Pro-Palestinian supporters at Columbia University confront Jews ‘to push them out of camp’

Hans Blaster

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The Quran is referring to original revelation given to Jesus; the Injil (gospel).

We sent Jesus son of Mary, fulfilling the Torah that preceded him; and We gave him the Gospel, wherein is guidance and light, and confirming the Torah that preceded him, and guidance and counsel for the righteous. (Qur'an 5:46)

This could not be the gospels that are in the Bible, because they had not been written yet, and the Qur'an says that the gospel was given directly to Jesus.

As someone not familiar with the Quran, that sounds a lot like the Gospel Paul writes of -- the message of Jesus. It certainly isn't any of the books called Gospels because none of those had been written yet.
 
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stevevw

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The Quran is referring to original revelation given to Jesus; the Injil (gospel).

We sent Jesus son of Mary, fulfilling the Torah that preceded him; and We gave him the Gospel, wherein is guidance and light, and confirming the Torah that preceded him, and guidance and counsel for the righteous. (Qur'an 5:46)

This could not be the gospels that are in the Bible, because they had not been written yet, and the Qur'an says that the gospel was given directly to Jesus.
So what was this gospel that came before the Qur'an that was revealed to Jesus that he taught to others. Either way its contradictory. If its the Torah then the Qur'an is contradicting itself when it says believe the Torah as it is from God and is truth. Because the Old Testament prophesizes about the Messiah being 'Immanuel' God is with us, God made flesh. It speaks about Him being crucified and rising again. More of less what the Gospels say.

The Gospels were written during the 1st century and would have been widely known especially within Isreal and Sumaria and surroundings where the Muslims had occupied. The Qur'an quotes parts of the gospels so they must have known its contents. This was soon after the fall of the Roman Empire where Christianity became the Empires religion so it was widely known.

It would be strange that the Qur'an did not refer to the Gospels as the Book of the people because at that time it was the Book of the people in that area. Why would the Qur'an not mention the Gospels which is about Jesus and only the Torah.

“It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong)” (Surah 3:3).
Arabs in the Middle East at the time of Muhammad were illiterate for the most part, and even for those who could read, there was no Arabic translation of the Torah or the Bible at the time.
But we are talking about those who wrote the or put it together which was around 632 but was actually compiled in the early 8ths century. If they knew of Christs mother Mary, disputed Christs status as the Son of God and His crucifixtion then where did they get that information from. They must have known the gospels to know that. As Christianitry was growing fast and there would have been many early Christian churches, writings and stories around this would have been fairly well known.
When the Quran mentions the previous scripture, it's referring to the original revelations. The written and published scriptures we have available today aren't considered to be an original revelation in Islam.
Where are these original revelations. Are these Islamic revelations revealed to Christ to teach Christians. Why would Christ teach Islam to Christians.
He sent down to you the Book with the Truth [The Qur'an], confirming what came before it [The Injil, the Zabur, the Tawrat, and the Suhuf]; and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel [The Injil, Not the Gospels of Matthew, John, Luke, and Mark]. (Quran 3:3)
So we know what the Torah is, what is this other Book of Truth if its not the Qur'an or the Torah. If the Muslims knew of Christ and the Christians, knew of the Christian gospels which were actually about Christ then why didn't they mention the Gospels as part of the Books of Truth considering the verse was about Christ teaching the Christians Truth.
Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “O People of the Book! You have nothing to stand on unless you observe the Torah, the Gospel [The Injil, not the Gospels of Matthew, John, Luke, and Mark], and what has been revealed to you from your Lord.” And your Lord’s revelation to you ˹O Prophet˺ will only cause many of them to increase in wickedness and disbelief. So do not grieve for the people who disbelieve. (Qur'an 5:68)
So is the 'People of the Book' the Christians.
The "People of the Book" are considered those nations/people who received previous revelations from God through the prophets, and the "Book" isn't the Bible but rather a book that is in the presence of God, known as the Mother of Books. It's from this Mother of Books that the Injil/Gospel of Jesus, the Zabur/Psalms of David, the Tawrat/Torah of Moses, and the Suhuf/Scrolls of Abraham originated. They are individual books/scriptures and are not contained in a single book like our Bible. The Qur'an also originated from the Mother of Books. Each of these books was directly given to the prophet to be revealed to their followers at the point in history at which they lived.

