Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

[EmSw]

I see someone turning away from God. The problem with this verse is who is righteous by his own accord? I believe only Jesus is self righteous. We are made righteous through Him.

The PROBLEM with this verse? Really? Do you think God gave us a PROBLEM verse? Do you think the problem is that God lied? Or maybe, God didn't know about a person who can't be righteous. Or perhaps, God just wanted to waste His time with this verse.

OR MAYBE, the problem is that some men don't believe this truth. It just doesn't jive with their belief, so they just excuse this verse. I hope this hasn't happened with you. Perhaps you will tell us why you don't believe this truth.

Did you not know that a person who practices righteousness is righteous?

1 John 3:7
Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

If you say this cannot be true, John says you are deceiving us. If John's words touches you as the truth, then perhaps you will see the Ezekiel passage in light of the truth.

 

[EmSw]

No, it applies only to those who receive eternal life, which is all who believe in Him.

John 3:16, 36, 5:24, 6:47.

Since you have received eternal life FG2, why not tell us about it. Go into detail about this eternal life. I'm sure a lot of people want to know what eternal life is like. I know I do. Spill the beans; tell us all about eternal life.

Jesus said we will receive eternal life in the age to come. How did you get it early? Were you better than others? Was your faith mightier? Did you believe differently than others? Do you have a special hotline to Jesus? Why are you special that you receive eternal life before the time?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Since you have received eternal life FG2, why not tell us about it. Go into detail about this eternal life. I'm sure a lot of people want to know what eternal life is like. I know I do. Spill the beans; tell us all about eternal life.

That would be possible only for those who have passed from this life to the next life. Seems you're woefully ignorant of this.

Jesus said we will receive eternal life in the age to come.

Well now, you've got a real problem. He said whoever believes HAS (as in the present tense) eternal life.
John 3:16, 5:24, 6:47. Have you snipped these verses out of your Bible yet?

How did you get it early?

Early? I got it the way Jesus said it in John 3:16, 5:24, anf 6:47.

Do you reject these verses?

Were you better than others? Was your faith mightier? Did you believe differently than others? Do you have a special hotline to Jesus?

No, no, no, and no.

Why are you special that you receive eternal life before the time?

Wow do you misunderstand. I received eternal ife exactly WHEN Jesus said I would in John 3:16, 5:24 and 6:47.

 

[EmSw]

That would be possible only for those who have passed from this life to the next life. Seems you're woefully ignorant of this.


Well now, you've got a real problem. He said whoever believes HAS (as in the present tense) eternal life.
John 3:16, 5:24, 6:47. Have you snipped these verses out of your Bible yet?

Early? I got it the way Jesus said it in John 3:16, 5:24, anf 6:47.

Do you reject these verses?


No, no, no, and no.

Wow do you misunderstand. I received eternal ife exactly WHEN Jesus said I would in John 3:16, 5:24 and 6:47.

Mark 10:30
who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time—houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions—and in the age to come, eternal life.

Luke 18:30
who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life.

This is exactly when Jesus said men receive eternal life. So, how did you get it early?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Mark 10:30
who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time—houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions—and in the age to come, eternal life.

Luke 18:30
who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life.

This is exactly when Jesus said men receive eternal life. So, how did you get it early?

I see. you'd just rather keep trying to pit Scripture against itself. But that doesn't surprise me, given your disdain for so many writers of Scripture, just because they all refute your Pharisaical views.

I gave you John 3:16, 5:24 and 6:47. I guess you actually did snip them out of your Bible.

When "eternal life" is used in conjunction with "age to come", it's an obvious reference to eternity itself.

But when verses plainly say that whoever believes HAS eternal life, it ain't speaking about something in the future. It means our regenerated spirit NOW possesses eternal life, and has passed from death to life, and will NOT come into condemnation.

You see, I CAN and DO provide verses that support my claims.

 

[EmSw]

I see. you'd just rather keep trying to pit Scripture against itself. But that doesn't surprise me, given your disdain for so many writers of Scripture, just because they all refute your Pharisaical views.

I gave you John 3:16, 5:24 and 6:47. I guess you actually did snip them out of your Bible.

