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<blockquote data-quote="BobRyan" data-source="post: 77533798" data-attributes="member: 235244"><p>If deleting the miracles of Jesus and his followers does not dismantle Christianity then even Jesus was wrong in John 14 where He says that seeing Jesus is in fact to see God the Father since He is in the Father. Jesus claims we can believe in his deity if for no other reason -- one can reach that state of belief just because of the works (miracles) of Jesus.</p><p></p><p>The very thing that Bart says is not true. Which by Jesus' own statement in John 14 is a position completely undermining His claims about the Godhead, the Gospel, the reliable nature of scripture ... etc.</p><p></p><p>If your argument is that the atheist/agnostic position of Bart (where he admits that Jesus is a real human that exited 2000 years ago and then got killed by the Romans) - is step toward faith from a Pantheistic position to an atheist position, help me understand how Bart's position is a step forward. I don't think pantheists are required by their belief to deny that humans actually existed 2000 years ago or that Jesus was a real human that got killed by the Romans - crucified - 2000 years ago.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 77533798, member: 235244"] If deleting the miracles of Jesus and his followers does not dismantle Christianity then even Jesus was wrong in John 14 where He says that seeing Jesus is in fact to see God the Father since He is in the Father. Jesus claims we can believe in his deity if for no other reason -- one can reach that state of belief just because of the works (miracles) of Jesus. The very thing that Bart says is not true. Which by Jesus' own statement in John 14 is a position completely undermining His claims about the Godhead, the Gospel, the reliable nature of scripture ... etc. If your argument is that the atheist/agnostic position of Bart (where he admits that Jesus is a real human that exited 2000 years ago and then got killed by the Romans) - is step toward faith from a Pantheistic position to an atheist position, help me understand how Bart's position is a step forward. I don't think pantheists are required by their belief to deny that humans actually existed 2000 years ago or that Jesus was a real human that got killed by the Romans - crucified - 2000 years ago. [/QUOTE]
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