View attachment 348270
OK so it looks like the Injil (Gospel) is so called 'Mother Book' that was revealed to Jesus. So if its naming all these previous revelations to the prophets where does the actual New Testament Gospels come in. The actual ones about Jesus and the other New Testament books that are about what Jesus actually taught. How do they fit into the picture.

If the Qur'an mentions all these books you would think that they would include the most important Christian books if they were telling the people of the Book about the truths vealed by Jesus.


According to this video from an Arab source who understand the Qur'an they seem to say that the 'Injil' is the New Testament Gospels.

 
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BCP1928

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Well the imaginary ideas are created by the claim that the Allah gave Christ the Qur'an to teach the Christians when it denies Christ as God. It makes more sense they were talking about the Christians own gospels.
The 'imaginary ideas' I mean are your imaginary ideas about Islam.
The verseI quoted verse 47 comes from a section from verse 42 to 48 in chapter 5 which was suppose to be among the last chapters revealed to Muhammad and speaks about the Chrtistian gospels and the Torah. It quotes directly from the Torah Exodus 21 verse 23 "an eye for an eye". Why would the Qur'an quote a bible they say is corrupt.

Verse 48 which follows 47 says "And O dear Prophet (Muhammad peace and blessing be upon him) we have sent down the true Book upon you confirming the Books preceding it, and a protector and witness over them- therefore judge between them according to what is sent down by Allah".

So it clarifies verse 47 is speaking about the Christian Gospels and the Torah.

Chapter 10 verse 94 says "So if you are in doubt O [Muhammad] about that which We have revealed to you then ask those who have been reading the Scripture before you. The Truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters".

So Allah is saying to Muhammad if you are in doubt Muhammad go to the people before you, the Jews and Christians because they have the Truth in their scriptures.

Whats more at the time Muhammad was writing these last chapters the Gospels and Torah were well read throughout the Middle East so future Muslims were well versed in them as asked why Muhammads name was not in them. So the Qur'an had to contradict the Bible and Jesus by adding that Muhammad would follow Jesus as the last great Prophet.

Chapter 61 verse 6 "And when Jesus son of Mary said Children of Isreal I am indeed Messenger of God to you confirming the Torah that is before me, and giving good tidings of a Messenger who will come after me whose name shall be Ahmad (Muhammad)".

So it seems that this is the motivation for the Muslims to assume the Christian Bible is corrupt without any evidence because it doen't mention Muhammad.
Muslims accept the OT and the Synoptic Gospels. They find prophecies of Mohammed in the OT
So the MUslims are stuck between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand the Qur'an confirms the Truth of the Gospels and Torah, the Truth of Christ as the Son of God. But on the other hand have to denounce it becuase it doesn't mention Muhammad.
All of that is absolute nonsense, but it seems pretty well worked out so you probably have a source for it. What is it?
 
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stevevw

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The 'imaginary ideas' I mean are your imaginary ideas about Islam.
Then why do so many say that the Qur'an was actually talking about the Christian Gospels.
Muslims accept the OT and the Synoptic Gospels. They find prophecies of Mohammed in the OT
The prophecies of Mohammed in the OT are simply copied from the OT. The point was Muhummad is not mentioned once in the Old or New Testament. You would think that if this is the same Old Testament God that he would be mentions as Muhammad was suppose to be the last great prophet. If Christ is prophesized about then surely Muhammad.
All of that is absolute nonsense, but it seems pretty well worked out so you probably have a source for it. What is it?
Its not rocket science. The Old Testment Prophesises about the Messiah. That Messiah was made God with us. That Messiah was prophesized to be crucified and rise again to save sinners and fullfill Gods Covenant.

