As there is no other scripture which tells of anyone going to and staying in heaven other that the souls of the martyrs, Revelation 6:9-11, then those who cry out must be the dead martyrs, proved by how they ask for their killers to be Judged and punished.
I would not teach this because it implies God is ONLY happy with martyrs who are killed.
But He obtains testimony from others who gave up their soul life denying the self THOUGH they physically died by other means.
We cannot say only killed believers are prepared to marry Christ as His bride. As long as they have made themselves READY they are
assured to be there.
And it was given to her that she should be clothed in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteousnesses of the saints. (Rev. 19:8)
Martyred saints can have made themselves ready.
Unmartyred saints can also have made themselves ready.
The qualification there is that they have wrought the righteous deeds
[righteousness-ES] of the saints.
Are you saying
only those who are killed violently in persecution are worthy to marry Christ as His Bride?
Are you saying the only righteous deeds of the saints is to be killed?
Rev 19:1-3, would indeed include Stephen. But it cannot include living people, as in verse 5; God tells His living servants to fear Him.
Then your teaching is that the only righteous deed of the saints qualifying them for marriage is to be KILLED.
Does the Bible agree with this restriction?
For example
Enoch was translated off the earth because he bore testimony to his righteous living.
By faith Enoch was translated so that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God had translated him. For before his translation he obtained the testimony that he had been well pleasing to God. (Hebews 11:5)
This was not a miscellaneous testimony which has nothing to do with the new covenant saints.
As with so much in the OT it is written for our adminission in these
"ends of the ages have come."
Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our admonition,
unto whom the ends of the ages have come. (1 Cor. 10:11)
For the things that were written previously were written for our instruction, in order that through endurance and through the encouragement of the [OT] Scriptures we might have hope. (Rom. 15:4)
Revelation 19:5-10, then describes the Wedding feast, for all who bear witness to Jesus.
It is not reasonable to say that only martyed saints
"bear witness to Jesus."
That the maryted saints were seen praying in the fifth seal does not mean
unmartyred saints like the
Firstfruits (Rev. 14:1-6) could not also be there at the marriage dinner in heaven.
Concerning this group it says not that they were killed but
"they who follow the Lamb wherever He may go." (v.4)
Some follow the Lamb into martydom and some follow the Lamb wherever He may go, even right up into Heaven like Enoch.
As an eample to us Enoch was taken before the judgment of the flood of Noah. He walked with God.
And his life was a testimony of being well pleasing to the God who translated him ALIVE.
Then come the glorious Return of King Jesus for His Millennium reign, bringing ONLY the souls of the GT martyrs with Him. Rev 20:4
He brings in with Him those whose
righteousnesses or
[righteous deeds] qualified them to:
1.) be at the marriage dinner.
(Rev. 19:8)
2.) descend with Him as His accompanying army from heaven.
(19:14)
Why would you say the Firstfruits who follow the Lamb and were redeemed from the earth have no righteous deeds?
Why would you say those watching and living in His constant presence to be TAKEN in
Matt. 24:40-42 have no righteous deeds?
The example of these taken does not speak of them being killed but watching and righteously performing their expected
service and normal daily living.
Matt. 24:42-47 -
Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes.
But know this, that if the householder had known in which watch the thief was coming, he would have watched and would not have allowed his house to be broken into.
For this reason you also be ready, because at an hour when you do not expect it, the Son of Man is coming.
Who then is the faithful and prudent slave, whom the master has set over his household to give them food at the proper time?
Blessed is that slave whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.
Truly I say to you that he will set him over all his possessions.
As for Stephen and every other dead Christian, they have to wait until the Great White Throne Judgment, and as their names will be found in the Book of Life, they will receive immortality.
Hold on Keras.
The Apostle Paul wrote to the Philippians that some saints there HAD . . . their names already written in
the book of life.
Yes, I ask you also, genuine yokefellow, assist them, since they contended with me in the gospel, as well as with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life. (Phil. 4:3)
Did you get that? They need not wait to see. Their names ARE in the book of life.
The great white throne is long off in the future.
A belief that I totally reject. Seems to me like a rather desperate attempt to shoehorn a 'rapture to heaven' somewhere; anywhere.
Now
that is interesting. I think that
you are "shoehorning" the entire church being on earth to pass through the GT somewhere, anywhere.
I see no "shoehorning" what is quite clear.
Some who are alive and watching will be TAKEN like
Enoch out of the earth befofe the GT.
I said "some".
Mathew 24:38 - For as they were in those days BEFORE THE FLOOD, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day in which Noah entered into the ark,
Matt. 24:40 - AT THAT TIME two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left.
No shoehorn needed buddy.
Here is a Bible passage that confirm the fact that the Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath is some time before His glorious Return. His people, righteous Israel, every faithful Christian who believes in God and keeps His Commandments, will live there in prosperity and peace. Ezekiel 34:11-31, Ezekiel 39:25-29, Isaiah 35:1-10, Amos 9:13-15
You complain about my verbosity. But my studying to reply to most all of your paragraphs is RESPECTFUL to you.
And to look up all of these passages I will not do right now.
Isaiah 66:15-24 ...the Lord coming in fire [not on a cloud, in His glory, at this time],...bringing retribution in anger.
