The LORD says to my lord

Yes, psalm 110, and in particular this verse, was the key prove to the eyes of the first Christians that Jesus is our Lord and our God.
It is good that someone remind here this verse, the base of our faith.

a_ntv said:

Yes, psalm 110, and in particular this verse, was the key prove to the eyes of the first Christians that Jesus is our Lord and our God.
It is good that someone remind here this verse, the base of our faith.

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Huh? Psalm 110 makes a very sharp distinction between YHWH and David's lord/adon/kyrios = the Messiah, that's all very fascinating and valuable information, and based on John 1:1c ('god is the word') we know about Yeshua's divinity, but Psalm 110 itself says nothing about Yeshua being God, just that the Messiah would sit at the right hand of YHWH, exalted and His enemies put under His feet.

Reluctant Theologian said:

Huh? Psalm 110 makes a very sharp distinction between YHWH and David's lord/adon/kyrios = the Messiah, that's all very fascinating and valuable information, and based on John 1:1c ('god is the word') we know about Yeshua's divinity, but Psalm 110 itself says nothing about Yeshua being God, just that the Messiah would sit at the right hand of YHWH, exalted and His enemies put under His feet.

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Psalm 110:1 in the current Hebrew text make a difference between YHWH and Adonai (Kyrios), but we we don't know the text at time of Jesus (this psalm unfortunately is not preserved in Qumran).
The LXX has "eipen o Kyrios tw Kyriow", and very probable also the Hebrew was pronounced in this way

For sure Jesus himself made no distinction between YHWN and Kyrios, as we see in Matthew 22:43-44:

He said to them, “How then does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord,’ saying:

44 ‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool” ’?

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And there is no doubt (even if it may look strange to some Protestant) that the first Christians up to the 2 century identified YHWN with Jesus, so for them it was Jesus that appeared in fire to Moses on Sinai (but this is an other topic)

tonychanyt said:

What language did Jesus speak?

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Probably Yeshua could read Hebrew (as He read from the scrolls in the synagogue), but in daily life He probably spoke Aramaic as that was the daily language among the people in Israel at that time (the Gospels contain several Aramaic phrases by Yeshua), and I think it's unlikely He mastered Greek but He may have had basic understanding of it. We only know from the apostle Paul that he spoke Greek, the other eleven probably didn't. It is notable however some of the Dead-Sea scrolls were in Greek although a minority.

The Gospel of Matthew originally was even written in either Hebrew or Aramaic (as is testified by several Early Church figures) - the current oldest text we have is only a translation of that in Greek.

a_ntv said:

Psalm 110:1 in the current Hebrew text make a difference between YHWH and Adonai (Kyrios), but we we don't know the text at time of Jesus (this psalm unfortunately is not preserved in Qumran).
The LXX has "eipen o Kyrios tw Kyriow", and very probable also the Hebrew was pronounced in this way

For sure Jesus himself made no distinction between YHWN and Kyrios, as we see in Matthew 22:43-44:


And there is no doubt (even if it may look strange to some Protestant) that the first Christians up to the 2 century identified YHWN with Jesus, so for them it was Jesus that appeared in fire to Moses on Sinai (but this is an other topic)

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How do you know the Hebrew text at Yeshua's time didn't have the words 'YHWH' and 'Adoni' (my lord) in Psalm 110:1? On what do you base the assumption that the Hebrew text at that time would contain something along the lines of 'the lord said to my lord' ?

The quote from Yeshua in Matthew 22:43-44 was originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic - we now only have a surviving Greek translation of that, but we can safely assume that Yeshua didn't utter those words originally in Greek.

There are several other Psalms that carefully distinguish between YHWH and the (supposed) Messiah; the assumption that those Psalms originally didn't use the very name of God should be based on evidence.

Even one Greek Dead-Sea scroll found in Qumran (8HevXIIgr - Nahal Hever Minor Prophets) surprisingly doesn't use the common 'kyrios' as the translation for the Tetragrammaton, but left the name of God YHWH untranslated - that is a significant indicator.