If the Qur'an confirms the Old Testament as Truth then it is also confirming that the Messiah like Christ would be God in the flesh who dwelt among us and was crucified and sacrifice as a lamb, as the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. That is how the Old testament describes the Messiah.

Yet the Qur'an rejects a Messiah who comes as God on earth, who was crucified and rose again for our sins.

The New testament writings and stories were well known when the Muslims came to Jeruslam so they knew of Jesus's teachings. Why did they not include Christs teachings and life (the Gospels and other books such as Pauls letters to the Christians) as part of the Books of Truth revealed by God.

If they are addressing the Christians and they believe that the teachings have to be written in the language of the believers then why would Allah send a gospel in a forigne language and not that of the Jews. They though the Gospels were written in Greek because around 600Ad they had been translated into the Greek. But they were originallt Aramaic.
 
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BCP1928

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Then why do so many say that the Qur'an was actually talking about the Christian Gospels.
It is--the Synoptics. When you think about how much of our Christology depends on the Gospel of John and the Epistles, the Muslim position on Jesus makes perfect sense.
The prophecies of Mohammed in the OT are simply copied from the OT. The point was Muhummad is not mentioned once in the Old or New Testament. You would think that if this is the same Old Testament God that he would be mentions as Muhammad was suppose to be the last great prophet. If Christ is prophesized about then surely Muhammad.
There is, off the top of my head, a prophecy of Muhammad in Isaiah that is not any more fare fetched than the passages supposedly prophesying Christ.
Its not rocket science. The Old Testment Prophesises about the Messiah. That Messiah was made God with us. That Messiah was prophesized to be crucified and rise again to save sinners and fullfill Gods Covenant.

If the Qur'an confirms the Old Testament as Truth then it is also confirming that the Messiah like Christ would be God in the flesh who dwelt among us and was crucified and sacrifice as a lamb, as the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. That is how the Old testament describes the Messiah.
Yeah,well, that is stretching it rather a bit.
Yet the Qur'an rejects a Messiah who comes as God on earth, who was crucified and rose again for our sins.
So do the Jews.
The New testament writings and stories were well known when the Muslims came to Jeruslam so they knew of Jesus's teachings. Why did they not include Christs teachings and life (the Gospels and other books such as Pauls letters to the Christians) as part of the Books of Truth revealed by God.
Because they don't believe that the Gospel of John and Paul's letters are part of the books of truth revealed by God.
If they are addressing the Christians and they believe that the teachings have to be written in the language of the believers then why would Allah send a gospel in a forigne language and not that of the Jews. They though the Gospels were written in Greek because around 600Ad they had been translated into the Greek. But they were originallt Aramaic.
The Gospels were originally written in Koine Greek, though it is possible that there were Aramaic source materials. The first translation of the Gospels was into Syriac, a dialect of Aramaic which became the parent language of modern Arabic.
 
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JosephZ

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The Gospels were written during the 1st century and would have been widely known especially within Isreal and Sumaria and surroundings where the Muslims had occupied.

The Qur'an quotes parts of the gospels so they must have known its contents.
There's no doubt that the Qur'an contains much of what is written in the gospels and the Torah before them. Muhammad, being a merchant, was heavily influenced by the many Christian and Jewish traders he encountered during his travels and he incorporated much of what is found in Judaism and Christianity into the Qur'an. Even more evidence that Islam borrows a lot of its teachings from the gospels can be found in the hadiths, especially those written by Shia scholars.

