Understanding the Trinity

[Occams Barber]

Understanding the Trinity

As an atheist one of the many things I find confusing about Christianity is the concept of the Trinity;

God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit.​

Part of the problem is understanding the concept of having three ‘God’ entities while at the same time describing them as a single entity.

As an outsider it also seems to me that each of the components of the Trinity would have a specific function or purpose. Is this the case? If not, why have three components?

The most confusing component of the Trinity is the Holy Spirit. Although it’s part of the Trinity it appears to be the least mentioned and the vaguest (to me) part of the Trinity. Although I can more or less understand the God-the-Father/God-the-Son concepts, I have trouble understanding the idea of the Holy Spirit, what it is and where it fits in.



A Request

After more than a decade on CF I’ve found that Christians have a habit of using impenetrable Christian jargon when trying to explain Christian concepts. As a non-Christian much of this jargon can be difficult to follow.

How you respond is up to you however sticking to plain English would help.



OB

 

[Qubit]

God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Hi @Occams Barber . I have found that the above description of the Trinity is often confusing to those that are not familiar with the concept. The reason for this has to do with the way the average person understands what a 'Son' is.

I was raised on the King James Bible, and was taught that the Trinity is:

• Father
• Word
• Holy Ghost (Holy Spirit)

Note that the Son is referred to as the Word in this verse...

1 John 5:7 (King James Bible)
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

Because of an issue with the above verse (Johannine Comma) being added by a scribe later, many newer translations omit it...

"It may first be noted that the words "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" (KJ) found in older translations at 1 John 5:7 are thought by some to be spurious additions to the original text."

Johannine Comma - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

However, the concept is solid and will help you understand the Trinity quite easily. It all has to do with the meaning of 'Word' and 'Son'.

The Bible teaches that we are Tripartite beings. In other words, we are made of three components:

• Body
• Soul
• Spirit

You may already be familiar with the above. The Trinity is practically synonymous with this Tripartite description with only minor differences.

Thus, if Father Abraham was standing before you, you would notice two things:

• Abraham is a Father, and Abraham has a Body. Thus, Father and Body are synonymous. That is our first match.

Next you would notice that Abraham has a Spirit. Thus, we have our second match:

• Abraham has a Spirit, which is synonymous with the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit.

What confuses everyone is that very few people understand what a Soul is. There are all kinds of definitions out there, but none are tangible and quantifiable. Simply put, the Soul of a living organism is synonymous with what we now call a Genome. <-- That is the Key to understanding the Trinity!

We now have our third match:

• Abraham has a Genome (Letters of DNA), which is synonymous with the Word of God and the Soul.

Scripture teaches that Word (DNA) is what creates flesh...

John 1:14
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

Science has confirmed this fact thousands of years later. The Word is also 'Seed'...

Luke 8:11
"Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God."

When we put it all together, we have:

• Father = Body
• Word = Soul/Genome/Seed/DNA
• Holy Ghost = Spirit

Long story short, any living organism that has a Genome is a Trinity. You are a Trinity. I am a Trinity. Abraham is a Trinity. It is in practically all life out there.

And now that you know that the Word of God is practically the same as the Soul, DNA, Genome, Seed, etc., you are now ready to understand what the Son means...

Galatians 3:16
"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."

Jesus is the Son. Jesus represents the Seed. Jesus represents the Word. Where is the Son located?

John 1:18
"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

The Son/Seed/Soul/Word/DNA is in the bosom of the Father. Do you see it yet? Go back to the Father Abraham example:

• Father = Body
• Word = Soul/Genome/Seed/DNA
• Holy Ghost = Spirit

Abraham is a picture of the Father in Heaven. He is a Tripartite Being, yet he is One. Again, most folks do not understand that when Jesus goes back to Heaven, he 'joins' with the Father to become One being sitting on the Throne...

Revelation 4:2
"And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."

The Trinity is sitting there as One being! Where is Jesus? Again, Jesus is the Word, the Soul the DNA, the Blood. All of that is symbolized by the Slain Lamb...

Revelation 5:6
"And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth."

Christians assume that the Lamb is the Son. Not so! Jesus did not have 'seven eyes'. There is ONE Throne, not two.

The Lamb represents the Soul of the Father. The Lamb comes out of the loins of the Father.

Here is the concept...

Hebrews 7:5
"And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham"

The Sons (i.e., Grandsons) are in the loins of Abraham. They are a part of his DNA. They are separate, yet they are One.

