That face of the deep

Akita Suggagaki said:

The Deep. Waters?

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- The Waters which were under the firmament [He called Seas]

There is the sea, great and broad, In which are swarms
without number, Animals both small and great.

Psalm 104:25 "There is [the sea], vast and spacious,
teeming with [creatures beyond number]".
The number of species that live in the ocean is unknown.

The deepest depths of the ocean remain virtually unexplored.
The final, mysterious frontier of our home planet.

"Basically, we know so little about [the deep sea] that we don't know
what we don't know. A lot of things are still being discovered.."

- Fountains/Springs/and Valleys in the Seas

Pro 8:28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely [the fountains of the deep].

Fountains of the great deep broken open/closed Gen 7:11,8:1-2

Job 38:16 Have you entered into [the springs of the sea]

or have you walked in [the recesses] (valleys) of the deep ?

-the [roots of the mountains] in the great deep

Jonah 2:5-6 The great deep engulfed me, weeds were wrapped
around my head. [I descended to the roots] of [the mountains]…

The Mariana Trench is much further below the sea,
than Mt. Everest stands above it.
-

- the sand for the boundaries of the seas,
[the ordinances of the moon] and of [the stars]

Jeremiah 5:22 ..the LORD.., which have placed the sand for the
bound of the sea by a perpetual decree, that it cannot pass it:
and though the waves thereof toss themselves, yet can they not
prevail; though they roar, yet can they not pass over it?

Jeremiah 31:35 "Thus saith the LORD , which giveth the sun for a
light by day, and [the ordinances of the moon] and of [the stars]
for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof
roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:

Psalm 104:9 You set a boundary that they may not pass over,
So that they will not return to cover the earth.

Proverbs 8:22-29 ..When he gave to [the sea his decree], that
the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed
[the foundations of the earth]:

The foundations of the earth are connected with this decree,
given to the sea/ocean. The rise and fall of the ocean is
caused by the moon's gravitational pull on the Earth.

Job 26:10 He hath compassed [the waters with bounds],
Until the day[sun] and night[moon] come to an end.

"Who enclosed the sea behind doors when it burst forth from the womb,
...Job 38:8-11 The womb, bars, bolt, and doors are used figuratively here.

- The Paths of the Seas

Psalm 8:6-8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea,
And whatsoever passeth through [the paths of the seas].

- The sand of the sea cannot be numbered

Hebrews 11:12 ..the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

Jeremiah 33:22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered,
neither the sand of the sea measured: ....." Gen 32:12

"the sand of the sea, which cannot be numbered for multitude."

-The horizon on the oceans

I was there when he set the heavens in place, when
he marked out [the horizon on the face of the deep],

"The true horizon surrounds the observer, and it is typically.
assumed to be [a circle], drawn on the surface of a perfectly.
spherical model of the relevant celestial body, i.e., a
small circle of the local osculating sphere."

-The boundary between day and night

Job 26:10 He created [the horizon] when [he separated the waters];
he set [the boundary between day and night].

God inscribed [a circle] on the surface of the earth/waters at
[the boundary of light and darkness]. This boundary between
light and darkness (day and night) is called the “terminator”.

Indication is given of the globular form of the earth.
x

-And "God called the dry land Earth"

Psalm 104:24 How many are your works, Lord! In wisdom you
made them all; the earth is full of your [creatures].
"From H7069; creation, that is, (concretely) creatures;"

-The circle of the Earth

Isaiah 40:22 God sits enthroned above [the circle of the earth].
The pull of gravity maintains its roughly spherical shape.
The bible says the Earth Is a circle and not flat.

The Bible does describe the “four corners of the Earth,” it uses
this expression to describe the expanse of directions available.

It does not matter to God what side of the earth you live on.
Psalm 139:7 Whither shall I go from [thy spirit]? Or whither
shall I flee from thy presence? Psalm 33:13 The LORD looketh
from heaven; he beholdeth all the sons of men. [Omnipresence]
xxx

“When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon
and the stars, which thou hast ordained; What is man, that thou
art mindful of him? …” (Psalm 8:1, 3-4).

"Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? Job 38:33
Canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?

God measures and calculates elements of His creation (Isaiah 40:12).