"Do not do to others what you do not like others to do to you, and if someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him your left cheek too" (Bihar al-anwar)

“You heard what was said to the people of yore, 'Do not commit adultery,' but I tell you, he who looks at a woman and desires her has committed adultery in his heart. If your right eye betrays you, then take it out and cast it away, for it is better for you that you destroy one of your organs than cast your entire body into the fire of hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it away, for it is better for you to destroy one of your organs than that your entire body should go to hell. (Bihar al-anwar)

“I tell you, do not worry about what you will eat or what you will drink or with what you will clothe your bodies. Is not the soul more excellent than food, and the body more excellent than clothes? Look at the birds of the air, they neither sow nor reap nor store away, yet your heavenly Lord provides for them. Are you not more excellent than they'? Who among you by worrying can add a single measure to his stature'? Then why do you worry about your clothes?'' (Bihar al-anwar)

“Beware of liars who come to you in sheep's clothing while in reality they are ravenous wolves. You shall know them by their fruits. It is not possible for a good tree to bear vicious fruit, nor for a vicious tree to bear good fruit.” (Uddat al-da'i)

"Blessed is the man who purifies himself and prefers his soul to everything of this world." (Bihar al-anwar)

“Blessed is he who abandons the present desire for the absent promise.” (Bihar al-anwar)

“The love of this world and the next cannot come together in the heart of a believer, like water and fire in a single vessel.” (Bihar al-anwar)

"Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode." (Bihar al-anwar)

“Never stare at that which is not for you. If you restrain your eyes you will never commit adultery;" (Majmu'at al-Warram)


It would be strange that the Qur'an did not refer to the Gospels as the Book of the people because at that time it was the Book of the people in that area. Why would the Qur'an not mention the Gospels which is about Jesus and only the Torah.
This could be because they were not widely available to the public in written form at the time, especially not in Arabia and among the Arab population, where there would have been no translations available in Arabic. This is just speculation on my part.

Where are these original revelations. Are these Islamic revelations revealed to Christ to teach Christians. Why would Christ teach Islam to Christians.
There are differences of opinion among Muslims as to whether or not the original revelations to the prophets exist today. Some say they were never written down; some believe written fragments of the originals still exist; and others believe they are still available but have been altered.

Islam teaches teaches that Christians had differences between what they believed and had become confused. Some had begun to believe untruths such as the sonship of Jesus and the trinity among other things. The trinity in the Qur'an is the belief in three individual gods; God, Jesus, and Mary and not: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit as we as Christians believe. Apparently Muhammad didn't have a clear understanding of Christianity.

When Jesus came with the clarifications, he said, “I have come to you with wisdom, and to clarify for you some of what you differ about. So fear God, and obey me. God is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him—this is a straight path.” (Qur'an 43:63-64)

So is the 'People of the Book' the Christians.
The People of the Book are followers of prophets other than Mohammed who worship the God of Abraham. This would include both Christians and Jews.

OK so it looks like the Injil (Gospel) is so called 'Mother Book' that was revealed to Jesus. So if its naming all these previous revelations to the prophets where does the actual New Testament Gospels come in. The actual ones about Jesus and the other New Testament books that are about what Jesus actually taught. How do they fit into the picture.
They don't. Muslims believe the gospels found in the New Testament are just books written by ordinary men.

According to this video from an Arab source who understand the Qur'an they seem to say that the 'Injil' is the New Testament Gospels.
The narrator's argument in that video is flawed from the start because the Bible is never mentioned in the Qur'an, and none of the Quranic verses quoted in the video refer to the Bible, the first five books of the Bible (the Torah), or the four gospels that existed at the time of Muhammad. If he has an advanced understanding of Islam, he knows this. It seems his intended audience is those who know very little, if anything, about Islam, and he is intentionally distorting what the Qur'an is saying and what Muslims believe.

As I pointed out in my previous posts, the gospel in Islam was given directly to Jesus from God while he was walking the earth and therefore can not be the gospels found in the Bible. In the same way, the Torah in Islam was directly given to Moses from God while he was alive and walking the earth.