Here it is again...

Hebrews 7:9-10
"And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him."

The Son (Levi) is in the loins of the Father (Abraham). They are separate, yet they are One.

Thus, the ultimate Key to understanding the Trinity is to realize that the Son is in the bosom of the Father, just as the Seed is in the Father, just as DNA is in the Father, just as the Soul is in the Father, just as the Word is in the Father.

That brings us to the Logos...

John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

The Son is the Word that is with God separately, but at the same time, the Word *is* God.

The Son is in Abraham as the Seed, yet the Seed can be birthed into a Son. They are One, yet they are Three depending on context.

Anyhow, let me know if you have any questions.

 

[Occams Barber]

Hi @Occams Barber . I have found that the above description of the Trinity is often confusing to those that are not familiar with the concept. The reason for this has to do with the way the average person understands what a 'Son' is.

I was raised on the King James Bible, and was taught that the Trinity is:

• Father
• Word
• Holy Ghost (Holy Spirit)

Note that the Son is referred to as the Word in this verse...

1 John 5:7 (King James Bible)
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

Because of an issue with the above verse (Johannine Comma) being added by a scribe later, many newer translations omit it...

"It may first be noted that the words "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" (KJ) found in older translations at 1 John 5:7 are thought by some to be spurious additions to the original text."

Johannine Comma - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

However, the concept is solid and will help you understand the Trinity quite easily. It all has to do with the meaning of 'Word' and 'Son'.

The Bible teaches that we are Tripartite beings. In other words, we are made of three components:

• Body
• Soul
• Spirit

You may already be familiar with the above. The Trinity is practically synonymous with this Tripartite description with only minor differences.

Thus, if Father Abraham was standing before you, you would notice two things:

• Abraham is a Father, and Abraham has a Body. Thus, Father and Body are synonymous. That is our first match.

Next you would notice that Abraham has a Spirit. Thus, we have our second match:

• Abraham has a Spirit, which is synonymous with the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit.

What confuses everyone is that very few people understand what a Soul is. There are all kinds of definitions out there, but none are tangible and quantifiable. Simply put, the Soul of a living organism is synonymous with what we now call a Genome. <-- That is the Key to understanding the Trinity!

We now have our third match:

• Abraham has a Genome (Letters of DNA), which is synonymous with the Word of God and the Soul.

Scripture teaches that Word (DNA) is what creates flesh...

John 1:14
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

Science has confirmed this fact thousands of years later. The Word is also 'Seed'...

Luke 8:11
"Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God."

When we put it all together, we have:

• Father = Body
• Word = Soul/Genome/Seed/DNA
• Holy Ghost = Spirit

Long story short, any living organism that has a Genome is a Trinity. You are a Trinity. I am a Trinity. Abraham is a Trinity. It is in practically all life out there.

And now that you know that the Word of God is practically the same as the Soul, DNA, Genome, Seed, etc., you are now ready to understand what the Son means...

Galatians 3:16
"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."

Jesus is the Son. Jesus represents the Seed. Jesus represents the Word. Where is the Son located?

John 1:18
"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

The Son/Seed/Soul/Word/DNA is in the bosom of the Father. Do you see it yet? Go back to the Father Abraham example:

• Father = Body
• Word = Soul/Genome/Seed/DNA
• Holy Ghost = Spirit

Abraham is a picture of the Father in Heaven. He is a Tripartite Being, yet he is One. Again, most folks do not understand that when Jesus goes back to Heaven, he 'joins' with the Father to become One being sitting on the Throne...

Revelation 4:2
"And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."

The Trinity is sitting there as One being! Where is Jesus? Again, Jesus is the Word, the Soul the DNA, the Blood. All of that is symbolized by the Slain Lamb...

Revelation 5:6
"And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth."

Christians assume that the Lamb is the Son. Not so! Jesus did not have 'seven eyes'. There is ONE Throne, not two.

The Lamb represents the Soul of the Father. The Lamb comes out of the loins of the Father.

Here is the concept...

Hebrews 7:5
"And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham"

The Sons (i.e., Grandsons) are in the loins of Abraham. They are a part of his DNA. They are separate, yet they are One.

Here it is again...

Hebrews 7:9-10
"And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him."

The Son (Levi) is in the loins of the Father (Abraham). They are separate, yet they are One.

Thus, the ultimate Key to understanding the Trinity is to realize that the Son is in the bosom of the Father, just as the Seed is in the Father, just as DNA is in the Father, just as the Soul is in the Father, just as the Word is in the Father.