When "eternal life" is used in conjunction with "age to come", it's an obvious reference to eternity itself.

But when verses plainly say that whoever believes HAS eternal life, it ain't speaking about something in the future. It means our regenerated spirit NOW possesses eternal life, and has passed from death to life, and will NOT come into condemnation.

You see, I CAN and DO provide verses that support my claims.

I provided verses also, and you explained 'eternal life' away in those two verses. What makes you think 'eternal life' in John 10:28 isn't speaking of eternity?

 

[BNR32FAN]

The PROBLEM with this verse? Really? Do you think God gave us a PROBLEM verse? Do you think the problem is that God lied? Or maybe, God didn't know about a person who can't be righteous. Or perhaps, God just wanted to waste His time with this verse.

OR MAYBE, the problem is that some men don't believe this truth. It just doesn't jive with their belief, so they just excuse this verse. I hope this hasn't happened with you. Perhaps you will tell us why you don't believe this truth.

Did you not know that a person who practices righteousness is righteous?

1 John 3:7
Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

If you say this cannot be true, John says you are deceiving us. If John's words touches you as the truth, then perhaps you will see the Ezekiel passage in light of the truth.

I get what your saying but who doesn’t sin? Everyone sins. This was written after Jesus came to die for our sins. I believe the parts that are in bold letters are referring to His second coming.

“Dear friends, we are already God’s children, but he has not yet shown us what we will be like when Christ appears. But we do know that we will be like him, for we will see him as he really is. And all who have this eager expectation will keep themselves pure, just as he is pure. Everyone who sins is breaking God’s law, for all sin is contrary to the law of God. And you know that Jesus came to take away our sins, and there is no sin in him. Anyone who continues to live in him will not sin. But anyone who keeps on sinning does not know him or understand who he is. Dear children, don’t let anyone deceive you about this: When people do what is right, it shows that they are righteous, even as Christ is righteous. But when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil. Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God. So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil. Anyone who does not live righteously and does not love other believers does not belong to God.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:2-10‬

But look at Romans 3:9-20

“Well then, should we conclude that we Jews are better than others? No, not at all, for we have already shown that all people, whether Jews or Gentiles, are under the power of sin. As the Scriptures say, “No one is righteous— not even one. No one is truly wise; no one is seeking God. All have turned away; all have become useless. No one does good, not a single one.” “Their talk is foul, like the stench from an open grave. Their tongues are filled with lies.” “Snake venom drips from their lips.” “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.” “They rush to commit murder. Destruction and misery always follow them. They don’t know where to find peace.” “They have no fear of God at all.” Obviously, the law applies to those to whom it was given, for its purpose is to keep people from having excuses, and to show that the entire world is guilty before God. For no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:9-20

So which is true? Are we righteous or not? Perhaps John means we are made righteous by doing righteousness. I’m inclined to believe that we are all sinners no matter how hard we try to refrain we will fail. I believe that by believing in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior and walking in the spirit we are made righteous. What are your thoughts?

 

[EmSw]

I get what your saying but who doesn’t sin? Everyone sins. This was written after Jesus came to die for our sins. I believe the parts that are in bold letters are referring to His second coming.

“Dear friends, we are already God’s children, but he has not yet shown us what we will be like when Christ appears. But we do know that we will be like him, for we will see him as he really is. And all who have this eager expectation will keep themselves pure, just as he is pure. Everyone who sins is breaking God’s law, for all sin is contrary to the law of God. And you know that Jesus came to take away our sins, and there is no sin in him. Anyone who continues to live in him will not sin. But anyone who keeps on sinning does not know him or understand who he is. Dear children, don’t let anyone deceive you about this: When people do what is right, it shows that they are righteous, even as Christ is righteous. But when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil. Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God. So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil. Anyone who does not live righteously and does not love other believers does not belong to God.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:2-10‬

But look at Romans 3:9-20

“Well then, should we conclude that we Jews are better than others? No, not at all, for we have already shown that all people, whether Jews or Gentiles, are under the power of sin. As the Scriptures say, “No one is righteous— not even one. No one is truly wise; no one is seeking God. All have turned away; all have become useless. No one does good, not a single one.” “Their talk is foul, like the stench from an open grave. Their tongues are filled with lies.” “Snake venom drips from their lips.” “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.” “They rush to commit murder. Destruction and misery always follow them. They don’t know where to find peace.” “They have no fear of God at all.” Obviously, the law applies to those to whom it was given, for its purpose is to keep people from having excuses, and to show that the entire world is guilty before God. For no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:9-20

So which is true? Are we righteous or not? Perhaps John means we are made righteous by doing righteousness. I’m inclined to believe that we are all sinners no matter how hard we try to refrain we will fail. I believe that by believing in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior and walking in the spirit we are made righteous. What are your thoughts?