The books of the Torah found in the Bible mention many of the revelations given to Moses but also contain a biography of Moses and talk of Moses’ death and being buried, which obviously couldn't have been written by Moses himself. Muslims believe the Quran preserves the teachings of all of the previous prophets, and the Torah and the gospel that exist today are either not the original or they have been altered, and the proof they give of this is how they are written from a third-person point of view.
 
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JosephZ

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Then why do so many say that the Qur'an was actually talking about the Christian Gospels.
Many Christian apologists and Christian missionaries say this, but you will find very few, if any, Muslims who will make this claim. The few Muslims who may say this will also add that the Christian gospels available today have been altered and are no longer reliable.

If the Qur'an confirms the Old Testament as Truth then it is also confirming that the Messiah like Christ would be God in the flesh who dwelt among us and was crucified and sacrifice as a lamb, as the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. That is how the Old testament describes the Messiah.
The Qur'an never mentions the Old Testament. And while it does mention the Torah, it's the Islamic version of theTorah that was given directly to Moses by God, not the first five books found in the Bible that also contain a historical account of Moses.
 
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Hans Blaster

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are you talking about the 1st century...
The Gospels were written during the 1st century and would have been widely known especially within Isreal and Sumaria and surroundings where the Muslims had occupied. The Qur'an quotes parts of the gospels so they must have known its contents. This was soon after the fall of the Roman Empire where Christianity became the Empires religion so it was widely known.
... or the time when the Quran was written?
It would be strange that the Qur'an did not refer to the Gospels as the Book of the people because at that time it was the Book of the people in that area. Why would the Qur'an not mention the Gospels which is about Jesus and only the Torah.

“It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong)” (Surah 3:3).

But we are talking about those who wrote the or put it together which was around 632 but was actually compiled in the early 8ths century. If they knew of Christs mother Mary, disputed Christs status as the Son of God and His crucifixtion then where did they get that information from. They must have known the gospels to know that. As Christianitry was growing fast and there would have been many early Christian churches, writings and stories around this would have been fairly well known.

In the first century there were no "Muslims" in Palestine, because there were no Muslims anywhere. What was known of the written Gospels at that time and place would be irrelevant. The only thing about the written gospels that would have mattered was if they were available to the writers of the Quran. They almost certainly were given that Christianity had certainly spread to Arabia by then.

The question, which I can't answer but others seem to have, is whether they Quranic authors were talking about the written Gospels (synoptic, or all 4) or the core preaching of Jesus of the kind Paul preached.

The problem is clear when you start (an earlier post) in your complaints about Islamic or Quranic portrayals of Jesus by calling him "Christ" or "the Christ". These are (of course) Christian theological positions about Jesus that he was the messiah/God, positions that Islam rejects.

You seem to have a difficulty dealing with Islamic positions on the nature of Jesus from their prospective and can only think of Jesus from your own Christian prospective. As I think I've said before -- other religions have different beliefs about things. When those religions borrow from prior religions they often interpret the texts and claims of the earlier religion differently than the original religion. Christianity did this to Judaism and Jewish scriptures, and Islam is doing this to your scripture. (As another post noted, Muslims find references to Mohammed in the OT, just as Christians re-interpret the OT for the coming of Jesus.)

According to this video from an Arab source who understand the Qur'an they seem to say that the 'Injil' is the New Testament Gospels.

No one is interested in apologists and their excusifications.
 
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Vanellus

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As I have said here many time before: The gazans can stop this war anytime they want simply by turning on hamas and helping the IDF identify the terrorists and their hidey-hole entrances. Instead the gazans take the cowardly way out and use their women and children as shields and then scream about how terrible Israel is to them. I have no sympathy for them; they are getting everything they deserve.....in spades.
I know this is your pet idea that I believe you have stated more than once in this forum. The problem with it is that it doesn't correspond to the reality of the situation. Netanyahu (and other Israeli leaders) have committed themselves to the complete destruction of Gaza and its people This was the meaning of Netanyahu's reference to Amalek. More examples are given here:

The language being used to describe Palestinians is genocidal | Chris McGreal

Netanyahu's negotiating position is that in return for Hamas returning all the hostages, Israel would grant a brief pause while they do that. Then he has said Israel would continue its campaign to destroy, Hamas, Gaza and its entire population or ethnically cleanse it out of Gaza.. This is not a realistic proposal and the families of the hostages and other Israelis know this. That is why they have been camped out outside Netanyahu's home.