-Day unto day The heavens uttereth speech

Psalm 19:1-7 “The heavens declare the glory of God,
and the sky above proclaims his handiwork”

The music of the spheres or harmony of the spheres in the universe.
The Celestial bodies flying through space are emitting sound.
Those sounds are working together like a musical composition.

2 Day unto day uttereth speech, And night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language, Where their voice is not heard.

4Their [line](rope or musical string) is gone out through all the earth,
And their words to the end of the world.

[line] From H6960 (compare H6961); a cord (as connecting), especially
for measuring; figuratively a rule; also a rim, a musical string or
accord: - line. Compare H6978. Total KJV occurrences: 21




Romans 10:18: “But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their (musical note)
[sound] went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.”

[sound]From G5350; utterance, that is, a musical note
(vocal or instrumental): - sound. Total KJV occurrences: 2

The Vulgate renders Job 38:37 ‘who will reduce to silence the music of heaven?’

- In the universe He set a tabernacle for the sun

Psalm 19:4...In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,

5 Which [is as] a bridegroom coming out of his chamber,
and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.

-The circuit of the sun

6 His(the sun) going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit
unto the ends of it: And there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

"Its gravity holds the solar system together, keeping everything from
the biggest planets to the smallest bits of debris in orbit around it."

The sun has extremely important influences on our planet.
It drives weather, ocean currents, seasons, and climate,
and makes plant life possible through photosynthesis.

"The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to
his place where he arose. Figuratively, point of view by man.

Without the sun’s heat and light, life on Earth wouldn't exist.

The Sun rotates on its axis as it revolves around the galaxy.
It takes about 230 million years for the Sun to make one
complete trip around the Milky Way.

- The host of heaven cannot be numbered

Jeremiah 33:22 proclaimed "As the host of heaven cannot be numbered"

The total number of stars in the observable universe is unknown.
God in all his wisdom has named and numbered all the stars Isaiah 40:26.

"Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things ,
that bringeth out their host by number: [he calleth them all by names]"


- All stars are different from other stars

"There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon,
and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from
another star in glory 1 Corinthians 15:41.


There is no star, sun or moon, or plant that is exactly alike.
Similarly, it is also true that every snowflake, blade of grass,
and grain of sand is unique.

Psalm 136:9 The moon and stars to rule by night:
For his mercy endureth for ever.
x

-He hanged the earth on nothing

Job 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the
empty place, And hangeth the earth upon [nothing].

H1099- From H1097 and H4100; (as indefinite) nothing whatever:
- nothing. Total KJV occurrences: 1

The earths position, in relation to the size, distance from the sun and
moon, makes it [a good foundation place in the universe] to hang earth.

-The Earth Has days, Seasons and years

"And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven
to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs,
and for seasons, and for days, and years: Genesis 1:14 (KJV)

"He appointed the moon for seasons: The sun knoweth his going down"

The Hebrew calendar is a lunisolar calendar, meaning that months
are based on lunar months, but years are based on solar years.
"The weekly cycle, which runs concurrently with but independently of
the monthly and annual cycles. One of the Oracles of God Romans 3:2.

-Both the sun and moon play an active role on planet Earth.

Deuteronomy 33:14 For the precious fruits brought forth [by the sun],"

"and for the precious things put/thrust forth [by the moon]."

The moon plays an active role in the Earth’s ecosystem. It is
connected to Deu 33:13, The “watery depths” or the oceans.

-Constellations in the book of Job 38:31-32

God taunts Job:Could a mere human like himself loose Orions belt?

Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the
bands of Orion? Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season?
Or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons? Science shows God can.

Three constellations, Pleiades, Orion and Arcturus are known,
(the fourth, Mazzaroth, is still unknown to us). God show His
power over them, and controls there movements even today.


This was knowledge from God, given to Job, long before a telescope.

Semper-Fi said:

The sudden change in the fossil record from
the Age of Reptiles to the Age of Mammals.

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There were mammals pretty much as early as archosaurs (dinosaurs, pterosaurs, etc. The change was sudden in geologic terms, apparently the result of the Chixulub asteroid strike. All large land animals died out, including some large mammals. After the event, only smaller animals survived, and these were predominately mammals.

