually done a lot of the work for us already.

What was once thought to be a difficult situation, turns out to be not so bad if we know where to look.

I would recommend the "NIV application commentary series" with consulting editors John Walton and Tremper Longman III.

There are many short and simple books on the subject such as:

John Waltons:
Lost World of Genesis 1
Lost World of Adam and Eve
Lost World of the Flood

Micheal Heiser's:
The unseen realm
Reversing hermon

Ben Stanhope:
(Mis) interpretating Genesis

Miller and Soden:
In the Beginning...We Misunderstood

Seven Days That Divide the World: The Beginning According to Genesis and Science” by John Lennox

Reading Genesis 1-2: An Evangelical Conversation” edited by J. Daryl Charles

Four Views on the Historical Adam” edited by Ardel B. Caneday

Death Before the Fall: Biblical Literalism and the Problem of Animal Suffering” by Ronald E. Osborn

Reading Genesis Well by John Collins.


Among others. There are actually many resources available. There is also a Facebook group known as "Answers to Answers in Genesis" that I would also recommend for casual conversations.

Other Bible Scholars worth mentioning:
Peter Enns
Roy Gane
Daniel Block
Robert Hubbard
Lawson Younger
Bill T Arnold
Gus Konkel
Andrew Hill
Douglass Green
Karen Jobes
Dennis Magary
Gerald Wilson
Paul Koptsk
Iain Provan
John Oswalt
Andrew Dearman
Iain Duguid
Tremper Longman III
Gary Smith
James Bruckner
David Baker
Mark Boda

All of the above are PhD Hebrew scholars with commentaries written with details of the ancient near east context of the Old Testament.

There are also YouTube channels that make the material easy to digest such as:

https://youtube.com/@WhatYourPastorDidntTellYou?feature=shared

And

https://youtube.com/@InspiringPhilosophy?feature=shared

And

https://youtube.com/@bens7686?feature=shared

And

https://youtube.com/@NakedBiblePodcastUploads?feature=shared

There are lots of resources that make the ancient near east fun and easy to learn about. It does unfortunately take a little bit of time. But, as Christians, some of us enjoy studying the Bible. So it's not so bad.

You'll also notice that answers in Genesis is not in my list of suggested resources. Why? Because answers in Genesis doesn't talk about it. AiG avoids discussions about Biblical context like it's a plague. And so AiG is largely a useless ministry, simply feeding off of the unstudied minds of Christians that haven't made an effort to study the Bible.

But here, we are a little different. We care about scripture, so we put in a little bit of work and we have conversations about it, just like you and I are doing now. Welcome to the discussion!

 

[BNR32FAN]

Work.

I know. Its disappointing. The Bible takes work, to understand.

You say this then recommended a bunch of commentaries where someone else has done all the work then tell you what to believe.

 

[BNR32FAN]

There are also YouTube channels that make the material easy to digest such as:

https://youtube.com/@WhatYourPastorDidntTellYou?feature=shared

And

https://youtube.com/@InspiringPhilosophy?feature=shared

And

https://youtube.com/@bens7686?feature=shared

And

https://youtube.com/@NakedBiblePodcastUploads?feature=shared

There are lots of resources that make the ancient near east fun and easy to learn about. It does unfortunately take a little bit of time. But, as Christians, some of us enjoy studying the Bible. So it's not so bad.

You'll also notice that answers in Genesis is not in my list of suggested resources. Why? Because answers in Genesis doesn't talk about it. AiG avoids discussions about Biblical context like it's a plague. And so AiG is largely a useless ministry, simply feeding off of the unstudied minds of Christians that haven't made an effort to study the Bible.

But here, we are a little different. We care about scripture, so we put in a little bit of work and we have conversations about it, just like you and I are doing now. Welcome to the discussion!

I don’t do commentaries unless they’re from the first two century church writers. You can find a commentary for every heresy under the sun.

 

[Job 33:6]

There are also YouTube channels that make the material easy to digest such as:

https://youtube.com/@WhatYourPastorDidntTellYou?feature=shared

And

https://youtube.com/@InspiringPhilosophy?feature=shared

And

https://youtube.com/@bens7686?feature=shared

And

https://youtube.com/@NakedBiblePodcastUploads?feature=shared

There are lots of resources that make the ancient near east fun and easy to learn about. It does unfortunately take a little bit of time. But, as Christians, some of us enjoy studying the Bible. So it's not so bad.