Netanyahu doesn't want the conflict to stop as that would mean elections and a strong possibility he would be kicked out - many in Israel hold him responsible for security failures that allowed Oct 7 to happen. And he is facing legal challenges and possible jail. And as far as he is concerned his own skin is far more valuable than many thousands of Palestinians.
 
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Are you the poster constantly arguing that January 6 was NOT violent? Because cops were beat with a flagpole there and yet.....
January is worse, since the president of the United States told them to break the law. If they don't. They won't have a country anymore.
 
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stevevw

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It is--the Synoptics. When you think about how much of our Christology depends on the Gospel of John and the Epistles, the Muslim position on Jesus makes perfect sense.
The Synoptics, you mean the other gospels besides John. I don't think the Muslims would have understood the Gospel of John. I think the main understanding was the Synoptics. Simple and straight forward telling of Christ as the Messiah, God made flesh and His crucifixtion and resurrection and His miracles which is the core of Christian belief.

The Pauline and other letters were more about spiritual matters which I don't think the Muslims would have understood about being born again in the Holy spirit. But you havn't answered the question. Why do many commentators say that Muhammad is actually talking about the Christian Gospels being the Injil.
There is, off the top of my head, a prophecy of Muhammad in Isaiah that is not any more fare fetched than the passages supposedly prophesying Christ.
Except if its the verse I'm thinking of which seems to be the most popular one cited the biblical scholars disagree and have linked it to a prophesy about the Isrealites themselves as forming a nation.

Isaiah 42 "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations. 2 He will not cry out or raise His voice, Nor make His voice heard in the street.

Isaiah 42:1-4 was first identified by Bernhard Duhm as one of the Servant songs in the Book of Isaiah,[12] along with Is. 49:1–6; Is. 50:4–7; and Is. 52:13–53:12. The Old Testament identifies the servant of the Servant songs as the Israelite's in Is. 41:8–9; Is. 44:1; Is. 44:21; Is. 45:4; Is. 48:20 and Is. 49:3.[13][14]

But still it makes no sense. Why would the Old Testament prophesy about a Prophet who would both deny Christ as the promise Messiah and put an end to the Jews hope of a promised Messiah yet to come with Mohummad being the last great prophet.

Why would this prophet's followers go on to build their Holy place of worship right on top of the Temple Mount which is prophesized to be rebuilt. If the Jews tried to rebuild the Temple on the Mount the Muslims would go crazy. It would be like the Qur'an prophesizing about a Messiah coming who Instructed the Jews to build their Temple on the cite of the Kaaba.

Yeah,well, that is stretching it rather a bit.
Its not. Lets forget that its about Christ. Whoever the Messiah will be he will have to fullfill many prophesies that talk about the Messiah being born of a virgin, being God man flesh dwelling among us, being sacrificed for our sins in crucifixtion, even that His cloths would be gambled away. There are many which Christ fullfills some 350 prophesies. So whoever it is the Qur'an contradicts His status as Gos among us and being crucified and raised from the dead for our sins.
So do the Jews.
Yes but like I said the Jews don't reject a Messiah prophesized that is yet to come. They just reject that it was Christ. But Christ doesn't contradict the prophesies in the Old Testament. The Jews will still believe that the Messiah is the Son of God and the final sacrifice for sin. The Muslims don't.
Because they don't believe that the Gospel of John and Paul's letters are part of the books of truth revealed by God.