Semper-Fi said:

God taunts Job:Could a mere human like himself loose Orions belt?

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I saw a skeptic view on the Book of Job and he was refuting a lot of the science-related statements in Job by having the luxury of modern science. But if you place yourself in primitive man's shoes How did he know to write about the fountains of the deep or wind or any of the other science stuff that you've mentioned?

Laodicean60 said:

I saw a skeptic view on the Book of Job and he was refuting a lot of the science-related statements in Job by having the luxury of modern science. But if you place yourself in primitive man's shoes How did he know to write about the fountains of the deep or wind or any of the other science stuff that you've mentioned?

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In the ancient Middle East, people believed the Earth was under a dome above which was water, and below the Earth was water as well. The dark goddess Tiamat represented that sea and the chaos of early creation. The "fountains of the deep" referred to the waters below the Earth. Then scientists discovered thermal vents in the sea. Some people, looking for a way to shore up their faith, said "Well, the sea is deep, isn't it? How could primitive people know about that?"

Akita Suggagaki said:

the mystery of it all

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The Bible is literal and symbolic.

• Genesis 1:2 states: “The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.”

This is one reason people have trouble understanding Genesis chapter one. You have to look to see where God is working. The surface of the water was dark and God was not allowing light to pass though the atmosphere. When God said: "Let there be light" He changed the atmosphere so that the light could pass through to the surface of the water.

That is wonderful if you want to talk about the symbolism but we have to look at what God is doing here. We see this again on day four when again God is making changes in the "expanse of the sky". "God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky". Day four was one billion years ago so we can look at what science says: "One billion years ago, a slow, steady and silent revolution took place on our planet. Evolution was at hand, with simple microbial organisms slowly growing into more diverse complex lifeforms."

The Great Oxygen Event actually took place on day three 2 billion years ago when simple organisms began to produce oxygen.

This way we can get science to line up with what we read in our Bible. Otherwise no one actually cares what the length of a day is.

Laodicean60 said:

But if you place yourself in primitive man's shoes How did he know to write about the fountains of the deep or wind or any of the other science stuff that you've mentioned?

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Wisdom, knowledge and understanding is a part of creation. They say God used the Hebrew language to create the universe. Adam was assigned the task of naming the animals. We are told:

"Adam gave each species its Hebrew name.

But these weren't random names picked out of a hat, mind you. According to the Kabbalah, the name of every creation is its life-source. The Hebrew letters carry a G‑dly power, and, when put together in different formations, they give life wherever they are applied. Thus, all created things are directly affected by their Hebrew names, and the letters of which they are composed.

For those who say we should not study Kabbalah, that is true. We should not study Kabbalah until we have been a Christian for 40 years. We become elders after 40 years and not before. I did not get saved until my mid 20's so I was in my 60's before I was qualified. I am 72 now.

Semper-Fi said:

The bible does not say when Gods abode was made,

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Actually the very first letter in the Bible tells us that God wants to be a part of and dwell in ALL of His Creation. The letter B represents tent or tabernacle. Today B can represent any sort of dwelling. Just like C represents camel and today C can represent any sort of tranportation.

Laodicean60 said:

But if you place yourself in primitive man's shoes How did he know to write about the fountains of the deep or wind or any of the other science stuff that you've mentioned?

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2 Peter 1:21
"For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

God authored the Bible, not Man.

There was no requirement for the Scribes to completely understand what they were writing down.

Akita Suggagaki said:

Who has plunged into Tehom?

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We all have.

Here is an interesting quote...

"It is used to describe the primeval ocean and the post-creation waters of the earth."


Tehom does not automatically mean Earth's oceans. It can also mean the 'Primeval Ocean'...

"Found in many cultures and civilizations, the cosmic ocean exists before the creation of the Earth. From the primordial waters the Earth and the entire cosmos arose. The cosmic ocean represents or embodies chaos."


The above quote fits Genesis 1:2 perfectly. Oceans were not created until the Third Day.

Qubit said:

There was no requirement for the Scribes to completely understand what they were writing down.

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They are required to be 100% accurate. Actually Hebrew, like DNA is self correcting.