Other Psalms distinguishing between YHWH and the Messiah:

- Psalm 2:2
- Psalm 16:10
- Psalm 22:8
- Psalm 31:5/6
- Psalm 34:19-20
- Psalm 80:17
- Psalm 118:25,26

Especially Psalm 118:25-26 is interesting as this was shouted towards Yeshua when He entered Jerusalem on a donkey:

Yeshua comes in the name of YHWH ! Yeshua is the שׇׁלוּחַ‎ (shaluach) (sent one) of YHWH - as He testifies about Himself several times in the Gospel of John. And as we can read in John 17:11, Philippians 2:9 and Hebrews 1:4, Yeshua received/inherited the name above all names from His Father - an honorary name/title in a way, otherwise I cannot properly interpret those three aligning verses on this matter.

tonychanyt said:

What language did Jesus speak?

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Jesus spoke Aramaic.
Probably he knew also some Hebrew, that at that time was a death language (like Latin to today Italians).
In any case the Books of the Bible were taught by memory (papyrs were very expensive), and for sure Jesus (as his peers) knew the Psalms by memory. And regardless of what was written on the rolls, the use was always to pronounce YHWH as Adonai, Kyrios.

Therefore there is no need to think that Mt 22:44 was badly translated from Aramaic to Greek: also in Aramaic YHWH was orally always pronounced Adonai/Kyrios, and so was understood by Jesus himself (and from his peers). Otherwise Mt 22:43-44 has no sense.

Jesus probably knew also a little Greek: down the north side of the mountains were Nazareth is, there was the large hellenistic/Greek town of Sepphoris, and very probable the family of Jesus worked as carpenters in that town, keeping home, wives and sons in the protected Nazareth.

a_ntv said:

Jesus spoke Aramaic.
Probably he knew also some Hebrew, that at that time was a death language (like Latin to today Italians).
In any case the Books of the Bible were taught by memory (papyrs were very expensive), and for sure Jesus (as his peers) knew the Psalms by memory. And regardless of what was written on the rolls, the use was always to pronounce YHWH as Adonai, Kyrios.

Therefore there is no need to think that Mt 22:44 was badly translated from Aramaic to Greek: also in Aramaic YHWH was orally always pronounced Adonai/Kyrios, and so was understood by Jesus himself (and from his peers). Otherwise Mt 22:43-44 has no sense.

Jesus probably knew also a little Greek: down the north side of the mountains were Nazareth is, there was the large hellenistic/Greek town of Sepphoris, and very probable the family of Jesus worked as carpenters in that town, keeping home, wives and sons in the protected Nazareth.

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I don't claim Matthew 22:44 was badly translated; I just put forward the fact that our current text of Matthew is only a translation of the Hebrew/Aramaic original. We know that for sure. Many New Covenant/NT books use LXX quotations, but many also draw from the Hebrew original.

The fact that our current best text of Matthew is in Greek still cannot be taken as evidence that Yeshua quoted Psalm 110:1 in Matthew 22:44 in Greek when he spoke those words to his audience. His question on how David could call the Messiah 'his master/lord' while also being His son still makes sense in the case Yeshua spoke Aramaic at that moment - which makes most sense given what we know of Jewish society in those days.

Yeshua's question is orthogonal to the issue on how YHWH was pronounced/quoted at that moment among his Aramaic speaking audience. It could have been 'adonai', it could have been the Aramaic 'mar', but 'kyrios' would seem far-fetched to me.

Having said that, language-wise, the term 'kyrios' / 'adon' / 'lord' / 'master' do not necessarily imply divinity, the term just indicates a position of authority. They are regularly used to refer to God, but also for human references.

Reluctant Theologian said:

I don't claim Matthew 22:44 was badly translated; I just put forward the fact that our current text of Matthew is only a translation of the Hebrew/Aramaic original. We know that for sure. Many New Covenant/NT books use LXX quotations, but many also draw from the Hebrew original.

