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Discussion and Debate
Discussion and Debate
Ethics & Morality
Kid's Corporal Punishment - a Risk to Mental Health
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<blockquote data-quote="Paidiske" data-source="post: 77673555" data-attributes="member: 386627"><p>Yes; but my point is that the only useful thing for that purpose is the content of the beliefs. Not whether or not they are rational. </p><p></p><p>Untrue. We can identify the beliefs which underpin abuse without needing to make any judgement about their rationality or otherwise. </p><p></p><p>No; but we can say that belief in hierarchies is one of a cluster of beliefs which underpin abuse. On its own it might only be a red flag; along with acceptance of violence, dynamics of control and rigid roles, that would be much more of a concern. </p><p></p><p>Well, no. That's not really the point. We can look at the pattern; if many abusers all give justifications along the same lines, and we do not observe those beliefs in those who do not abuse, we start to see where the beliefs which underpin abuse are. </p><p></p><p>Well, yes. We do the research with known abusers, so that we can then apply what we know to others. </p><p></p><p>Actually, what I was trying to say is that you cannot automatically characterise them as irrational. </p><p></p><p>I have been saying, over and over, that "rational" is not the same as right, and "irrational" is not the same as wrong. </p><p></p><p>Not at all. We only need to demonstrate that particular beliefs underpin abuse.</p><p></p><p>We have that evidence. That work has been done. We know what those beliefs and attitudes are. This is very well established. </p><p></p><p>But they are not measuring likelihood to abuse. Because abuse is not driven by what they are measuring. </p><p></p><p>Yes, but not in the way that you are claiming. Only in that an abuser holds a cluster of beliefs that non-abusers do not. </p><p></p><p>Systemic oppression is an issue, but it is not what we are discussing in this thread. </p><p></p><p>I think, though, that it takes away our focus from the immediate problem. Sure, we can talk about ideologies of power and control and hierarchy more generally, but we don't even have a basic shared understanding of these as the problem which drive the very particular problem of abuse in the household. We need to build that first. </p><p></p><p>We could relax the restriction and see if harm results. No harm; no need for the restriction. </p><p></p><p>A scam is not a good thing, but it is not the same as coercion.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Paidiske, post: 77673555, member: 386627"] Yes; but my point is that the only useful thing for that purpose is the content of the beliefs. Not whether or not they are rational. Untrue. We can identify the beliefs which underpin abuse without needing to make any judgement about their rationality or otherwise. No; but we can say that belief in hierarchies is one of a cluster of beliefs which underpin abuse. On its own it might only be a red flag; along with acceptance of violence, dynamics of control and rigid roles, that would be much more of a concern. Well, no. That's not really the point. We can look at the pattern; if many abusers all give justifications along the same lines, and we do not observe those beliefs in those who do not abuse, we start to see where the beliefs which underpin abuse are. Well, yes. We do the research with known abusers, so that we can then apply what we know to others. Actually, what I was trying to say is that you cannot automatically characterise them as irrational. I have been saying, over and over, that "rational" is not the same as right, and "irrational" is not the same as wrong. Not at all. We only need to demonstrate that particular beliefs underpin abuse. We have that evidence. That work has been done. We know what those beliefs and attitudes are. This is very well established. But they are not measuring likelihood to abuse. Because abuse is not driven by what they are measuring. Yes, but not in the way that you are claiming. Only in that an abuser holds a cluster of beliefs that non-abusers do not. Systemic oppression is an issue, but it is not what we are discussing in this thread. I think, though, that it takes away our focus from the immediate problem. Sure, we can talk about ideologies of power and control and hierarchy more generally, but we don't even have a basic shared understanding of these as the problem which drive the very particular problem of abuse in the household. We need to build that first. We could relax the restriction and see if harm results. No harm; no need for the restriction. A scam is not a good thing, but it is not the same as coercion. [/QUOTE]
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