‘If We Don’t Take a Stand Now’ against Hostility, the Church Could Become ‘Voiceless,’ Pastor Warns

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iluvatar5150

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Lol, you didn’t read that rationalwiki list, did you?

Even if it bolstered your position the way I assume you think it did, a list of scientists who believe creationism is not a refutation of the claim that creationism isn’t science.
 
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Vambram

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Lol, you didn’t read that rationalwiki list, did you?

Even if it bolstered your position the way I assume you think it did, a list of scientists who believe creationism is not a refutation of the claim that creationism isn’t science.
I did read both websites that I listed.
Even though the wiki site came from an evolutionists point of view, it still acknowledged that there's a significant lists of actual scientists who are also creationists.

The evolutionists choose to believe in macro-evolution. On the other hand, I choose to believe God Himself, THE Creator, created the world, the Heavens, and all the universe as described in the Scriptures.
The theory of evolution is relatively new theory as compared to what is in the Bible where the Creation is described.
 
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Hans Blaster

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I did read both websites that I listed.
Even though the wiki site came from an evolutionists point of view, it still acknowledged that there's a significant lists of actual scientists who are also creationists.
The lists are a *tiny* fraction of the scientists in those fields. Tiny.
The evolutionists choose to believe in macro-evolution. On the other hand, I choose to believe God Himself, THE Creator, created the world, the Heavens, and all the universe as described in the Scriptures.
The theory of evolution is relatively new theory as compared to what is in the Bible where the Creation is described.
Evolution is not a matter of belief and plenty of Christians accept evolution.
 
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7thKeeper

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The lists are a *tiny* fraction of the scientists in those fields. Tiny.
And if I remember that list correctly, most of the people on the list are from non-related fields as well.
Evolution is not a matter of belief and plenty of Christians accept evolution.
It's the official stance of the Catholic church that it's real too. That's already a big chunk of Christians.
 
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Hans Blaster

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And if I remember that list correctly, most of the people on the list are from non-related fields as well.
Yep.
It's the official stance of the Catholic church that it's real too. That's already a big chunk of Christians.
Big but shrinking in this country. (Yo!)
 
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Shemiyah

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I wonder if some people forget about the conscience. For example, no one needs to read the bible to know that they should treat their fellow man with mutual respect. This is natural law. It is common to all men to know they should do that. Whether they do it or not is another matter, and another discussion. Some ignore their conscience and become more and more disrespectful of others, and even worse, some justify their disrespect in the name of their God, who made man in His image. Should it be that those who profess to know God would be the most highly respectful human beings that ever walked the face of the earth? Whoever knows him should represent him, for they bear his image.

By the way, aren't believers supposed to rejoice to the extent they suffer (1Pet 4:13), and leap for joy when men spitefully use them (Luke 6:22-23)? Why then do "believers" take up arms to defend themselves? (Mt 26:52). Wouldn't a true believer let evil run its course, just like their savior who recieved all manner of evil against himself? Didn't he promise persecution along with eternal life (Mk 10:29). Why then such self-defense? Why such worry and why such calls to make change? Self is always concerned about how it is treated. But he commanded them to love others and one another, and to deny theirSelf (John 13:34-35 and Lk 9:23). He even commanded them to love their enemy - do good to those who hurt you. For what credit is it to you when you love those who love you? Anyway, just some thoughts....
 
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KCfromNC

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Intolerance towards specific people distinct from everyone else is all this is.
Yes, I know the GOP culture wars try to capitalize on and spread intolerance. That's one reason why I mentioned that schools shouldn't be a party to it.
 
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Neogaia777

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I wonder if some people forget about the conscience. For example, no one needs to read the bible to know that they should treat their fellow man with mutual respect. This is natural law. It is common to all men to know they should do that. Whether they do it or not is another matter, and another discussion. Some ignore their conscience and become more and more disrespectful of others, and even worse, some justify their disrespect in the name of their God, who made man in His image. Should it be that those who profess to know God would be the most highly respectful human beings that ever walked the face of the earth? Whoever knows him should represent him, for they bear his image.