The fact that our current best text of Matthew is in Greek still cannot be taken as evidence that Yeshua quoted Psalm 110:1 in Matthew 22:44 in Greek when he spoke those words to his audience. His question on how David could call the Messiah 'his master/lord' while also being His son still makes sense in the case Yeshua spoke Aramaic at that moment - which makes most sense given what we know of Jewish society in those days.

Yeshua's question is orthogonal to the issue on how YHWH was pronounced/quoted at that moment among his Aramaic speaking audience. It could have been 'adonai', it could have been the Aramaic 'mar', but 'kyrios' would seem far-fetched to me.

Having said that, language-wise, the term 'kyrios' / 'adon' / 'lord' / 'master' do not necessarily imply divinity, the term just indicates a position of authority. They are regularly used to refer to God, but also for human references.

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funny study bible give the link to Psalm 110:1

Daniel Marsh said:

funny study bible give the link to Psalm 110:1

Matthew 22:44; Mark 12:36; Luke 20:42-43; Acts 2:34-35; Hebrews 1:13

Psalms 109:1

"‘The Lord said to my lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I put your enemies under your feet” ’?" (Matthew 22:44) "David himself, by the Holy Spirit, said, ‘The Lord said to my lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I put your enemies under your feet.” ’" (Mark 12:36) "For David himself says in the book of Psalms, ‘The Lord said to my lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.” ’" (Luke 20:42–43) "For David did not ascend into heaven, but he himself says, ‘The Lord said to my lord, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.” ’" (Acts 2:34–35) "But to which of the angels has he ever said, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”?" (Hebrews 1:13)

"The Lord spoke to my Lord, “Be seated at my right side until I set your enemies as a footstool for your feet.”" (Psalm 109:1)

"Of David. A psalm. The LORD said to my lord, “Sit at My right hand while I make your enemies your footstool.”" (Psalm 110:1)

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Thanks, forgive me for not being smarter but what are you trying to say?

tonychanyt said:

Sure, but other Hebrew manuscripts contain Ps 110:1.

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The oldest complete Hebrew Bible is the Leningrax Codex dated about 1006. Few very partial manuscripts are older, mainly just quotations. So there is a huge gap between the Qumran scroll and the modern Hebrew bible.
Hebrew scholars on this point are very susceptible and refuse to even think that a single letter of their Bible is changed, but actually they have a huge problem of textual criticism, worse than the one of the Christian Bible.
Qurman scrolls shown us that the Hebrew text has been changed in few but significant points (main of them to react to the Christian claims).
Keep in mind that the old Hebrew wrote only the consonants, and it is enough a small piece of line to have a word to completely change and a sentence to change in full. (but this is an other topic).

However I dont say that in the written Hebrew text of psalm 110.1 the two words "YHWH" and Adonai were written in the same way (I cannot prove that), I just think that these two words were learned and known by memory both as "adonai": only in this case Mt 22:44 has sense,

The Protestants, who believe in the unbiblical and unhistorical "Sola Scriptura", shall now decide id the inspired text of Psalm 110:1 is the one in the 1006 AD Leningrad code (with two words "YHWH" and Adonai), or what Jesus and his peers knew by memory (with two "Adonai")

Reluctant Theologian said:

I don't claim Matthew 22:44 was badly translated; I just put forward the fact that our current text of Matthew is only a translation of the Hebrew/Aramaic original. We know that for sure. Many New Covenant/NT books use LXX quotations, but many also draw from the Hebrew original.

The fact that our current best text of Matthew is in Greek still cannot be taken as evidence that Yeshua quoted Psalm 110:1 in Matthew 22:44 in Greek when he spoke those words to his audience. His question on how David could call the Messiah 'his master/lord' while also being His son still makes sense in the case Yeshua spoke Aramaic at that moment - which makes most sense given what we know of Jewish society in those days.