You'll also notice that answers in Genesis is not in my list of suggested resources. Why? Because answers in Genesis doesn't talk about it. AiG avoids discussions about Biblical context like it's a plague. And so AiG is largely a useless ministry, simply feeding off of the unstudied minds of Christians that haven't made an effort to study the Bible.

But here, we are a little different. We care about scripture, so we put in a little bit of work and we have conversations about it, just like you and I are doing now. Welcome to the discussion!

And one more caveat.

It's not always that people don't want to put in the work to understand the Bible. The reality is that a lot of people just aren't aware of how much material on the ancient near east is actually available. Most people never even heard of it.

You could go to church and ask 10 people about ancient near east cosmology in Genesis and 9 times out of 10, the average Christian would probably look at you in confusion.

But there is actually a ton of material available, for those who do know where to look.

And I'm convinced that concordist organizations such as answers in Genesis intentionally do not talk about this subject, because if they did, their ministry would fall apart overnight.

And that's the sad reality of the alleged "evolution vs creation" debate. It really has nothing to do with science at all. It's just the broader churches lack of familiarity with the context of the Bible.

St Augustine, early church father, in his writings on the literal meaning of Genesis, blatantly describes Saturn and the sun, and the questions of why the celestial waters above do not extinguish the sun. His writings indicate that he was a flat earther, and he denied the existence of "antipodes", people living upside down on the opposite side of the earth.

But who sits around reading St Augustine?

Who in the average church has ever heard of Marduk slaying tiamat, or Baal slaying litanu?

Who in the average church, ever opened up 1 kings and read about God siting in the divine council, instructing the false spirit of the Prophets of Ahab?

Most people in my church have never even bothered to read 99% of the old testament.

But 100% of the church is worried about evolution.

Why? Because that's our modern 21st century context. But we cannot let our modern context confuse our understanding of what the Bible is actually saying. We cant let our modern concerns and politics and issues, blur our ability to understand the Biblical authors ancient context and concerns and their worldview and their politics and their issues, far removed from what we are thinking about today.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Most people in my church have never even bothered to read 99% of the old testament.

But 100% of the church is worried about evolution.

Why? Because that's our modern 21st century context. But we cannot let our modern context confuse our understanding of what the Bible is actually saying.

All I’ve been doing is quoting what the Bible is actually saying. It’s actually saying what is actually written.

 

[didactics]

And I'm convinced that concordist organizations such as answers in Genesis intentionally do not talk about this subject, because if they did, their ministry would fall apart overnight.

The other day I read an article from them about ANE but it really didn't go into depth. It was more of a short explanation of why it doesn't work, and the writer referred to it as the ANE hermeneutic. I'm actually glad you pointed this out to me and I decided to buy a couple books from Dr. Michael Heiser to learn more.

St Augustine, early church father, in his writings on the literal meaning of Genesis, blatantly describes Saturn and the sun, and the questions of why the celestial waters above do not extinguish the sun. His writings indicate that he was a flat earther, and he denied the existence of "antipodes", people living upside down on the opposite side of the earth.

I was not aware of this. I have heard that he denied the existence of antipodeans but I thought it was for another reason. He supposed that no-one could get to the other side and cross the huge expanse of ocean to settle it. And he further supposed that it couldn't be because they would not be descended from Adam. I thought he taught that the Bible contains no clear description of the physical shape and size of the earth or the universe.

 

[Job 33:6]

The other day I read an article from them about ANE but it really didn't go into depth. It was more of a short explanation of why it doesn't work, and the writer referred to it as the ANE hermeneutic. I'm actually glad you pointed this out to me and I decided to buy a couple books from Dr. Michael Heiser to learn more.

I was not aware of this. I have heard that he denied the existence of antipodeans but I thought it was for another reason. He supposed that no-one could get to the other side and cross the huge expanse of ocean to settle it. And he further supposed that it couldn't be because they would not be descended from Adam. I thought he taught that the Bible contains no clear description of the physical shape and size of the earth or the universe.

AiG coverage of ANE context is exceptionally slim. Doubtful we would see any reference or quote of the Baal Cycle, the book of enoch or book of the giants, any mention of Litanu or the divine council of the tablet of Shamash, nor any mention of mesopotamian cosmic geography, or the unfinished kudurru stone. etc.

99.9% of their media tends to keep the focus on science. As if science is some kind of boogyman, as if their hermeneutic is so well understood that its not even worth mentioning.

Its not clear that the words "scientific concordism" are ever mentioned anywhere in any article they have. The most basic concepts of Biblical scholarship around the book of Genesis today, are largely non-existent in AiGs website.