The Gospels were originally written in Koine Greek, though it is possible that there were Aramaic source materials. The first translation of the Gospels was into Syriac, a dialect of Aramaic which became the parent language of modern Arabic.
Ok so they pick which parts of the bible they believe in. Presumably Muhammad was referring to the Jews and Christians when speaking about which Truths they should follow.

This would just create conflicts between the Christians they were talking to about following the Book. They tell them only parts of their book reveal the Truth and they reject the actual Books that go into detail about being a Christian like the Pauline letters.

It still undermines the Qur'an as Truth because its telling the Christians and Jews that they will choose what is Truth about their own scriptures thus undermining the claim that the Qur'an is Truth in the minds of Christians and Jews. In that conext the Qur'an doesn't make sense when addressing Christians about what is Truth.

Like I said I think this traces back to the fundemental core Truth of Christ. It seems everything converges on the status of Christ as far as the Qur'an mentions Christians. That is why they reject the Pauline letters which go into Christs death and resurrection and being born again in the spirit, the Holy Spirit for which the Qur'an denies.
 
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stevevw

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Many Christian apologists and Christian missionaries say this, but you will find very few, if any, Muslims who will make this claim. The few Muslims who may say this will also add that the Christian gospels available today have been altered and are no longer reliable.
Ok I have heard Muslims also say this. It doesn't really matter because as I said it doesn't make sense to the very Christians they were speaking to as it only revealed that Muhammad was picking what parts of their bible he supported undermining his own integrity in their eyes.

But its a bit ironic for Muslims to claim the bible has been altered when there are at least 20 versions of the Qur'an floating around.
The Qur'an never mentions the Old Testament. And while it does mention the Torah, it's the Islamic version of theTorah that was given directly to Moses by God, not the first five books found in the Bible that also contain a historical account of Moses.
So where is this Islamic version of the Torah. How is it that the Islamic version trumps the Jewish version when its the Jews writing about the Jews.
 
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civilwarbuff

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I know this is your pet idea that I believe you have stated more than once in this forum. The problem with it is that it doesn't correspond to the reality of the situation. Netanyahu (and other Israeli leaders) have committed themselves to the complete destruction of Gaza and its people This was the meaning of Netanyahu's reference to Amalek. More examples are given here:

The language being used to describe Palestinians is genocidal | Chris McGreal

Netanyahu's negotiating position is that in return for Hamas returning all the hostages, Israel would grant a brief pause while they do that. Then he has said Israel would continue its campaign to destroy, Hamas, Gaza and its entire population or ethnically cleanse it out of Gaza.. This is not a realistic proposal and the families of the hostages and other Israelis know this. That is why they have been camped out outside Netanyahu's home.

Netanyahu doesn't want the conflict to stop as that would mean elections and a strong possibility he would be kicked out - many in Israel hold him responsible for security failures that allowed Oct 7 to happen. And he is facing legal challenges and possible jail. And as far as he is concerned his own skin is far more valuable than many thousands of Palestinians.
What part of 'destroying Hamas' do you not understand? Everyone who stands against terrorists and terrorism understands this. If the gazans aren't smart enough to pick the right dog is this fight then they deserve to get bit.

BTW, it is not a 'pet idea'. When enough people turn against a government that government will fall. The Soviet Union is a great example of that. It's just too bad the people didn't protect what they had afterwards.
 
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JosephZ

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So where is this Islamic version of the Torah. How is it that the Islamic version trumps the Jewish version when its the Jews writing about the Jews.
What I meant by the Islamic version of the Torah is how it was received, meaning that it was given directly to Moses by God and wasn't a third person account like the written Torah found in the Bible. Islam teaches that the Torah is the divine revelation to the children of Israel that was revealed to Moses on Mount Sinai, so it is the same in that regard.

We made the oppressed people inherit the eastern and western parts of the land, which We had blessed. Thus the fair promise of your Lord to the Children of Israel was fulfilled, because of their endurance. And We destroyed what Pharaoh and his people had built, and what they had harvested.