My thought is righteousness does not mean without sin. Zachariah and Elizabeth were righteous before God.

Luke 1
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Why were they righteous? Was it because they didn't sin? No. It was because they walked in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. It was because of what they did. I don't think they made any excuses as Paul says.

I also don't think these attribute Paul gives has anything to do with Zachariah and Elizabeth.

"All have turned away; all have become useless. No one does good, not a single one.” “Their talk is foul, like the stench from an open grave. Their tongues are filled with lies.” “Snake venom drips from their lips.” “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.” “They rush to commit murder. Destruction and misery always follow them. They don’t know where to find peace.” “They have no fear of God at all.”

Do you really think their talk was foul like a stench from the grave? Do you really think they had snake venom dripping from their lips? Do you think they were full of cursing and bitterness? Do you think they rushed to commit murder? Do you think they had no fear of God?

I think Paul was using the words of those wicked people who say there is no god and applied it to everyone. It's obvious he didn't know anything about Zachariah and Elizabeth. And if he spoke by the HS, surely we wouldn't have spoken these things against them, as he would have known they were righteous before God and were blameless in all the commandments and ordinances of God.

How many of the things of which Paul stated described you before conversion? Was your mouth FULL of cursing and bitterness? Did you rush to commit murder? Did snake venom drip from your lips? Was your talk foul and full of stench? Just wondering.

 

[BNR32FAN]

My thought is righteousness does not mean without sin. Zachariah and Elizabeth were righteous before God.

Luke 1
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Why were they righteous? Was it because they didn't sin? No. It was because they walked in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. It was because of what they did. I don't think they made any excuses as Paul says.

I also don't think these attribute Paul gives has anything to do with Zachariah and Elizabeth.

"All have turned away; all have become useless. No one does good, not a single one.” “Their talk is foul, like the stench from an open grave. Their tongues are filled with lies.” “Snake venom drips from their lips.” “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.” “They rush to commit murder. Destruction and misery always follow them. They don’t know where to find peace.” “They have no fear of God at all.”

Do you really think their talk was foul like a stench from the grave? Do you really think they had snake venom dripping from their lips? Do you think they were full of cursing and bitterness? Do you think they rushed to commit murder? Do you think they had no fear of God?

I think Paul was using the words of those wicked people who say there is no god and applied it to everyone. It's obvious he didn't know anything about Zachariah and Elizabeth. And if he spoke by the HS, surely we wouldn't have spoke these things against them, as he would have known they were righteous before God and were blameless in all the commandments and ordinances of God.

How many of the things of which Paul stated described you before conversion? Was your mouth FULL of cursing and bitterness? Did you rush to commit murder? Did snake venom drip from your lips? Was your talk foul and full of stench? Just wondering.

My thought is righteousness does not mean without sin. Zachariah and Elizabeth were righteous before God.

Luke 1
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Why were they righteous? Was it because they didn't sin? No. It was because they walked in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. It was because of what they did. I don't think they made any excuses as Paul says.

I also don't think these attribute Paul gives has anything to do with Zachariah and Elizabeth.

"All have turned away; all have become useless. No one does good, not a single one.” “Their talk is foul, like the stench from an open grave. Their tongues are filled with lies.” “Snake venom drips from their lips.” “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.” “They rush to commit murder. Destruction and misery always follow them. They don’t know where to find peace.” “They have no fear of God at all.”

Do you really think their talk was foul like a stench from the grave? Do you really think they had snake venom dripping from their lips? Do you think they were full of cursing and bitterness? Do you think they rushed to commit murder? Do you think they had no fear of God?