The Lord will judge with fire and sword and test all mankind. All those unclean and wicked will die.
I do not see HOW that makes impossible that some be taken by rapture out of the earth
AT THAT TIME (Matt. 24:40) meaning the time
BEFORE THE FLOOD (v.38) as an example of a remnant of vigilant saints being exempt from world wide judgment.
I do not see how your passages about God coming to judge cannot also be true if there is a pre-tribulation rapture of those obeying to WATCH - live in the Spirit by habit.
I will gather peoples of every tongue- they: [all Christians] will see My glory. 2 Thessalonians 1:10....revealed to His own.
I shall put a sign on [some of] those survivors and will send them to declare My glory to all the nations. [before the Return –these are the 144,000, Rev 7 & 14, Isaiah 66:19
The two concepts simply are not mutually exclusive. That is that IF there is pre-tribulation rapture of some watching there cannot be
Jesus gathering all to see His glory.
And though the symbolic number 144,000 is the same, I do not believe the 144,000 sealed Israelites in chapter 7 are the same 144,000 seen
in heaven. The symbolism of 12,000 times 12,000 (144,000) signaling perfection is used twice.
It does not say "
THE hundred and forty-four thousand" as if the group in heaven was seen before. It simply says 144,000.
with Him a hundred and forty-four thousand, (v.1)
To be fair it does say "THE hundred and forty-four thousand" in verse 3 referring BACK to the verse 1.
If these with the Father's name who follow the Lamb (the Son) were the same group as preserved THROUGH the GT in chapter 7
I think it would be definite that THESE in chapter 14 are THE same 144,000 seen before.
The details of the sealing of the 144,000 in chapter 7 have and old covenant flavor.
The details of the raptured 144,000 in chapter 14 definitely have a new covenant flavor.
Because the sequence of visions in chapter 14 have
"Firstfruits" - events of the GT - then
"Harvest" the strong implication
is that God has early ripened ones and latter ripened ones in time.
No shoehorning required here. There is to God in the end times minority
Firstfruits followed by the GT followed by majority
Harvest,
And none of this makes impossible His coming to judge or show all His glory to anyone.
And no complaining that this post is too long. The length is showing you RESPECT that I am considering carefully your comments.
From all the world, your fellow peoples will come, on every conveyance, like offerings to the Lord. Some will become My priests. Revelation 5:10
His Christian people will rebuild the Temple and serve in it. 1 Peter 2:9, Rev. 11:1-2
As the New heavens and New earth that I am making will endure, so will your posterity endure. This will happen at the end of the Millennium, Revelation 21:1-7
Aren't the believers suppose to be PRIESTS in a PRIESTHOOD of saved Christians in the church age?
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people acquired for a possession, so that you may tell out the virtues of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; (1 Peter 2:9)
The priesthood of the believer has been damaged by the invention of the clergy / laity heirarchy.
In the Lord's recovery we should realize we are not WAITING to be priests. We are now a royal priesthood, every saved person.
So before the millennium and before the age of the new heaven and new earth the normal proper function of all Christians
is to be priests bringing God to people.
All mankind will come to bow before Me. They will see what happened to those who rebelled against Me. This will happen during the Millennium. Zechariah 14:16
I do not see how this could make pre-tribulation rapture of those watching impossible.
The two concepts are not mutually exclusive -
"IF one then NOT the other."
Watching has a
MORAL characteristic there not a
CURIOSITY one.
For example they use the time wisely to live in the Spirit morally righteous lives by habit.
Look therefore carefully how you walk, not as unwise, but as wise,
Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph. 5:15-17)
And again -
Be sober; WATCH. Your adversary, the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking someone to devour.
Him withstand, being firm in your faith, knowing that the same sufferings are being accomplished among your brotherhood in the world.
(1 Pet. 5:8,9)
Deuteronomy 32:41-43 I will sharpen My flashing sword and take vengeance on those who hate Me. Rejoice, you heavens, He will avenge His people and cleanse their Land . Ref: REB some verses abridged.
This does not make pre-tribulation rapture impossible for those living watching righteous godly lives.
There is a wonderful logic in the promise that those people who love the Lord will live in the Promised Land and all those prophecies to His holy people will be fulfilled. They will settle there and be “a light to all nations” as God originally intended.
Isaiah 60:3.... over you, His glory will appear and nations will travel to your light.
Very soon, there will be worldwide, dramatic events, especially in the Middle East, which will completely change the area. The Lord’s faithful people will go to live in all of the holy Land.
When the Lord Jesus Returns, He will save those people from the attacking armies of the Anti Christ. The sudden and complete destruction of those armies as described in Rev. 19:17-21, does not match the Sixth Seal : Rev 6:12-17, or the many other verses describing the Lord’s Day of wrath and vengeance. Amos 5:18-20, Joel 2:11
Then those Gentile people who have refused the “mark of the beast” will join them, Matthew 24:31, and live in the Land, Isaiah 56:8, under King Jesus, for 1000 years.
Written in December 2010
Keraz
Your words are inspiring, encouraging, and comforting in their own right.
But not much of this makes pre-great tribulation rapture of a remnant watching impossible to also happen.