Just look at their website or their youtube page, and look to see if you can find anything on ancient near east context of the Bible. If you dig, you could find maybe 1 or 2 out-dated and vague articles. Meanwhile they have 10,000 articles and videos on topics of science.

They would rather debate "science" in which they are largely untrained, than actually talk about the Bible itself, which in reality ought to be the Christians first approach.

 

[Diamond7]

What is the most important thing that knowing the age of the earth will tell you?

I think it is amazing what God has done and He used science to show us. He wants us to know. He created in a way we can understand. So we can bring Him praise, Honor and Glory. So we can know that God is good.

 

[oikonomia]

I think it is amazing what God has done and He used science to show us. He wants us to know. He created in a way we can understand. So we can bring Him praise, Honor and Glory. So we can know that God is good.

I agree.
What Paul said 2,000 some years ago STILL holds true today and always I believe.

His eternal power and divine characteristics are perceived by the things He has made.

 

[Halbhh]

Why is the age of the earth an important matter to you (if it is)?

What is the most important thing that knowing the age of the earth will tell you?

The age of the Earth has no importance at all for a Christian as a believer if they will just trust the Bible and read as we can see (and many of us have already read or heard these famous passages, but let's do so again!) -->


9 Isaiah answered, “This is the Lord’s sign to you that the Lord will do what he has promised: Shall the shadow go forward ten steps, or shall it go back ten steps?”

10 “It is a simple matter for the shadow to go forward ten steps,” said Hezekiah. “Rather, have it go back ten steps.”

11 Then the prophet Isaiah called on the Lord, and the Lord made the shadow go back the ten steps it had gone down on the stairway of Ahaz.

Bible Gateway passage: 2 Kings 20 - New International Version

Hezekiah’s Illness - In those days Hezekiah became ill and was at the point of death. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz went to him and said, “This is what the LORD says: Put your house in order, because you are going to die; you will not recover.” Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to...

www.biblegateway.com

--------

In addition to reversing time (or else altering Earth in relationship to the sun, which physically should be even more difficult as far as we understand physics in that all matter has inertia/momentum...) -- we also read how another day God made time stand still:

12 On the day the Lord gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the Lord in the presence of Israel:

“Sun, stand still over Gibeon,
and you, moon, over the Valley of Aijalon.”
13 So the sun stood still,
and the moon stopped,
till the nation avenged itself on its enemies,
as it is written in the Book of Jashar.

The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day. 14 There has never been a day like it before or since...

Bible Gateway passage: Joshua 10:1-15 - New International Version

The Sun Stands Still - Now Adoni-Zedek king of Jerusalem heard that Joshua had taken Ai and totally destroyed it, doing to Ai and its king as he had done to Jericho and its king, and that the people of Gibeon had made a treaty of peace with Israel and had become their allies. He and his people...

www.biblegateway.com

We have read:

8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
-------------

So, because a day for God is like any amount of mortal time He chooses, it can be a second or a billion years in our time....

In fact, God is able, and this fits the text of Genesis 1 as perfectly as any other length of mere mortal years of time.

------
(In scripture we also can see that the time duration while God created the heavens and the Earth (in Genesis 1:1) -- that time duration before the first special day of Earth's preparation, and before the Spirit came to water world Earth -- that amount of time is not given anywhere (so, it could be for example ~ 9 billion years).

Also, we are given no suggestion of what was the (mortal/aging) time duration of Adam and Eve's stay in the Garden of Eden before they became mortal and began to age for the first time.

That could have been tens or hundreds of thousands of years for example, because the Lord God Himself walked in the Garden with Adam, and for the Lord a day is like a thousand years....

 

[Ragdoll]

Its not important to me. But the earth is just not as old as evos say it is. We don't even have enough fossils to account for all that time. Evolutionists absolutely need deep time to support their philosophy.

 

[Diamond7]

There was nothing to destroy because everything was created from nothing.

The universe started out very condensed, the size of a mustand seed or according to Science smaller than that.

The only chemical elements created at the beginning of our universe were hydrogen, helium and lithium, the three lightest atoms in the periodic table

 

[Diamond7]

So, because a day for God is like any amount of mortal time He chooses, it can be a second or a billion years in our time....

The first day in Genesis chapter one was 6 billion years. The second day was 3 billion and so on. Each day is half the length of the day before it.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Its not important to me. But the earth is just not as old as evos say it is. We don't even have enough fossils to account for all that time. Evolutionists absolutely need deep time to support their philosophy.