I think Paul was using the words of those wicked people who say there is no god and applied it to everyone. It's obvious he didn't know anything about Zachariah and Elizabeth. And if he spoke by the HS, surely we wouldn't have spoke these things against them, as he would have known they were righteous before God and were blameless in all the commandments and ordinances of God.

How many of the things of which Paul stated described you before conversion? Was your mouth FULL of cursing and bitterness? Did you rush to commit murder? Did snake venom drip from your lips? Was your talk foul and full of stench? Just wondering.

I was a terrible sinner about 6 years ago. As far as rushing to commit murder I would say that could be interpreted to quick to hate someone which would be an accurate description of my old self. I had a short fuse in the past and quick to lose my temper. I think that Elizabeth, Noah, Job, and everyone who is considered righteous in the Bible with the exception of Jesus most likely did commit the sins Paul discussed at least once in their lifetime. Perhaps before or early in their faith. I think your explanation of righteousness coincides with the scriptures.

 

[EmSw]

I was a terrible sinner about 6 years ago. As far as rushing to commit murder I would say that could be interpreted to quick to hate someone which would be an accurate description of my old self. I had a short fuse in the past and quick to lose my temper. I think that Elizabeth, Noah, Job, and everyone who is considered righteous in the Bible with the exception of Jesus most likely did commit the sins Paul discussed at least once in their lifetime. Perhaps before or early in their faith. I think your explanation of righteousness coincides with the scriptures.

Well, I can tell you I have never had snake venom dripping from my lips; my mouth was never full of cursing and bitterness. This is speaking of those who say there is no God, workers of iniquity.

Psalm 14
1 The fool has said in his heart,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt,
They have done abominable works,
There is none who does good.
2 The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
3 They have all turned aside,
They have together become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one.
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge,
Who eat up my people as they eat bread,
And do not call on the Lord?
5 There they are in great fear,
For God is with the generation of the righteous.
6 You shame the counsel of the poor,
But the Lord is his refuge.

It is these workers of iniquity 'who eat up my people as they eat bread and do not call on the Lord'

These are not the people God is with, 'For God is with the generation of the righteous.

So we see, these workers of iniquity who say there is no God are the ones who are as vile as Paul presented. And as see above, there were righteous people with whom God is with.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Well, I can tell you I have never had snake venom dripping from my lips; my mouth was never full of cursing and bitterness. This is speaking of those who say there is no God, workers of iniquity.

Psalm 14
1 The fool has said in his heart,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt,
They have done abominable works,
There is none who does good.
2 The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
3 They have all turned aside,
They have together become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one.
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge,
Who eat up my people as they eat bread,
And do not call on the Lord?
5 There they are in great fear,
For God is with the generation of the righteous.
6 You shame the counsel of the poor,
But the Lord is his refuge.

It is these workers of iniquity 'who eat up my people as they eat bread and do not call on the Lord'

These are not the people God is with, 'For God is with the generation of the righteous.

So we see, these workers of iniquity who say there is no God are the ones who are as vile as Paul presented. And as see above, there were righteous people with whom God is with.

Have you ever said someone was an idiot or stupid? I’m not saying that to be rude or disrespectful. I only ask because that would be snake venom dripping from your lips.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I provided verses also, and you explained 'eternal life' away in those two verses. What makes you think 'eternal life' in John 10:28 isn't speaking of eternity?

Because of what Jesus actually SAID. He said, "I GIVE THEM eternal life". What tense did Jesus use there? Hint: it wasn't the future tense.

That's why.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Well, I can tell you I have never had snake venom dripping from my lips; my mouth was never full of cursing and bitterness.

I'd say all your mocking of the cross comes mighty close.

 

[EmSw]

Because of what Jesus actually SAID. He said, "I GIVE THEM eternal life". What tense did Jesus use there? Hint: it wasn't the future tense.

That's why.

Let's see what tense this verse is, okay?

Luke 18:30
who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life.

We have present tense (receive many times more IN THIS PRESENT TIME), and future tense (receive eternal life IN THE AGE TO COME).

I know it kills you to admit you are wrong, but you ARE WRONG!

 

[EmSw]

I'd say all your mocking of the cross comes mighty close.

Is this a free grace doctine? Or, did you make something up again?