That brings us to the Logos...

John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

The Son is the Word that is with God separately, but at the same time, the Word *is* God.

The Son is in Abraham as the Seed, yet the Seed can be birthed into a Son. They are One, yet they are Three depending on context.

Anyhow, let me know if you have any questions.

I appreciate the effort but your explanation has left me even more confused.

Part of the problem is its waaaay too long, unnecessarily complex, and confusing. It's also full of the Christian jargon I mentioned in the OP.

OB

 

[Qubit]

Although I can more or less understand the God-the-Father/God-the-Son concepts, I have trouble understanding the idea of the Holy Spirit, what it is and where it fits in.

All life has the Spirit of God in it. Spirit is the Electromagnetism that makes something come to life or be alive. Sometimes the Bible calls it 'quicken'...

1 Peter 3:18
"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit"

Jesus died and the Spirit left his Body...

John 19:30
"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

Jesus was brought back to life when he was 'quickened'. There are other examples...

Genesis 25:8
"Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people."

See that? The Holy Ghost is in all life. When folks get Baptized, it is a 'renewal'.

When God formed Man, he created a Genome first from the 'Dust' of the ground. Remember, the Soul is the Genome. God then 'quickened' the Soul/Genome and made it come alive...

Genesis 2:7
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

Thus, Adam was a 'Living Soul' (Genome + Spirit). Now all he needs is a Body to complete the Tripartite Being. That is why he was 'naked'. It means he was not 'clothed' with a Tabernacle Body' yet...

2 Corinthians 5:4
"For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life."

Body, Soul, Spirit = Trinity

 

[Qubit]

I appreciate the effort but your explanation has left me even more confused.

Part of the problem is its waaaay too long, unnecessarily complex, and confusing. It's also full of the Christian jargon I mentioned in the OP.

OB

Sorry. Looks like I am not helping. I will go ahead leave this thread. Take care.

 

[Occams Barber]

Sorry. Looks like I am not helping. I will go ahead leave this thread. Take care.

Thanks for trying.

OB

 

[St_Worm2]

Hello @Occams Barber, I don't know if this will help or not, but I typically describe God (and our Trinitarian Godhead) as "One Divine Being who exists both from and to everlasting as three Divine Persons".

Just to be clear, we Christians have just as much trouble wrapping our minds around this concept as you do, because there is nothing else like it in our realm or experience. We, in fact, officially refer to the Trinitarian nature of the Godhead as a Biblical "mystery" because, while we cannot explain how God (or any being) can exist in this way (again as One Divine 'Being' eternally existing as Three Divine 'Persons' or 'Individuals') we believe that it is true, nevertheless, because the Bible tells us and shows us that it is.

So, the church created the doctrine of the Trinity to help circumscribe and safeguard the truth that the Bible teaches us about the Trinitarian nature of God, NOT to try to explain it to us (because that is FAR beyond any of us, at least for now/on this side of the grave).

I hope that helps!

--David
p.s. - there are a number of Trinitarian analogies out there that can be helpful, but they all fall short of even helping us properly understand the doctrine of the Trinity, much less the nature of the Godhead itself. So, I'll leave you a short/funny little video about this (from our friends at Lutheran Satire) below. BTW, the most common Trinitarian "analogy" is water, which exists in three forms, liquid, ice and vapor, and I think the most accurate analogy is the one about the three lit candles sitting on the mantle, IOW, three candles, one light, but again, these kinds of things always end up being just as confusing as they are helpful .. as the video below will seek to show you in a humorous way. Enjoy

 

[St_Worm2]

Perhaps this graphic will help a bit too.

 

[Occams Barber]

First of all thank you for an honest and direct answer without the usual Christian theobabble.

Hello @Occams Barber, I don't know if this will help or not, but I typically describe God (and our Trinitarian Godhead) as "One Divine Being who exists both from and to everlasting as three Divine Persons".

Your description of the Trinitarian Godhead is more or less the same description I used. What is missing is the why. Why is God broken up into three bits and why is it (God) actually not three bits?

Just to be clear, we Christians have just as much trouble wrapping our minds around this concept as you do, because there is nothing else like it in our realm or experience. We, in fact, officially refer to the Trinitarian nature of the Godhead as a Biblical "mystery" because, while we cannot explain how God (or any being) can exist in this way (again as One Divine 'Being' eternally existing as Three Divine 'Persons' or 'Individuals') we believe that it is true, nevertheless, because the Bible tells us and shows us that it is.