By the way, aren't believers supposed to rejoice to the extent they suffer (1Pet 4:13), and leap for joy when men spitefully use them (Luke 6:22-23)? Why then do "believers" take up arms to defend themselves? (Mt 26:52). Wouldn't a true believer let evil run its course, just like their savior who recieved all manner of evil against himself? Didn't he promise persecution along with eternal life (Mk 10:29). Why then such self-defense? Why such worry and why such calls to make change? Self is always concerned about how it is treated. But he commanded them to love others and one another, and to deny theirSelf (John 13:34-35 and Lk 9:23). He even commanded them to love their enemy - do good to those who hurt you. For what credit is it to you when you love those who love you? Anyway, just some thoughts....
This one borders on "winner", so I wasn't quite sure what reaction to give it?

Sometimes all the so-called people of God are the very, very best at "sinning against their own conscience", and not at all even in any way ever feeling guilty about it, etc.

And I also think there is a very, very easy answer that is all too very self-evident in all of this that most religious people will just flat-out deny and will all-to-easily very soon just simply forget, etc.

God Bless.
 
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KCfromNC

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This is your intolerance. You will not accept that you are infringing on Christian parents religious freedom.

Presenting reality that disagrees with people's opinions isn't infringing on anyone's religious freedom.

Even back in the 70's when sex Ed was taught, it was focused on biological realities. There was no hint of approval of sex outside of marriage or not. Rather, the biological understanding of hetero-sexual sex.

Goes back to my point about the rhetoric about "infringing on Christian parents religious freedom" is actually just mentioning the fact that gay people exist.
It clearly focused on that because of PREGNANCY.

Since then we've seen the benefits of comprehensive sex ed in reducing unwanted pregnancies. But hey, since that research goes against what conservatives wished were true, using that information to improve education is "infringing on Christian parents religious freedom".

It is interesting how none of the examples "infringing on Christian parents religious freedom" has anything to do with the practice or even belief of the central tenets of Christianity - you know Jesus, going to church, that sort of thing. It's all complaints about not having the schools indoctrinate students in a very particular set of conservative culture war issues.
 
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KCfromNC

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It is intolerance any way you slice it.
Intolerance of what, specifically? Getting back to what my post actually said rather than this "but but but whatabout" diversion from it, "intolerance" of messaging looking to deny the fact that gay people exist isn't really a bad thing. Where "intolerance" in quotes is actually just the majority of people disagreeing with a minority group's view on a Fox News culture war issue.
It's the whole paradox of tolerance thing - Paradox of tolerance - Wikipedia
 
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KCfromNC

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Why would I do that? It would be like saying having red hair is good but having small feet is bad. Anorexia and gender disphoria are conditions. They are morally neutral. Either one can be taught about in school without violating anyone's freedom of religion.
Is this the thread to complain that schools are teaching my kids it is OK to be left handed despite the sinister implications is has towards the freedom of religion? Or does pointing out how trivial last century culture war issues looks through a better informed modern lens make current culture war issues look similarly trivial?
 
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Neogaia777

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All this amounts to is "You're going too far" and "You're not going far enough", and all I am saying is that there has to be somewhere that we can settle on for now, but that also might have to be altered or changed very soon or very quickly along.the way, that we can settle on for now, that respects and acknowledges and includes all, and everyone and everybody, etc.

Which takes me back to a few of my posts earlier about us still trying to work this out, and if we don't figure it out soon, the destruction or nightmare it might bring, etc.

Posts #49, and #50 for reference.

Because no one seems to be wanting to do that right now currently, etc.

It's literally trench warfare on both sides right now, and I fear everyone is going to soon suffer bigtime for it, etc.

God Bless.
 
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KCfromNC

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No. My children are taught it is not approved of God.......
And which public schools are saying it is approved of by the Christian God? None of them, as far as I know. If they did, it would be illegal.