The Barbarian said:

In the ancient Middle East, people believed the Earth was under a dome above which was water, and below the Earth was water as well. The dark goddess Tiamat represented that sea and the chaos of early creation. The "fountains of the deep" referred to the waters below the Earth. Then scientists discovered thermal vents in the sea. Some people, looking for a way to shore up their faith, said "Well, the sea is deep, isn't it? How could primitive people know about that?"

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Speaking of the devil. I saw this video last night and she was talking about a body of water under the earth that is 3 times larger than our oceans combined. What a trip!

Laodicean60 said:

Speaking of the devil. I saw this video last night and she was talking about a body of water under the earth that is 3 times larger than our oceans combined. What a trip!

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Actually there's no ocean. It's OH ions chemically trapped in brucite. There's a continuous cycle of this, with hydrated crust being brought to the surface by tectonic processes and water being taken into the mantle by subduction. Near the surface, the OH is converted back to H2O. But there's no "ocean" under the crust, any more than a pile of copper sulfate is water. There's water bound up in it, but it's not liquid.

Akita Suggagaki said:

Tehom Genesis 1:2

Darkness over the face of the deep

So much debate over flat Earth, Sabbath, six day creation, young and old Earth. I think we pass right over an awesome concept here. The Deep. Waters? Yes. But more, ourselves, our existence, our lives and the mystery of it all. The abyss of God's love and mercy. We swim in it daily and there is no bottom. But there is spirit also ruach. How beautiful it all is.

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I think that's a wonderful idea; but it wouldn't be an accurate exegesis of the text.

The tehom, the abyss, is the primordial waters that in ancient near eastern culture represented chaos and disorder. The writer of Genesis 1 is borrowing culturally significant language easily recognizable to anyone who lived in that time and place.

In the cultural language of the ancient near east the idea of a primordial ocean is incredibly prevalent, and in the mythologies of Mesopotamia is Tiamat, a personified cosmic force representing chaos. In the Babylonian epic the Enuma Elish Tiamat is the primordial cosmic sea which gave rise to the gods, by her coupling with Abzu, the personification of fresh ground water, the gods came into existence. When the gods came into existence they waged violence against one another, and through their violence, their blood and dismembered bodies became the land, the mountains, and gave rise to animal life and ultimately human beings. This is only one example of the cosmic ocean or primordial ocean motif.

In the Bible, however, while the primordial ocean represents the disordered proto-universe, it lacks personification (quite deliberately the author of Genesis 1 divests personhood to natural things, like the sun, moon, and stars). Instead there is only one sublime force in the beginning, and that's God. God is already there in the beginning, when the earth was empty and waste and the dark waters of the deep abyss covered everything God is there, His Spirit or Ru'ach fluttering, hovering, moving upon the surface--God is there, and He is about to take action upon the primordial un-created universe. God's first act is to interupt the darkness, by creating light, "Let there be light", the act of creating light interupts the darkness, and now there is an order, a day and a night. The most fundamental order by which human beings comprehend our existence through the daily cycle. The author doesn't describe what this light is, because that's not the point: There is light, and now there is order, there is day and night, and we are introduced to the repeated refrain of the days of creation: "there was evening and there was morning, the first day".

After interupting the darkness--the primordial darkness of the un-created universe--creating order; God then interupts the primordial waters, creating an expanse, a separation, a habitable "bubble" in a sense in the midst of these waters. The waters below the expense are called "sea" and above the expanse, keeping the waters above at bay, a vault of some kind, the Hebrew word raqia, translated into Latin as firmamentum (from which we get the English word firmament) a solid something. An expanse with a firm exterior holding the upper waters apart from the lower waters, the habitable "bubble" or dome of some kind in which God will continue to organize, order, and fill with good things. This firm expanse of separation is called ha-shamayim, "the heavens" aka the sky/skies.

God takes the lower waters, again creating a separation, interupting them with giving rise to something dry (yabasha), calling it eretz, "land" "earth". The eretz is then made to no longer be tohu and bohu, empty and waste, but is now shaped, with form, and fertile with life as green vegetation springs from the dry land.

That's the first three days, of God interupting, dividing, separating, and making space. There is no space for God to fill with things to inhabit.

On the fourth day God inhabits day and night with the lights in the great expanse--the sun, the moon, and the stars. Things which God gives and creates to give order--"to rule"--the day and night in the heavens/sky.