As a rationalist this is really difficult to follow. The idea of accepting something which, on the surface, makes no sense, simply because it's written in the Bible, makes no sense. There seems to be no explanation for why there are three bits as opposed to four or seven or one. For instance, I would, at least, expect some division of labour between the Divine Persons where each had a purpose which contributed to the whole.

So, the church created the doctrine of the Trinity to help circumscribe and safeguard the truth that the Bible teaches us about the Trinitarian nature of God, NOT to try to explain it to us (because that is FAR beyond any of us, at least for now/on this side of the grave).

This sounds like a doctrine created to justify something we can't explain because we can't explain it.

Do Christians ever ask "Why"?

OB

 

[d taylor]

Understanding the Trinity

As an atheist one of the many things I find confusing about Christianity is the concept of the Trinity;

God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit.​

Part of the problem is understanding the concept of having three ‘God’ entities while at the same time describing them as a single entity.

As an outsider it also seems to me that each of the components of the Trinity would have a specific function or purpose. Is this the case? If not, why have three components?

The most confusing component of the Trinity is the Holy Spirit. Although it’s part of the Trinity it appears to be the least mentioned and the vaguest (to me) part of the Trinity. Although I can more or less understand the God-the-Father/God-the-Son concepts, I have trouble understanding the idea of the Holy Spirit, what it is and where it fits in.



A Request

After more than a decade on CF I’ve found that Christians have a habit of using impenetrable Christian jargon when trying to explain Christian concepts. As a non-Christian much of this jargon can be difficult to follow.

How you respond is up to you however sticking to plain English would help.



OB

-​

So God exist as a Father, A Son and as Spirit they function as their own person but will not function outside of each other. Meaning The Son would not do sometime the Father would not agree with, etc...

 

[Occams Barber]

-​

So God exist as a Father, A Son and as Spirit they function as their own person but will not function outside of each other. Meaning The Son would not do sometime the Father would not agree with, etc...

The fact that they may always agree on whatever it is that they do doesn't explain how they can simultaneously be three entities and one entity.

It also doesn't explain whether they have different functions and why there are three of them.

It also doesn't explain where the Holy Spirit fits in.

Basically, your explanation doesn't seem to explain anything.

OB

 

[d taylor]

The fact that they may always agree on whatever it is that they do doesn't explain how they can simultaneously be three entities and one entity.

It also doesn't explain whether they have different functions and why there are three of them.

It also doesn't explain where the Holy Spirit fits in.

Basically, your explanation doesn't seem to explain anything.

OB

-

​

It is obvious The three Persons of God have different functions. God The Father or God The Holy Spirit did not die on the cross. God as Spirit can not die, but God as Jesus can die because for a moment in time 33 years or so God took on a human body. But actuallY Jesus still has a human body, but a glorified human body

 

[Occams Barber]

-

​

It is obvious The three Persons of God have different functions. God The Father or God The Holy Spirit did not die on the cross. God as Spirit can not die, but God as Jesus can die because for a moment in time 33 years or so God took on a human body.

'Did not die' is not a function. It doesn't explain the point of having three entities and/or the role/function of each entity.

OB

 

[Daniel Marsh]

https://www.calvarychapelboston.com/Biblical%20Basis%20Trinity%20Bowman.pdf

 

[d taylor]

'Did not die' is not a function. It doesn't explain the point of having three entities and/or the role/function of each entity.

OB

Never said it was.

Jesus functions as the visible part of The Trinity. Jesus is the part of The Trinity, who became human.

The Holy Spirit functions as the miracle worker. Jesus did His miracles by the power of The Spirit of God.

God The Father is just that, He functions as The Father He Loves but also disciplines. He is the decision maker He gave the plan for The Son to come to earth and die on the cross. He created The heavens and the earth He did this through God the Son by the power of God the Spirit

 

[d taylor]

-
​

An example.

Let say a person prays to God The Father for a miracle of healing. Now the person is healed, God The Father did not preform the miracle of healing for this person, God The Holy Spirit did.

Also a person prays to God The Father through Jesus. Jesus takes your prayer and advocates to The Father on the believers behalf.

 

[Occams Barber]

-
​

An example.

Let say a person prays to God The Father for a miracle of healing. Now the person is healed, God The Father did not preform the miracle of healing for this person, God The Holy Spirit did.

Also a person prays to God The Father through Jesus. Jesus takes your prayer and advocates to The Father on the believers behalf.