See, this is why people think that all of the handwaving in threads like this is to hide what the real goal is - a push to have public schools indoctrinate other people's children in a very specific conservative political opinion. Simple silence on the question is not enough, so the only thing left would be actual endorsement of those religious views.
 
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Neogaia777

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All this amounts to is "You're going too far" and "You're not going far enough", and all I am saying is that there has to be somewhere that we can settle on for now, but that also might have to be altered or changed very soon or very quickly along.the way, that we can settle on for now, that respects and acknowledges and includes all, and everyone and everybody, etc.

Which takes me back to a few of my posts earlier about us still trying to work this out, and if we don't figure it out soon, the destruction or nightmare it might bring, etc.

Posts #49, and #50 for reference.

Because no one seems to be wanting to do that right now currently, etc.

It's literally trench warfare on both sides right now, and I fear everyone is going to soon suffer bigtime for it, etc.

God Bless.
And just for the record, I don't claim to the answers to this, etc.

And right now, I am just having a hard enough time myself keeping up with the current times sometimes, and I can't imagine what it's like for the younger crowds, or our children/young people right now, as all my children are grown, etc.

Anyway, enough of that from me.

God Bless.
 
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KCfromNC

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I have asked not to teach ethics and perspectives which are against religion.
What if the perspectives of a particular religion are factually incorrect?

What if two religions have diametrically opposed views on a particular bit of ethics - say, one believes people shouldn't be selfish in acquiring material possessions and another believes in something like people are rewarded with monetary success?

How about religions which have preached about the inferiority of other races or religions? Or the subservience of a particular gender to the other? How about the inherent superiority of certain children due to the status of their birth?

How about a religion which has supported the inherent superiority of monarchs? Can we not teach about our democratic republic in that case, since it would be a perspective against religion?

I get it, vague platitudes about but but but schools shouldn't teach that sound great, especially when they happen to be teaching reality which makes it harder to sell one's religion. But there's simply no way for this sort of platitude to turn into anything actionable without ending up being favoritism towards one particular religious viewpoint. Hence the current compromise of simply ignoring religion entirely and leaving it to individual families to figure out in the comfort of their own homes or churches.
 
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iluvatar5150

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And if I remember that list correctly, most of the people on the list are from non-related fields as well.
The rationalwiki link provided earlier that listed all of those scientists also did a takedown of their supposed credentials. Assuming it’s accurate, they’re far weaker than I even expected.
 
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KCfromNC

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The rationalwiki link provided earlier that listed all of those scientists also did a takedown of their supposed credentials. Assuming it’s accurate, they’re far weaker than I even expected.
What do you mean - when you want to learn about cutting edge genetics research you don't go to a random dentist for that information?
 
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Neogaia777

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What if the perspectives of a particular religion are factually incorrect?

What if two religions have diametrically opposed views on a particular bit of ethics - say, one believes people shouldn't be selfish in acquiring material possessions and another believes in something like people are rewarded with monetary success?

How about religions which have preached about the inferiority of other races or religions? Or the subservience of a particular gender to the other? How about the inherent superiority of certain children due to the status of their birth?

How about a religion which has supported the inherent superiority of monarchs? Can we not teach about our democratic republic in that case, since it would be a perspective against religion?

I get it, vague platitudes about but but but schools shouldn't teach that sound great, especially when they happen to be teaching reality which makes it harder to sell one's religion. But there's simply now way for this sort of platitude to turn into anything actionable without ending up being favoritism towards one particular religious viewpoint. Hence the current compromise of simply ignoring religion entirely and leaving it to individual families to figure out in the comfort of their own homes or churches.
All very, very good points, and it gives me something to think about for sure, etc.

In Christianity, we know that under the Old Covenant, homosexuality, and many, many other things, are condemned, etc, but we're also not under that Covenant anymore, and everything, and I mean everything (even God in the OT) changed with Jesus Christ, etc, and the Old Covenant was done away with by Christ, etc. And we also know that Paul had some pretty condemning words to say about homosexuality also, etc. But I also don't know that Jesus ever directly spoke against it and/or tried to ever condemn it specifically, etc?