On the fifth day God inhabits the heavens and the lower waters with living things, the things that fly in the air in the heavens and the things that swim in the seas.

On the sixth day God inhabits the now lush green dry earth with all the many things that walk, crawl, and creep upon the ground. And the capstone of this great creative endeavor, the reason for doing all this to begin with, God creates human beings, in the Divine Image and Likeness, to reflect God's own order and goodness in this good creation which He has made--to be the agents to rule over, to govern, the created order as God's caretakers of creation. Human beings will reflect the goodness of God through their love and care for creation, ruling over it with the order and purpose which God vested everything to have, and to continue to bear that immense beauty and goodness (merod tov, "much beauty" "much good" "exceedingly lovely").

God interupted the un-created universe in its darkness, formlessness, un-purposefulness which was without order, and then orders, organizes, fills it, gives space, creates habitation and inhabitants, creates beauty and loveliness, and creates caretakers who reflect His own beauty and goodness, His Image and Likeness, to maintain the beauty and goodness of creation.

The second creation story, while different in how it tells the story of creation (it's an entirely different story), carries similar themes. In the second story God, now called by His Sacred Name YHWH, begins by describing the barren earth and how man was created from it, and then God populates the dry earth with lush vegetation, creating a garden for man to inhabit and take care of. In that garden God populates it with all manners of creatures, which the man names, but the man needs a partner, his other half, and so from a part of the man God creates the woman. And the two, in partnership, will tend to the garden. However, the story of the garden will go on to become the story of the sundering of humanity's fall and separation from God, as the woman is tricked by the serpent to disobey God and the man follows, also violating God's commandment. Awakening in them something dark and grotesque, they see themselves as naked--they experience shame, and now they try to hide from God when before they had experienced perfect communion and fellowship and friendship with God.

We know how all this plays out afterward, as the unfolding biblical drama takes shape in its myriad and divinely inspired stories and recollection of events, in all the many different books which make up the Holy Bible.

As Christians, we understand that the displacement from the garden and the severing of humanity's relationship with God in the form of sin and death is the prevailing problem we see echoed over and over throughout the biblical texts, in the many stories of God's people and God's dealings with people. Even among God's chosen covenant people, through Abraham, Israel becomes a cycle of rebellion and redemption. With an ultimate redemption, not just for the Jewish people, but for all nations, and indeed for all creation ultimately playing out in Person, Life, and Work of Jesus Christ: the Divine Son of God made flesh, who breaks the chains of sin and death, undoing the power and tyranny of the devil who had robbed humanity by deceit of the good bounty of life and sold mankind into bondage over to death. All creation suffering under this same very tyranny, subjugated to death, and to seeming unending meaninglessness (c.f. Ecclesastes). That tyranny, that subjugation, that meaningless ness is broken, it is defeated, by Jesus Christ the Son of God, our Lord. Who having suffered death for our sakes, bearing our sin for our sakes, destroys these, and completely annhilates all the wicked power of the devil. Hell is in shambles by He who conquered it.

And now, in Christ, is the redemption for all men, the hope of eternal life, of resurrection, of all creation being restored and becoming what it was truly meant to be.

The love of God by which the universe came to be, the same love of God which has always sought fellowship with us, that very love by which He sent His only-begotten Son to die--and who having risen has overcome sin, death, hell, and the devil--is that love which He has always loved us, which He continues to love us, and which will, in the end, set all things to rights, and make all creation whole again. In this hope, says St. Paul, we were saved (Romans 8:24).

The depth and beauty of God's love isn't in the dark and deep abyss of Genesis 1:2, but in whole interuptive act of creation itself, and in God's own Self-giving of Himself and His endless pursuit of us to save us from the darkness which we ourselves gave ourselves over to through our rebellion of sin, to rescue us from the meaninglessness of death, and to draw all things, bring all things, into the good and just and loving hope and purpose for which all things were made--which is found in Jesus. For "all things were made by Him and for Him". In order that God will be all in all (1 Corinthians 15:28).

-CryptoLutheran

Akita Suggagaki said:

Then what is "the deep"?

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God's mystery and us with him is deep.

1 Corinthians 2:10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.