As has already been posted many times without any documented refutation, the earth has been very carefully and accurately measured and found to be 4.54 billion years old. This measurement has been accepted as accurate by all of the more than 100 branches of the natural sciences. It has nothing at all to do with the theory of evolution. For an explanation of this measurement from an evangelical Christian point of view, please see this excellent, detailed article:

Radiometric Dating

Moreover, willfully and deliberately misrepresenting the theory of evolution as a philosophy rather than a theory of science is blatantly dishonest and brings shame to everyone who names Christ Jesus as their savior. Furthermore, all three of the very popular and influential organizations that teach Young Earth Creationism today,

The Institute for Creation Research
Answers in Genesis
Creation Ministries International

teach that none of the 41 species in the cat family (Felidae) that we have today were on board the ark during the flood but that they evolved from one “parent kind” that was on board the ark.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Since we know the Bible is God's word, whatever it speaks on we know it's the truth. And I take Genesis 1 and 2 as history not poetry. There are 4 main views about what is the firmament. Some say it's the atmosphere and clouds. Some say it's a hard metal-like dome over the atmosphere. Still others say the “waters above” is a vapor canopy above the atmosphere that collapsed at the beginning of Noah’s flood. Or the view I find most compelling, the firmament or expanse is what we today call outer space and the “waters above” are the outer boundary of the universe.

Genesis 1-11 is written in a genre of literature that is not found anywhere else in the Bible. It is a very different genre of literature than the Genesis 12-50 is written in, but it is the same genre of literature as the ancients used in their epic tales, sagas, myths, and legends.

Scholars of the Hebrew text of Genesis and the ancient translations of it into Greek and Latin agree that the Hebrew word רָקִיעַ expresses the concept of a solid structure, and that in the Old Testament it conveys the idea of a solid dome. Scholars of the history of the translation of the English Bible agree that the word firmament comes from the Latin word firmamentum in the Latin vulgate, which expresses the concept of the sky as a strong supporting structure.

In the Septuagint, Genesis 1:6-8 reads,

Gen. 1:6. Καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεός γενηθήτω στερέωμα ἐν μέσῳ τοῦ ὕδατος καὶ ἔστω διαχωρίζον ἀνὰ μέσον ὕδατος καὶ ὕδατος. καὶ ἐγένετο οὕτως.
7. καὶ ἐποίησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸ στερέωμα, καὶ διεχώρισεν ὁ θεὸς ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ ὕδατος, ὃ ἦν ὑποκάτω τοῦ στερεώματος, καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ ὕδατος τοῦ ἐπάνω τοῦ στερεώματος.
8. καὶ ἐκάλεσεν ὁ θεὸς τὸ στερέωμα οὐρανόν. καὶ εἶδεν ὁ θεὸς ὅτι καλόν. καὶ ἐγένετο ἑσπέρα καὶ ἐγένετο πρωί, ἡμέρα δευτέρα.

The Greek word στερέωμα is used in the Septuagint to translate the Hebrew word רָקִיעַ, and expresses the concept of “the sky as a supporting structure, the firmament.” (BDAG, the italics are theirs). This Greek word is also found in Paul’s writings to express the concept of a “state or condition of firm commitment, firmness, steadfastness” (BDAG, the italics are theirs),

Col. 2.5. εἰ γὰρ καὶ τῇ σαρκὶ ἄπειμι, ἀλλὰ τῷ πνεύματι σὺν ὑμῖν εἰμι, χαίρων καὶ βλέπων ὑμῶν τὴν τάξιν καὶ τὸ στερέωμα τῆς εἰς Χριστὸν πίστεως ὑμῶν. (NA28)

Col. 2.5. For though I am absent in body, yet I am with you in spirit, and I rejoice to see your morale and the firmness of your faith in Christ. (NRSV)

The Greek word στερέωμα is also found in a number of other ancient Greek writings where it always expresses the concepts of something solid, strength, firmness or steadfastness.

 

[The Barbarian]

Its not important to me. But the earth is just not as old as evos say it is.

Evolutionary theory doesn't say how old the world is. Physicists say how old it is.

The only chemical elements created at the beginning of our universe were hydrogen, helium and lithium, the three lightest atoms in the periodic table

Yep. And not much lithium. All the rest came out of stars.

 

[Vambram]

Six Biological Evidences for a Young Earth

What does the Bible tell us about the age of the earth? Not only does the Bible describe how God created Earth and its life forms in six days, Genesis also contains detailed genealogies and chronologies. Based on the Hebrew Masoretic text, one can deduce Earth’s age to be about 6,000 years.1,2...

www.icr.org