So then, I guess the real question is, were there times when some of the followers of Jesus were not speaking under direct inspiration of God the Holy Spirit, but were sometimes speaking maybe in response to what was going on and/or was happening in their own times, or from their own originality, etc?

I Guess it's something to think about either way, etc?

God Bless.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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psst…

I’m a Christian, too.

I’m just not a creationist.


What’s not okay is what creationists typically try to imply when they say it, i.e. that its validity is tenuous or unproven.

The scientific definition of the word “theory” is not the same as the colloquial definition that creationists often try to conflate it with, which is closer to what the word “hypothesis” means. It’s not unfair or unkind to point out this error.

The problem is that you don’t understand your own arguments and are taking offense at people pointing out the flaws in them. Nobody is “going against” Christians.

It probably would be more conducive to say that not many Left leaning people are "going against" Christians or Christianity. That way, we more accurately affirm the statistical spread, indicating that we do understand there are outliers in society ................. who actually do "go against" Christians.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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I believe my oposition is to your concern of "inclusion". That is the problem for me. Kids have for millennia teased each other over all kinds of differences. To discipline how they treat another student is the usual response in these things.
An attitude of mind your own business. Don't be rude, disrespectful, to your class mates.
Inclusion, is the promotion of.
There is the problem. You don't need to "promote" Homosexualty to children. Nor censor a Christian parent and the scritptural upbringing concerning these things for their kids. If I were aware of my child being abusive to a classmate having two daddy's, I would get the message accross the child had no more control over that than my child has over how I behave. How would they feel if it were me....It is unchristian TO TEASE ETC.
Non inclusive...
A child comes from a home whose parents are drug addicts. I feel for that Chi;d, but I do not want my daughter to have an "inclusive" relationship with that child, that my child is frequently at her house, stay the night etc.
Inclusive is the promotion of acceptance of the lifestyle as ok...
Training, discipline in Christian ethics instead.
But kindness and respect and compassion towards others instead.

Inclusion and promotion (despite having the potential to have a degree of overlap) aren't the same thing.

Nobody here is suggesting that teachers should be "promoting homosexuality" to students.

Stopping short of overt bullying doesn't mean exclusion is any less in the realm of "make people feel like second class citizens".


For instance, if elementary students are doing a show & tell about their vacation. And every student with heterosexual parents is allowed to get up and show a picture of their family at Disneyworld and talk about all the fun rides their parents took them on, but one student isn't allowed to get up and show the same pictures and talk about the same stuff (because their mom is married to another woman). That's not other students bullying, nobody's name calling or punching...however that still instills the notion that their family is "second class"

With regards to the higher grades. Having certain content structured around exclusively hetero scenarios can do the same.

For instance, let's say there's a 17 year old 11th grader who's gay. During sex ed, only hetero-specific topics are covered for things like safe sex and protective measures. Even if nobody is engaging in overt "gay-bashing", it's still ostracizing (and actually doing that student a disservice as well as when it comes the differing risks associated for each group).

Simply talking about something isn't necessarily promotion.



Hypothetical. Pretend that there was no constitutional restriction pertaining to religion in schools.

Now, imagine if during school, everyone who was Hindu, Jewish, or Muslim (teachers and students) were able to freely discuss their respective religions... but since Christians made up a minority in the hypothetical school, they weren't allowed to do the same. They weren't being actively bullied for it or name-called, they were just relegated to having to keep it to themselves and deal with the fact that the teacher talked about everyone else's situation except their own. And when Christians protested this because they wanted some inclusion, all of the Hindu, Jewish, and Muslim parents said "we don't want that to be discussed, it should be up to us parents to decide whether or not we want our children to hear about Christianity".

For you, as a Christian, I'd imagine that probably wouldn't sit well with you, correct?
 
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