Ok - division of labour?

• Jesus evaluates the project
• The Holy Spirit does the work
• God makes the decisions

What isn't clear is why you need all three. Surely one (presumably God) could easily manage everything.

OB

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

Understanding the Trinity

As an atheist one of the many things I find confusing about Christianity is the concept of the Trinity;

God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit.​

Part of the problem is understanding the concept of having three ‘God’ entities while at the same time describing them as a single entity.

As an outsider it also seems to me that each of the components of the Trinity would have a specific function or purpose. Is this the case? If not, why have three components?

The most confusing component of the Trinity is the Holy Spirit. Although it’s part of the Trinity it appears to be the least mentioned and the vaguest (to me) part of the Trinity. Although I can more or less understand the God-the-Father/God-the-Son concepts, I have trouble understanding the idea of the Holy Spirit, what it is and where it fits in.



A Request

After more than a decade on CF I’ve found that Christians have a habit of using impenetrable Christian jargon when trying to explain Christian concepts. As a non-Christian much of this jargon can be difficult to follow.

How you respond is up to you however sticking to plain English would help.



OB

I understand your frustration - I am a Christian yet also I feel frustrated sometimes with the illogical and seemingly contradictory descriptions given some creeds or church statements. I'll try to formulate some statements as how I've come to learn to think about God, given Biblical sources.

First of all throughout the TNK/OT and NT - to me it seems the usual terminology is: GOD = the Father.

Personally in the 21st century I would never call GOD (=the Father) and the Holy Spirit 'persons' because both are spirits, and as any English dictionary will tell you - in this day and age the term 'person' refers to a human being. GOD (the Father) and the Holy Spirit are identities, but certainly not 'persons' (according to a 21st century English dictionary). Of the three, only Yeshua/Jesus, the Son of GOD, is a person (human being).

In the TNK/OT references to the Holy Spirit seem to be primarily deal with God's anointing, God's presence/power - whereas in the New Covenant books it's both God's presence/force but also an identity who e.g. intercedes for the believers (a.o. see Romans 8:26-27).

The first 350 years of the Church leaders were trying to figure out exactly what to believe about God, Yeshua/Jesus and the Holy Spirit and how to define/express that - opinions varied quite a bit. But it is telling the first two official creeds on the nature of God (AD 325 and AD 381) both begin with these words:

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible.​

 

[Occams Barber]

I understand your frustration - I am a Christian yet also I feel frustrated sometimes with the illogical and seemingly contradictory descriptions given some creeds or church statements. I'll try to formulate some statements as how I've come to learn to think about God, given Biblical sources.

First of all throughout the TNK/OT and NT - to me it seems the usual terminology is: GOD = the Father.

Personally in the 21st century I would never call GOD (=the Father) and the Holy Spirit 'persons' because both are spirits, and as any English dictionary will tell you - in this day and age the term 'person' refers to a human being. GOD (the Father) and the Holy Spirit are identities, but certainly not 'persons' (according to a 21st century English dictionary). Of the three, only Yeshua/Jesus, the Son of GOD, is a person (human being).

In the TNK/OT references to the Holy Spirit seem to be primarily deal with God's anointing, God's presence/power - whereas in the New Covenant books it's both God's presence/force but also an identity who e.g. intercedes for the believers (a.o. see Romans 8:26-27).

The first 350 years of the Church leaders were trying to figure out exactly what to believe about God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit and how to define/express that - opinions varied quite a bit. But it is telling the first two official creeds on the nature of God (AD 325 and AD 381) both begin with these words:

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible.​

You seem to be saying that Christianity is collectively as confused as I am when it comes to understanding the Trinity.

I can (sort of) follow the God Father/Son idea although I can't see why both are necessary. In my more cynical moments I wonder if it (Father/Son) is a way of maintaining continuity between Christianity and the Jewish God.

The Holy Spirit leaves me lost. A couple of posts up there was a suggestion that Holy Spirit was needed to execute miracles. I doubt that Christians would generally accept this idea.

OB

 

[Ceallaigh]

Ok - division of labour?

• Jesus evaluates the project
• The Holy Spirit does the work
• God makes the decisions

What isn't clear is why you need all three. Surely one (presumably God) could easily manage everything.

OB

The question of why there are three is probably something only God knows. We just know from extrapolation that there are three coexisting co-equal beings that are a symbiotic singularly. It's not an easy concept, despite attempts to make it easy to understand.