 

[EmSw]

Have you ever said someone was an idiot or stupid? I’m not saying that to be rude or disrespectful. I only ask because that would be snake venom dripping from your lips.

You have never been disrespectful to me, and I appreciate it.

However, from my understanding, snake venom kills. Calling someone an idiot or stupid would not kill them. What would kill someone coming from my lips, would be telling others to disregard, ignore, and change Jesus' words which have to do with eternal life and salvation.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Because of what Jesus actually SAID. He said, "I GIVE THEM eternal life". What tense did Jesus use there? Hint: it wasn't the future tense.

That's why.

The people in the book of life will be given eternal life but only the ones who are victorious will never be blotted out of the book of life. Again evidence of people being able to be blotted out of the book of life.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You have never been disrespectful to me, and I appreciate it.

However, from my understanding, snake venom kills. Calling someone an idiot or stupid would not kill them. What would kill someone coming from my lips, would be telling others to disregard, ignore, and change Jesus' words which have to do with eternal life and salvation.

I must admit you have also always been very kind and polite even tho we do disagree sometimes. I think we can both agree that being polite and showing compassion is the only way to teach someone who disagrees with your point of view. Being rude and trying to force someone to understand your point of view will never result in success. That type of behavior discredits an individual and also provoked a defensive position in which causes the person to push back. Once that happens you can pretty much forget about convincing that person of anything. I think it’s best to just always stay polite and give scripture references supporting your point. Maybe discussing it a little bit if they don’t agree then just let it go for now. You’ve planted the seeds so let others come along and plant also and trust that the Holy Spirit will not forsake someone who is seeking and knocking and He is faithful to finish what He has started in someone.

 

[EmSw]

I must admit you have also always been very kind and polite even tho we do disagree sometimes. I think we can both agree that being polite and showing compassion is the only way to teach someone who disagrees with your point of view. Being rude and trying to force someone to understand your point of view will never result in success. That type of behavior discredits an individual and also provoked a defensive position in which causes the person to push back. Once that happens you can pretty much forget about convincing that person of anything. I think it’s best to just always stay polite and give scripture references supporting your point. Maybe discussing it a little bit if they don’t agree then just let it go for now. You’ve planted the seeds so let others come along and plant also and trust that the Holy Spirit will not forsake someone who is seeking and knocking and He is faithful to finish what He has started in someone.

Thank you for your kind words. Once we get to heaven, all truth will be presented to us. Everyone will see the truth and will then decide whether to believe it or not. Those who have steadfastly confirmed themselves in their doctrines will have a most grievous and difficult time accepting the truth.

What it all comes down to is how a person lived their life on this earth. Once a person dies, they cannot change their ways, whether evil or good. Their way of living is who they are.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Thank you for your kind words. Once we get to heaven, all truth will be presented to us. Everyone will see the truth and will then decide whether to believe it or not. Those who have steadfastly confirmed themselves in their doctrines will have a most grievous and difficult time accepting the truth.

What it all comes down to is how a person lived their life on this earth. Once a person dies, they cannot change their ways, whether evil or good. Their way of living is who they are.

What I worry about is complacency in many Christians who believe in faith alone. To me Jesus has made it very clear that people who indulge in sin and don’t do good works won’t enter heaven. Unfortunately many people like faith alone because it doesn’t require any effort or even repentance. It’s easy just say you believe and bam you have eternal life. There is no evidence of being born again or walking in the Spirit in some of these people. Of course not all who believe in faith alone live this way. But for me if I’m going to teach the gospel I feel it is my duty to warn people about complacency in Christianity.

 

[Marco70]

The people in the book of life will be given eternal life but only the ones who are victorious will never be blotted out of the book of life. Again evidence of people being able to be blotted out of the book of life.

I think the parable of the sower is good.
In the second example, people made a shallow commitment,when trials and persecutions came they walked away. So they were initially in a saved state but lost it
In the third example, people kept getting sidetracked by worldly things during their walk. Jesus said they did not mature, he didn't say they walked away or lost their salvation. You mature in the faith by practicing doing right from wrong.

So you could say, one group had their names blotted out, the other group never did, despite continually being sidetracked from the path they should have been on