Yeshua's question is orthogonal to the issue on how YHWH was pronounced/quoted at that moment among his Aramaic speaking audience. It could have been 'adonai', it could have been the Aramaic 'mar', but 'kyrios' would seem far-fetched to me.

Having said that, language-wise, the term 'kyrios' / 'adon' / 'lord' / 'master' do not necessarily imply divinity, the term just indicates a position of authority. They are regularly used to refer to God, but also for human references.

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I too believe that Matthew was originally written in Aramaic (see Carmignac studies), and the Greek text which use the two Kyrios is just a translation of the lost Aramaic text (which used two "adonai" or two "mar"), without the need to refer to the LXX.
And the two "adonai" of the Aramaic text was the way that psalm 110:1 was teached by memory to all Hebrews at Jesus time

a_ntv said:

The oldest complete Hebrew Bible is the Leningrax Codex dated about 1006. Few very partial manuscripts are older, mainly just quotations. So there is a huge gap between the Qumran scroll and the modern Hebrew bible.
Hebrew scholars on this point are very susceptible and refuse to even think that a single letter of their Bible is changed, but actually they have a huge problem of textual criticism, worse than the one of the Christian Bible.
Qurman scrolls shown us that the Hebrew text has been changed in few but significant points (main of them to react to the Christian claims).
Keep in mind that the old Hebrew wrote only the consonants, and it is enough a small piece of line to have a word to completely change and a sentence to change in full. (but this is an other topic).

However I dont say that in the written Hebrew text of psalm 110.1 the two words "YHWH" and Adonai were written in the same way (I cannot prove that), I just think that these two words were learned and known by memory both as "adonai": only in this case Mt 22:44 has sense,

The Protestants, who believe in the unbiblical and unhistorical "Sola Scriptura", shall now decide id the inspired text of Psalm 110:1 is the one in the 1006 AD Leningrad code (with two words "YHWH" and Adonai), or what Jesus and his peers knew by memory (with two "Adonai")

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I'm aware of the fact texts have a history and may show 'development' / adjustments / etc. based on theological priorities. And indeed, Sola Scripture is an illusion as soon as one realises that the interpretation of certain words may depend on extra-biblical literature and analysis. But I digress ..

Just this awareness alone is not sufficient to assume that YHWH was somehow inserted by zealous Jewish scribes after Yeshua's walk on earth; purely based on our current Greek text of Matthew of which we know it's a translation from Hebrew/Aramaic (based on comments by Papias of Hierapolis, Irenaeus of Lyons, Origen, Eusebius of Caesarea and Jerome) - simply because Matthew uses LXX quotations a lot, and we also know the LXX translation is not perfect. That would be speculation at minimum.

Reluctant Theologian said:

Coming back to this specific case of Psalm 110:1 and the question whether the Hebrew original at the time of Yeshua's life on earth contained YHWH or not; that is easy to settle: the Dead Sea Great Psalms Scroll (11QPsaa) from Qumran contains Psalm 110:1 which reads:

Hebrew: נְאֻם יְהוָה לַאדֹנִי שֵׁב לִימִינִי עַד אָשִׁית אֹיְבֶיךָ הֲדוֹם לְרַגְלֶיךָ
Transliteration: Ne'um YHWH la'adoni shev limini ad ashit oyvekha hadom leragleikha.

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As far as I know, our Psalm 110 is not present in Qumran, Dead Sea Great Psalms Scroll (11Q5).
see http://dssenglishbible.com/scroll11Q5.htm
also see the "The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible " by Martin G_ Abegg Jr_ & Peter Flint & Eugene Ulrich (I have at home) which states: "In 11QPsa Psalm 109 was possibly followed by Psalm 110 (which is now lost), and then by Psalms 113 through 118, ...."

However this is not the point. I dont say that in the written Hebrew text of psalm 110.1 the two words "YHWH" and Adonai were written in the same way (I cannot prove that), I just think that these two words were learned and known by memory both as "adonai": only in this case Mt 22:44 has sense,