“O Moses, I have chosen you over all people for My messages and for My Words. So take what I have given you, and be one of the thankful.”

And We inscribed for him in the Tablets all kinds of enlightenments, and decisive explanation of all things. “Hold fast to them, and exhort your people to adopt the best of them. I will show you the fate of the sinners.”

In his absence, the people of Moses adopted a calf made from their ornaments—a body which lowed. Did they not see that it could not speak to them, nor guide them in any way? They took it for worship. They were in the wrong.

And when Moses returned to his people, angry and disappointed, he said, “What an awful thing you did in my absence. Did you forsake the commandments of your Lord so hastily?” And he threw down the tablets;

When the anger abated in Moses, he took up the tablets. In their transcript is guidance and mercy for those in awe of their Lord.
(Quran 7:137,144-145,148,150,154)


We made a covenant with the Children of Israel: “Worship none but God; and be good to parents, and relatives, and orphans, and the needy; and speak nicely to people; and pray regularly, and give alms.” Then you turned away, except for a few of you, recanting.

And We made a covenant with you: “You shall not shed the blood of your own, nor shall you evict your own from your homes.” You agreed, and were all witnesses.
(Qur'an 2:83-84)
 
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BCP1928

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Ok I have heard Muslims also say this. It doesn't really matter because as I said it doesn't make sense to the very Christians they were speaking to as it only revealed that Muhammad was picking what parts of their bible he supported undermining his own integrity in their eyes.
It's entirely possible that Muhammed knew of the Gospel through the Diatessaron rather than the Western canonical Gospels. Further, the Christians he would have been familiar with were probably all Nestorians. It's easy to see why he might have put a different spin on Christology than you do.
 
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Carl Emerson

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What I meant by the Islamic version of the Torah is how it was received, meaning that it was given directly to Moses by God and wasn't a third person account like the written Torah found in the Bible. Islam teaches that the Torah is the divine revelation to the children of Israel that was revealed to Moses on Mount Sinai, so it is the same in that regard.

We made the oppressed people inherit the eastern and western parts of the land, which We had blessed. Thus the fair promise of your Lord to the Children of Israel was fulfilled, because of their endurance. And We destroyed what Pharaoh and his people had built, and what they had harvested.

“O Moses, I have chosen you over all people for My messages and for My Words. So take what I have given you, and be one of the thankful.”

And We inscribed for him in the Tablets all kinds of enlightenments, and decisive explanation of all things. “Hold fast to them, and exhort your people to adopt the best of them. I will show you the fate of the sinners.”

In his absence, the people of Moses adopted a calf made from their ornaments—a body which lowed. Did they not see that it could not speak to them, nor guide them in any way? They took it for worship. They were in the wrong.

And when Moses returned to his people, angry and disappointed, he said, “What an awful thing you did in my absence. Did you forsake the commandments of your Lord so hastily?” And he threw down the tablets;

When the anger abated in Moses, he took up the tablets. In their transcript is guidance and mercy for those in awe of their Lord.
(Quran 7:137,144-145,148,150,154)


We made a covenant with the Children of Israel: “Worship none but God; and be good to parents, and relatives, and orphans, and the needy; and speak nicely to people; and pray regularly, and give alms.” Then you turned away, except for a few of you, recanting.

And We made a covenant with you: “You shall not shed the blood of your own, nor shall you evict your own from your homes.” You agreed, and were all witnesses.
(Qur'an 2:83-84)
Do you think the Koran is divine revelation ?
 
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RocksInMyHead

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Is the Koran, and by extension Islamic commentary then, a reliable source of facts concerning the Torah or anything else for that matter?
It is a reliable source for the Islamic perspective of the Torah. When you're talking about what someone else believes, it doesn't really matter whether or not they're correct or their sources are reliable. They believe what they believe.
 
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