Works, The Law, and Works of the Law

Yahudim said:

My dear sibling, I pray that you will consider my words carefully. It took me a very long time to get to the point where I felt I understood, to a great degree, the subtleties of scripture and context of the same. Guess what. All that was turned on it's head and recently.

While much of what I had learned was useful, what has recently been imparted to me, upon repeated resistance, when once considered in sincerity, turned much of my former understanding on it's head. Many and frightful are the deceptions by unseen powers and principalities. For once uncovered, the breadth and depth their deceptions, cloaked in the mantle of 'righteousness' and academic consensus, starkly present as deceptions nonetheless. Deceptions which permeated even the seemingly plainest of our Father's truths and promises.

It is no secret that scripture has been tainted in the form scribal error and misconstrued cultural and philosophical context, which in turn affects our comprehension of even life and death circumstance.

The ravages of evil prevarications, time and the bad acts by the hands of men are equally devastating. Some deceptions have merely been 'correction' based in dogma that nonetheless proves dystopic by the well intended and equal in import to the most vile evil. So intentioned or innocent in motive notwithstanding, the net result is to still leave the ardent and true student of the Word with false impressions and dangerous perils to be blindly navigated. Yes, we are guided by the Spirit, but only when our internal and incessant dialog is forcefully suppressed.

Yet throughout all of the abuses of the former and present day custodians of His Holy Script, there is yet those to which the truth of these matters have been revealed. You should be counted among them. But it is a journey and not a destination.

So I pray you would understand that we are meant to love, trust and learn from our brethren. Likewise, I would make an humble request of you:

Please consider the service @HARK! and @daq would offer and seriously meditate on these matters. For I once believed as you do, but through their assistance, I have come to understand a great many matters once and recently held close, to be based on manifold errors of myself and our forebears, due to an incomplete or outright faulty recognition of its true form and context.

Please know that we all are praying for all these members and all these matters, for they are all dear to the heart of the Father. Please allow the matters of contention, your deepest and sincerest consideration. For theirs is a gift offered in His love and should be received in a like manner.

Shalom, shalom...

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HARK! said:

(CLV) Mt 23:23
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you are taking tithes from the mint and the dill and the cumin, and -°leave the weightier matters of the law, judging and mercy and faith (πιστιν). Now these it was binding for you to do, and not leave those.

There's that word again. See Post #16.



Definition of righteous

1 : acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin

Definition of RIGHTEOUS

acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin; morally right or justifiable; arising from an outraged sense of justice or morality… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

There is no word for faith in Ancient Hebrew. It's an abstract concept that comes out of Greek Philosophy, the minds of men.

The word that is often mistranslated as "faith" (אמונה) also doesn't appear in Deuteronomy 30:11-20. That passage is about hearing and obeying.

Amunah can be better translated as standing firm, as in fidelity.

That said, obedience is an act of fidelity.

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Soyeong said:

In your own words, where do you disagree with what I said and why?

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Soyeong said:

While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was counted as righteous, it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he was declared righteous was also expressed by being an obeyer of God, but he did not earn his righteousness as the result of his obedience (Romans 4:1-5). In James 2:21-24, it quotes Genesis 15:6 to support saying that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, that his faith was active along with his works, and faith completed his works, so he was justified by his works so far as they were expressing his faith, but not insofar as they were earning a wage.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Messiah began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Torah was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, which is in accordance with him being sent as the promised seed to bless us by turning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26), which is the Gospel that was made known in advance to Abraham in accordance with the promise (Galatians 3:8), and which he spread to Gentiles in Haran in accordance with the promise (Genesis 12:1-5).

In Genesis 18:19, God knew Abraham that he would teach his children and those of his household to walk in God's way by doing righteousness and justice that the Lord may bring to him all that He has promised. In Genesis 26:4-5, God will multiply Abraham's children as the stars in the heaven, to his children He will give all of these lands, and through his children all of the nations of the earth will be blessed because Abraham heard God's voice and guarded His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws. In Deuteronomy 30:16, if the children of Abraham will love God with all of their heart by walking in His way in obedience to His commandments, statutes, and laws, then they will live and multiply and God will bless them in the land that they go to posses. So the promise was made to Abraham and brought about because he walked in God's way in obedience to the Torah, he taught his children and those of his household to do that in accordance with spreading the Gospel of the Kingdom, and because they walked in God's way in obedience in obedience to the Torah.

In Psalms 119:1-3, the Torah is how the children of Abraham know how to be blessed by walking in God's way, and in John 8:39, Messiah said that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doing the same works as him, so the way that the children of Abraham are multiplied and are a blessing to the nations in accordance with inheriting the promise through faith is by turning the nations from their wickedness and teaching them to do the same works as Abraham by walking in God's way in obedience to the Torah, which is spreading the Gospel of the Kingdom.

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Yahudim said:

Rather than selecting a post to critique, please do me the service of detailing for me the overarching issue to which you disagree and as you see it. From there, perhaps we should discuss the contextual environments, as we understand them; this for firm footing, so to speak, and then proceed from there. Is that agreeable?

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Soyeong said:

It is not clear to me what motived you to write your first post to me, so we can start by discussing that.

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Yahudim said:

So sorry if I wasn't clear. Seems like you might enjoy debate more than discussion. That's fine with me. It's just not something I enjoy. In my mind, debate is about winning and losing. Discussion is about sharing. I prefer the latter.

I don't wish to quibble about this word or that. I want to know, in a general sense, how you felt @HARK! and @daq understanding differs from your understanding of scripture and the context in which it was composed. I wanted to know how you understand the totality of the environment in which these letters were written.

I enjoy establishing context so as to better understand what the writers of the renewed covenant meant. However, if you don't want to explain your understanding of the relevant context, that's fine too. Perhaps when you are ready, you'll share.

Shalom

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HARK! said:

Righteousness is in fact defined in the Torah; and it matches the Webster's definition:

(CLV) Dt 6:25
So it shall come to be righteousness for us when we observe to do all this instruction before Yahweh our Elohim, just as He had enjoined on us.


Maybe you can explain how obedience to the Torah is a subset of holding fast to the Torah.

If one is obedient to the Torah; one will hold fast to the Torah.

If one is holding fast to the Torah; one will be obedient to the Torah.

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Soyeong said:

I'm fine with discussing, I'm just not clear on the specifics of what you want do discuss.

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1. Why was Adam created?
2. Why was Adam made from dirt?
3. Why was Chavah (Eve) created from Adams rib?
4. Did YHVH have a covenant with Adam and Eve?
5. What were the terms of that covenant?
6. Did Adam and Eve have to be obedient to that covenant?
7. What was the consequence of disobedience to that covenant?